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enta

With 200 Jumps loading 1,46 (Sabre 2 135)

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Hello.

So i´m going to get a new rig and thinking about downsizing.

I want to buy a curve 2 from RI and use it as long as possible.

At the moment I have a sabre 2 150 (80 Jumps on it) and i think i will go with a 135 next season.

I´m really into canopy piloting from the first moment on and participated on 2 canopy piloting courses already.
I landet crosswinds muliple times with no problems and i feel perfectly safe with my 150.

I know 1,46wl is pretty fast for only 200 jumps and i know i have to be damn careful if i step up to a 135.
I´m totally aware of the fact, that most accidents happen around this lvl of experience and i still want to purchase a smaller one, because i think i can handle it.

I wouldn´t downsize if everyone would tell me that it´s a stupid idea :)

So i asked my instructor and his answer in summary was like:"If you are carefull and take it easy at the beginning, it should be fine".

After that i asked my Rigger who is extremely experienced and he said basicly the same.
I would definitly go for another control course.

And now i read in this forum for the first time and see so many ppl. really really taking it super slow and super safe and i ask myself, am i doing it too fast?

I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go for it anyways, but i´m still interested in your opinions and how fast/slow you downsized.

Thanks for your comments in advance and sorry for my writing, i´m not a native english speaker.

greetings.

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enta



I know 1,46wl is pretty fast for only 200 jumps and i know i have to be damn careful if i step up to a 135.
I´m totally aware of the fact, that most accidents happen around this lvl of experience and i still want to purchase a smaller one, because i think i can handle it.

I wouldn´t downsize if everyone would tell me that it´s a stupid idea :)

So i asked my instructor and his answer in summary was like:"If you are carefull and take it easy at the beginning, it should be fine".

And now i read in this forum for the first time and see so many ppl. really really taking it super slow and super safe and i ask myself, am i doing it too fast?

I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go for it anyways,



You already know.

Why ask for advice that you are determined to ignore?
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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Southern_Man

***

I know 1,46wl is pretty fast for only 200 jumps and i know i have to be damn careful if i step up to a 135.
I´m totally aware of the fact, that most accidents happen around this lvl of experience and i still want to purchase a smaller one, because i think i can handle it.

I wouldn´t downsize if everyone would tell me that it´s a stupid idea :)

So i asked my instructor and his answer in summary was like:"If you are carefull and take it easy at the beginning, it should be fine".

And now i read in this forum for the first time and see so many ppl. really really taking it super slow and super safe and i ask myself, am i doing it too fast?

I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go for it anyways,



You already know.

Why ask for advice that you are determined to ignore?

Propably is not definitely and like i said I´m interested in opinions and expereinces.

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I'm also kinda tired of these sort of questions. No one will advise you that it's a good idea, you already know that. Skydiving is an adult sport. Assess the risks and make a decision you can live with, whatever the consequences. Don't come here asking for permission. Man up.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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If you are smart, you'll go up to a 170 main and reserve combo, but I know you won't.

I'd like dibs on your gear when you fly yourself into the ground.

PS two weeks ago I was talking to a nearly identical dude, and a day later I was visiting him in the hospital with a turn taint, broken toes and fused lumbar.

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gowlerk

I'm also kinda tired of these sort of questions. No one will advise you that it's a good idea, you already know that. Skydiving is an adult sport. Assess the risks and make a decision you can live with, whatever the consequences. Don't come here asking for permission. Man up.



Oh you are tired of that, i´m really sorry to hear that, so you propably shouldn´t answer to questions of this kind.

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likestojump

If you are smart, you'll go up to a 170 main and reserve combo, but I know you won't.

I'd like dibs on your gear when you fly yourself into the ground.

PS two weeks ago I was talking to a nearly identical dude, and a day later I was visiting him in the hospital with a turn taint, broken toes and fused lumbar.



No i won´t, but still considering to stay @ 150 (wih my 160 reserve).
The main reason i want to go with a 135 is that i think it´s okay when I just go for straight landings and really slowly built up speed.
I definitely won´t swoop or even do a 90° / double front risers, just really slowly get used to it.


And the other is, that both my instructor and rigger said if i´m carful it should be fine.
Both know me well and so they should know, that im not an irrational person.

But to be shure, thats it´s only a light dumb idea and not a totally stupid idea, i thought i ask the "masses" for their opinion.

@Freak: Thanks for the links, after watching the videos i really feel bad for Sangi :(
But I think there is a big difference between slowly getting used to a smaller chute or going for a radical 270° swoop.

I am not considering to swoop within the next 300 jumps, a month ago a friend @ my DZ hit the ground, because he thought he can handle a 270° with around 300 jumps.

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enta

***I'm also kinda tired of these sort of questions. No one will advise you that it's a good idea, you already know that. Skydiving is an adult sport. Assess the risks and make a decision you can live with, whatever the consequences. Don't come here asking for permission. Man up.



Oh you are tired of that, i´m really sorry to hear that, so you propably shouldn´t answer to questions of this kind.

Maybe if you add your personal information to to your profile it will look less trolly?

Also, if you're not a troll did you sign a waiver and will your family promise not to sue the DZ?

Lastly I would wait for another 200 jumps to fly over a 1.4 if I were you, which I'm not, obviously.

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enta


And the other is, that both my instructor and rigger said if i´m carful it should be fine.
Both know me well and so they should know, that im not an irrational person.

But to be shure, thats it´s only a light dumb idea and not a totally stupid idea, i thought i ask the "masses" for their opinion.



No it is a stupid idea, and your instructors are stupid to go along with it. The stupidity is compounded by the fact that you are light, and at that loading you are flying smaller canopies with smaller line lengths. 1.4 with a fat guy on a 190 isn't the same as 1.4 on a 135, it doesn't scale, and you aren't on the less riskier side of the spectrum.

You may breeze through and gain the experience before it bites you in the ass, but that doesn't confirm that it was a good idea.

Or you may end up with metal hardware and a lengthy period of rehab.

The real issue is that you can't always be conservative or careful. Landing off, getting cut in a pattern, having a bad day or a bad jump because you a human. It isn't the 99 landings where you get away with it, it is the one where it catches up with you because your flying a wing you aren't ready for.

Good luck.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Trafficdiver

******I'm also kinda tired of these sort of questions. No one will advise you that it's a good idea, you already know that. Skydiving is an adult sport. Assess the risks and make a decision you can live with, whatever the consequences. Don't come here asking for permission. Man up.



Oh you are tired of that, i´m really sorry to hear that, so you propably shouldn´t answer to questions of this kind.

Maybe if you add your personal information to to your profile it will look less trolly?

Also, if you're not a troll did you sign a waiver and will your family promise not to sue the DZ?

Lastly I would wait for another 200 jumps to fly over a 1.4 if I were you, which I'm not, obviously.

No i´m not a troll, but i unterstand your thoughts, i would think the same :)
There is no reason to sue the DZ because of me beeing stupid.
Maybe i really should go for the vk1 and stay with my 150, i was aware of the fact, that most ppl. would recomment to take it slower, but not of the fact, that so many will feel trolled/offendet just by a simple question.

Some slighty rude answers within a short amount of time even tough so many canadians, i thought they are the nicest people in the world :D

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DougH

***
And the other is, that both my instructor and rigger said if i´m carful it should be fine.
Both know me well and so they should know, that im not an irrational person.

But to be shure, thats it´s only a light dumb idea and not a totally stupid idea, i thought i ask the "masses" for their opinion.



No it is a stupid idea, and your instructors are stupid to go along with it. The stupidity is compounded by the fact that you are light, and at that loading you are flying smaller canopies with smaller line lengths. 1.4 with a fat guy on a 190 isn't the same as 1.4 on a 135, it doesn't scale, and you aren't on the less riskier side of the spectrum.

You may breeze through and gain the experience before it bites you in the ass, but that doesn't confirm that it was a good idea.

Or you may end up with metal hardware and a lengthy period of rehab.

The real issue is that you can't always be conservative or careful. Landing off, getting cut in a pattern, having a bad day or a bad jump because you a human. It isn't the 99 landings where you get away with it, it is the one where it catches up with you because your flying a wing you aren't ready for.

Good luck.

Thank you Dough, the first really helpfull answer of the day, that makes me think.

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Seriously answer this question to yourself, "What is most important for me in the sport of Skydiving?"

If the answer is "To keep skydiving", then you must promote that goal by playing it safe over playing it to the hilt. Otherwise you are kidding yourself about your priorities.

Many play it out like this...."I will go hard and fast until I am in the hospital or dead, and then I will reevaluate my risks, skills, and choices". They never say that and maybe they never think that, but that is the behavior. People tend to say one thing and do something different. Be honest with yourself.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Hi Hames, thanks for your answer.

I know what you mean, there are lots of personalitys on my DZ like you described.
You are right, i should be honest and to be honest, i really want to go faster.

But please don´t get me wrong, i don´t mean going from zero to 270° swoops.
What i mean is starting with light pressure on the front and come in straight for the first (rng) jumps it takes to build up confidence and skill.

I thought it shouldn´t make a big difference between going in the fronts or going for a 135 and land without risers.

But the point of beeing able to manage uncomfy situations and risky landings is really good.
So i think going to build up a bit more speed on my 150 should be less dangerous than go for a 135.

I am honest if I say i want to gain more speed and i will gain more speed, i know that for shure, even tough i know it´s not the smartest move in history.

I startet to do pretty low turns on the toggle and because i know i can´t contain myself, i think it is better to learn it the right way.

Sorry, now that i read it, i bet you think i´m completely retarded,
can´t say exactly what i think because of weak english skills, but i hope you get the idea.

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DougH

The real issue is that you can't always be conservative or careful. Landing off, getting cut in a pattern, having a bad day or a bad jump because you a human. It isn't the 99 landings where you get away with it, it is the one where it catches up with you because your flying a wing you aren't ready for.



I'd like to second this. What matters isn't if you can stand up your landings, or land crosswind/downwind, or land accurately, when everything goes well. What matters is what you do when something goes wrong, or when something unexpected happens.

I have had kids, dogs, whuffo tandem spectators with cameras stuck to their faces, etc, suddenly run in front of me just as I was landing. I've been cut off by other canopies very close to the ground. No time to think about how to avoid them, it's a situation of reacting on instinct. It takes time to build the reactions necessary to avoid the person without hurting yourself.

A good friend of mine was injured 6 months ago and is still in hospital recovering from physical injuries and a serious brain injury. Hopefully she recovers enough to be able to work, and perhaps even skydive, again, but that's unknown at this point. We might know in another year. She was landing off due to a long spot, and didn't see a power line until the last second. Her reaction to avoid it turned her into the ground. She could have avoided it with, at worst, a dirty jumpsuit, if she had reacted differently. You have to train those reactions, however, and it takes time to do that. The higher the wingloading, the faster the canopy, the more responsive the canopy, the less time you have to react, and the more time it takes to train those reactions. Get those reactions well trained, then downsize, then start training those reactions again.

By the way, my friend had more jumps in the 4 months prior to her accident than you have total, and was flying a similar canopy (150, 9 cell, non-elliptical) at a similar wingloading.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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"I want to go fast"

You will go faster in the long run through a safer more conservative progression because you will learn more fundamentals and will have a better foundation to build off of.

Let me draw an analogy, I take two kids, and I teach them to swim. One of them I put in swimming classes, the other I throw out of a helicopter over open water. Who do you think is going to progress into a better swimmer?

When you are treading water, or in this case trying to make sure that your canopy isn't one step ahead of you because it is above your skill level, you will be in survival mode, not learning mode.

You will be a better canopy in the long run by taking your time.

You are also way less dangerous to other jumpers by taking your time. Do you want to go fast at the expense of others safety?
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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>I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go
>for it anyways, but i´m still interested in your opinions and how fast/slow you
>downsized.

Once you can take your 150 under almost any conditions and:

-stand up 100% of your landings
-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet
-flare turn at least 45 degrees
-land standing in a crosswind
-land safely downwind
-land reliably, standing up, within a 10 meter circle
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing
-land standing up on slight uphills and downhills
-land with rear risers

then you might be ready to downsize. Can you do all that?

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billvon

>I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go
>for it anyways, but i´m still interested in your opinions and how fast/slow you
>downsized.

Once you can take your 150 under almost any conditions and:

-stand up 100% of your landings
-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet
-flare turn at least 45 degrees
-land standing in a crosswind
-land safely downwind
-land reliably, standing up, within a 10 meter circle
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing
-land standing up on slight uphills and downhills
-land with rear risers

then you might be ready to downsize. Can you do all that?



Most of us have who have been on dropzone.com for a while have seen this, here's a more detailed version of billvon's post (also written by him):
http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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billvon

>I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go
>for it anyways, but i´m still interested in your opinions and how fast/slow you
>downsized.

Once you can take your 150 under almost any conditions and:

-stand up 100% of your landings Check (Within the last 30 jumps, except the one i tried to hit the inflatable pool)

-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet Check (toggles)
-flare turn at least 45 degrees Check
-land standing in a crosswind Check
-land safely downwind no downwinds so far
-land reliably, standing up, within a 10 meter circle almost
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing Nope
-land standing up on slight uphills and downhills it´s like netherlands on my DZ
-land with rear risers Wouldn´t do this if not necessary.

then you might be ready to downsize. Can you do all that?

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billvon

>I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go
>for it anyways, but i´m still interested in your opinions and how fast/slow you
>downsized.

Once you can take your 150 under almost any conditions and:

-stand up 100% of your landings
-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet
-flare turn at least 45 degrees
-land standing in a crosswind
-land safely downwind
-land reliably, standing up, within a 10 meter circle
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing
-land standing up on slight uphills and downhills
-land with rear risers

then you might be ready to downsize. Can you do all that?



+1 million

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