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raphaelistics

Jump #37 - Hop’nPop Double Malfunction *No Cutaway*

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  • Hey Guys!

Was hoping this post would wait a little longer but it can’t be helped.

Currently on a skydiving trip in Florida celebrating my recently acquired A License.

Stopped by Skydive Sebastian for a few fun jumps.  Did two 14K foot jumps that went great and on my last jump for the day about half way up the Pilot said that we will have to jump low because of clouds.   So we descended to about 4800ft and the last 3 of us ended up doing a hop and pop.

Little did I know that this would be my first encounter with a true malfunction(s).

After about 5 seconds following my stable exit I tossed my pilot and everything seemed to be OK...until I stare up and see a textbook streamer (not talking about slow expansion - this thing was not budging).....after what seemed an eternity all of the sudden the left side of the streamer expands and throws me into a spin creating a 5/6 rotation line twist.  As the line twists are developing, the other side of the main is finally expanding.  All of the sudden just as I finish assessing the situation (this all happens in a matter of seconds), I am developing a strong diagonal descending spin.  The centrifugal forces made my initial kicks VERY difficult to execute and I am trying to decide weather it’s even worth trying to kick or if I should chop then and there.  I look at the twist and notice that it stopped growing worse.  I start kicking for my dear life and little by little I undo one twist at a time until I finally fix the complete line twist.  I am exhausted at this point (and I am a competitive swimmer) and check my altitude.  The twist is fully resolved at 2700ft AGL.  I take a breath of relief and do my control checks when I feel a sudden burn on my left leg:

I kicked so damn hard that I accidentally smashed my right boot (DoD issued combat boots) into my left shin leaving a nasty bruise and swelling but the adrenaline suppressed it all.

I land both upset and proud at myself asking myself what went wrong but also relieved that I was able to handle the situation ok.

Picture of my bruised shin:

3192465E-D2BE-4B29-8842-3CD72AC2F938.jpeg

Edited by raphaelistics

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Just now, ghost47 said:

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the story, but where was the double malfunction?

He talking about 1)  the streamer that solved itself eventually and 2) the diving line twist that was caused by the streamer that he had to put in work to get out of.

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1 hour ago, ghost47 said:

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the story, but where was the double malfunction?

Husslr187 clarified it.

I had two back to back malfunctions on the main - the reserve was never deployed or attempted to be deployed.

Not sure if the term double malfunction only applies to multiple malfunctions on separate canopies or not.

 

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Most people would think a double mal as a malfunctioning main and a malfunctioning reserve following a chop regardless of how many different problems either have.

I would suggest getting different shoes besides boots. Boots are made to grab which could break an ankle when you plane out on landing. I find basketball shoes work well. Doesn’t have to be  special like Jordan's but I look for shallow narrow tread and decent cushion. Some like skateboarder shoes for that reason as well.

as for the mal, sub terminal opening can do funky things sometimes. I’m not really qualified to speculate on how it happened but I would have a rigger watch you pack as I believe the problem is there. I could be wrong but it doesn’t hurt. Beer will likely be owed 

: I wanted to have this in my first post but I was working at the time:

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2 minutes ago, husslr187 said:

Most people would think a double mal as a malfunctioning main and a malfunctioning reserve following a chop regardless of how many different problems either have.

I would suggest getting different shoes besides boots. Boots are made to grab which could break an ankle when you plane out on landing. I find basketball shoes work well. Doesn’t have to be  special like Jordan's but I look for shallow narrow tread and decent cushion. Some like skateboarder shoes for that reason as well.

as for the mal, sub terminal opening can do funky things sometimes. I’m not really qualified to speculate on how it happened but I would have a rigger watch you pack as I believe the problem is there. I could be wrong but it doesn’t hurt. Beer will likely be owed 

: I wanted to have this in my first post but I was working at the time:

The rig was a rental rig with a packer included.   Yea I see jumpers do hop’n’pops two different ways:

 

1) jump and pull immediately when stable

2) jump and wait 7-10 seconds in order to pick up vertical speed before pull

 

Assuming you lose about 1000ft of altitude in the first 7-10 seconds when jumping from a turbo prop, I see this as a viable and safer rout for 4500ft and up hop n pops.

I rather have a stable clean deployment sequence at 3500ft than a line twist and dive at 4000ft with a potential chop.

I was advised that we also had very low ground speed which I can also see as a factor.

 

 

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First off, what's a streamer on a square? I've always equated streamers with round canopies.

Did the slider hang up? Not super uncommon on sub-terminal jumps.

6 minutes ago, raphaelistics said:

I was advised that we also had very low ground speed which I can also see as a factor.

How? How can ground speed be a factor when you are completely independent of the ground?

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26 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

First off, what's a streamer on a square? I've always equated streamers with round canopies.

Did the slider hang up? Not super uncommon on sub-terminal jumps.

The way this question was worded is making me think my answer about packing to be wrong. All the factors I’m thinking of now is, 5 second delay, slow deployment due to lower air speed, low experience flying through deployment sequence (37 jumps but maybe not,I haven’t seen you jump so idk) and one side inflating first causing line twist. I can damn near visualize it happening.

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(edited)
7 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

First off, what's a streamer on a square? I've always equated streamers with round canopies.

Did the slider hang up? Not super uncommon on sub-terminal jumps.

How? How can ground speed be a factor when you are completely independent of the ground?

Slider hangups and streamers go hand in hand from what I have seen.
Like the slider interrupts airflow to the canopy.

As for ground speed, I am indirectly referring to horizontal speed of the aircraft.
Winds weren't crazy so the fact that we had low ground speed, tells me that we were not moving horizontally fast at all.
I feel that in a hop and pop where the aircraft moves at 70 knots on jump run, your rig will catch much less air than say a jump run going 110 knots if you deploy immediately upon exit because at that point your vertical fall rate will probably be even less.
Speculating.
That being said it does not matter on a Max Altitude jump obviously because you reach a much faster terminal velocity falling between 14,000ft and deployment altitude.

fjc-malfunctions-24-728.jpg

Edited by raphaelistics

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2 hours ago, raphaelistics said:

Slider hangups and streamers go hand in hand from what I have seen.
Like the slider interrupts airflow to the canopy.

As for ground speed, I am indirectly referring to horizontal speed of the aircraft.
Winds weren't crazy so the fact that we had low ground speed, tells me that we were not moving horizontally fast at all.
I feel that in a hop and pop where the aircraft moves at 70 knots on jump run, your rig will catch much less air than say a jump run going 110 knots if you deploy immediately upon exit because at that point your vertical fall rate will probably be even less.
Speculating.
That being said it does not matter on a Max Altitude jump obviously because you reach a much faster terminal velocity falling between 14,000ft and deployment altitude.

fjc-malfunctions-24-728.jpg

Ground speed has absolutely nothing to do with your opening, Air speed does. Just because the plane is only moving 40knots across the ground, doesn’t mean it isn’t pushing through the air at 110knots. One of the few things you need ground speed for is to figure out how much time you should wait between group so everyone can open up in their own airspace. Regardless you are independent from the ground And the only thing that effect your opening is the pack job, condition of the equipment, how fast the air is and how you fly your body through deployment. 

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Just a note from me, you mentioned that you checked your altitude only one time when you cleared the line twist right?

Others can correct me but since I have line twists in half of my jumps(due to bad packing), the first thing that I do when I see a malfunction (and every 5 sec after that) is checking my altitude not to miss my decision altitude.

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On 6/12/2019 at 12:46 PM, raphaelistics said:

Slider hangups and streamers go hand in hand from what I have seen.
Like the slider interrupts airflow to the canopy.

As for ground speed, I am indirectly referring to horizontal speed of the aircraft.
Winds weren't crazy so the fact that we had low ground speed, tells me that we were not moving horizontally fast at all.
I feel that in a hop and pop where the aircraft moves at 70 knots on jump run, your rig will catch much less air than say a jump run going 110 knots if you deploy immediately upon exit because at that point your vertical fall rate will probably be even less.
Speculating.
That being said it does not matter on a Max Altitude jump obviously because you reach a much faster terminal velocity falling between 14,000ft and deployment altitude.

 

Ok, I don't recall ever hearing the word 'streamer' associated with a square. But it's been a while since my FJC. 
The slider is supposed to interrupt air to the nose of the canopy. It also 'chokes' it off (holding the lines close together. If it didn't, you'd have VERY hard openings. 
If it stays up, then there's a problem.


For your exit, ground speed is irrelevant (disregarding exit separation - it matters there). 
While it's true that a 70kt airspeed on jump run will be different than a 110 kt, the same plane will normally fly the same speed on jump run. 70kts is 182 speed, 110 is King air speed. A 182 can't do 110 on jump run, you can't open the door at that speed (door open is limited to 100 IIRC). And a KA won't do 70 on jump run because it would fall out of the sky.
Headwinds will give a lower ground speed on jump run (requiring longer exit separation), but that makes absolutely zero difference in how you exit or the 'feel' of the air out the door. 

The best example I can offer as to how ground speed is irrelevant for 'in air' stuff (free fall or canopy) is to imagine tossing a paper airplane inside the jump plane. Or try it if you are allowed. 
Will it matter if the plane is flying in the air or sitting on the ground?
Will the paper plane fly any differently if you throw it front to back compared to back to front? When tossing towards the front the ground speed is "airspeed of the paper plane plus ground speed of the airplane" figure 5kt for the paper plane and 90kt for the plane. 95kt ground speed. If you toss it front to back, the ground speed becomes 85kt... Backwards. But because the air is moving 90kt backwards (respective to the plane), the plane flies normally at an airspeed of 5kt forwards.

 

And regarding the last line. Terminal is terminal. That's the speed where drag equals the pull of gravity and you hold a steady speed. You don't reach a higher terminal from a higher altitude. 
For hop & pops, you don't reach terminal. It takes the 7 - 10 sec and 1000' you mentioned to reach typical belly terminal (~120mph). Pulling before that gives the 'subterminal' opening, which is usually softer and slower than terminal. Because the opening is slower, any slider issues or asymmetrical opening issues will be amplified. Which is likely what happened to you.

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I'm also OK with the use of "streamer" for a square that snivels forever but never has the slider come down.

Maybe some of you remember the big laminated malfunction photos / giant flashcards that some DZ's had for their FJCs? I don't know who buys them now, but they've been around, who knows, maybe 30 years. Their list of mal photos does include the streamer:

1. Broken Lines
2. Line Twists
3. Bag Lock
4. Slider-up with Spin
5. Slider-up Snivel
6. Pilot Chute-in-tow
7. Closed Endcells
8. Line-Over
9. Slider-up with Twists
10. Square Reserve Out with Main Out
11. Round Reserve Out with Main Out
12. Streamer
13. Horseshoe
14. Pilot Chute Under the Nose

(Source: SkyHi Video Productions website.They are still around!)

Hmm, but now I'm wondering, how is #5, the "Slider-up snivel" any different?

 

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1 hour ago, pchapman said:

 

Hmm, but now I'm wondering, how is #5, the "Slider-up snivel" any different?

 

From what I remember from my FJC, a streamer means there is no air or very little getting into the canopy, so your decent rate it hardly slowed vs a slider-up snivel wear air is getting in and it's dancing around, but not inflating.  If you watch the video below, you'll notice he doesn't lose a lot of ground from the camera man.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXvhkC3ZWs

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4 hours ago, pchapman said:

I'm also OK with the use of "streamer" for a square that snivels forever but never has the slider come down.

Maybe some of you remember the big laminated malfunction photos / giant flashcards that some DZ's had for their FJCs? I don't know who buys them now, but they've been around, who knows, maybe 30 years. Their list of mal photos does include the streamer:

1. Broken Lines
2. Line Twists
3. Bag Lock
4. Slider-up with Spin
5. Slider-up Snivel
6. Pilot Chute-in-tow
7. Closed Endcells
8. Line-Over
9. Slider-up with Twists
10. Square Reserve Out with Main Out
11. Round Reserve Out with Main Out
12. Streamer
13. Horseshoe
14. Pilot Chute Under the Nose

(Source: SkyHi Video Productions website.They are still around!)

Hmm, but now I'm wondering, how is #5, the "Slider-up snivel" any different?

 

Fair enough. I guess I was wrong about it. Not the first time, won't be the last.

do remember the "malfunction flashcards", both from my FJC and from a safety day a couple years ago*, and I don't remember a 'streamer', nor do I remember that many of them.

 

* - Fun Safety Day game - Put jumpers in a hanging harness, bounce and swing them around and show one of those flashcards above them. They have to ID the mal and take proper action.

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I'm glad you recovered ok.  Just keep in mind that a diving or spinning line twist can quickly lose altitude if you are not paying attention.  You solved it thankfully before decision altitude.  If you feel high gforces and spinning, consider just chopping it in the future.  There is no shame in cutting away at the first sign of a bad canopy whether its the extremely long opening time or the spinning line twists.

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