Abolish the Electoral College

[DJL 232]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

The extension of the logic being that inner city schools are the envy of the nation?

No, low voting representation in poor urban areas also results in shit schools.  Wealthy people in the city send their kids to private schools so they also don't give a shit.

[airdvr 197]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

The extension of the logic being that inner city schools are the envy of the nation?

Here in Ohio we have a system of school funding based on residential property values.  Obviously the nicer areas have nicer schools.  And the vicious circle goes on.  It was ruled unconstitutional some 22 years ago but no one has floated a system everyone agrees to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeRolph_v._State

So, in your example that's exactly what happens here but on a more local level.  School levies are voted on in each district.  Guess whose levies get passed more often.  A more equitable situation would be a vote on a statewide system where each district has some say but can't nullify the other simply because they have more money to spend.  Hmm...sounds familiar.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

 I do know he is famous for saying something to the effect of "a Democracy will only last until the population discovers they can vote themselves more money". 

Hi airdvr,

And my memory is not perfect; but, I do think your quote was by Ben Franklin, not de Tocqueville.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi folks,

Sorry for the dup.  Just how does one delete a post?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  And I'm still not convinced that there is one damn thing better about this 'new' site.

Edited March 26, 2019 by JerryBaumchen

[jakee 1,255]

2 hours ago, DJL said:

No, low voting representation in poor urban areas also results in shit schools. 

Why do you then want to maintain a system that guarantees the representation they do have is worth less?

 

Why do the country folk deserve better schools if they don't?

[jakee 1,255]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

So, in your example that's exactly what happens here but on a more local level.

What is my example? Pretty sure I didn't float an example.

 

Quote

 School levies are voted on in each district.  Guess whose levies get passed more often.  A more equitable situation would be a vote on a statewide system where each district has some say but can't nullify the other simply because they have more money to spend.  Hmm...sounds familiar.

I honestly can't follow what you just said. If at the moment each district votes for their own funding within that district, how is your example at all analogous to a national election?

[airdvr 197]

I'm saying the problem is the "every man for himself" mentality that goes with abolishing the EC.

[jakee 1,255]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

I'm saying the problem is the "every man for himself" mentality that goes with abolishing the EC.

But you’re using ‘every man for himself’ as the justification for the EC.

[BIGUN 1,053]

16 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

And my memory is not perfect; but, I do think your quote was by Ben Franklin, not de Tocqueville.

You're both mistaken.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”

― Alexander Fraser Tytler

[SkyDekker 1,123]

19 hours ago, airdvr said:

I guess my knowledge of history is sparse.  Never studied the man.  I do know he is famous for saying something to the effect of "a Democracy will only last until the population discovers they can vote themselves more money".  Hello AOC.

Other than the wrong quote contribution. Let's also point out how interesting it is you present AOC as an example. Specially since rich Republicans just voted themselves significant tax breaks not too long ago. They very literally voted themselves more money.

The brilliant part from them is, that they have convinced the poor and stupid this is also in their interest.

[DJL 232]

16 hours ago, jakee said:

Why do you then want to maintain a system that guarantees the representation they do have is worth less?

Why do the country folk deserve better schools if they don't?

Let's clarify what we're talking about because I didn't say cities, I said "higher population centers" which are typically suburbs.  In my state the legislature is run by Northern Virginia and Henrico over places like Mathews and City of Richmond. Here's an example:

https://wtvr.com/2018/12/05/crippled-by-funding-decreases-frustrated-richmond-public-school-and-city-leaders-organize-march-for-more/

[jakee 1,255]

2 hours ago, DJL said:

Let's clarify what we're talking about because I didn't say cities, I said "higher population centers" which are typically suburbs.  In my state the legislature is run by Northern Virginia and Henrico over places like Mathews and City of Richmond. Here's an example:

https://wtvr.com/2018/12/05/crippled-by-funding-decreases-frustrated-richmond-public-school-and-city-leaders-organize-march-for-more/

Geography restriction, can't read it.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Other than the wrong quote contribution. Let's also point out how interesting it is you present AOC as an example. Specially since rich Republicans just voted themselves significant tax breaks not too long ago. They very literally voted themselves more money.

The brilliant part from them is, that they have convinced the poor and stupid this is also in their interest.

And, of course, when asked about the huge deficits that will result from those tax cuts, Trump said he didn't care. He wouldn't be president when the problem would become serious, so he didn't care.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

I am still trying to figure out how rich people voting themselves more money is commendable, but people trying to work towards a higher minimum level of quality of life for everybody are evil.

Being able to afford a 4th or 5th mansion, or a 4th or 5th yacht is more important than other people having food and healthcare. 

[DJL 232]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

Geography restriction, can't read it.

RICHMOND, Va - Students, teachers, and advocates plan to march from MLK Middle School in Richmond to the steps of the state capitol on Saturday.  The "March for More" was organized by local city and school leader to call for more funding from the state for public education.

Per pupil spending by the state on K-12 students is nine percent less than 2009 when adjusted for inflation, according to an October report from the independent fiscal analysis non-profit The Commonwealth Institute.  Richmond school leaders said state funding is one reason they may have to make "hard decisions" about where to cut in a school budget that parents have long said does not allow for an equitable education for students.

Tracy Wellman is a school social worker for RPS charged with helping students with their emotional and social well-being.  Her favorite, and arguably more important, part of her job is building relationships with students and parents.

Wellman is assigned to both Lucille Brown Middle School and Carver Elementary, meaning she is responsible for more than 1,000 students. Her day is mostly filled with parent meetings and making attendance inquiry calls.

"My time is limited," Wellman said.  "It’s really just touching base on the surface.  I’m really not able to delve into what’s going on, and help them develop new skills, coping skills, and help them work through whatever they have going on. . . When I’m stuck in a meeting all day, I’m not getting to do that, I’m not getting to help them."

"It's, to put it bluntly, crazy that a social worker would have 1,000 kids," said RPS Superintendent Jason Kamras.

Kamras and Richmond Mayor Levar Stoney sat for a rare joint interview to discuss why they are lobbying the state for more education funding.  Both leaders helped organize the "March for More" and cite the statewide nine percent post-Recession funding decrease as a target for improvement.

"We are being left behind by the Commonwealth, so we want the Commonwealth, the state, to do its part," Stoney said.  " For us to not be even at the level were at before the recession is unjust and immoral."

Following the recession, Virginia lawmakers made major cuts to the state budget and public education funding took a major hit, accord to Chris Duncombe, Senior Policy Analyst at The Commonwealth Institute.   Local governments have been asked to foot more of the bill for public education since 2009, according to Duncombe, who adds rural and urban districts have been hit especially hard.

"When those reductions first came, they ended up taking over $1 billion out of public education," Duncombe said.  "It’s still hundreds of millions down.  Not nearly to the extent it once was, but still pretty severe."

Beyond aging school buildings, Kamras said the state funding limitations contribute to what RPS can pay teachers, technology gaps in classrooms, and general staffing.

"I had a nurse that resigned because we paid her so little she was on food stamps. I have bus driver vacancies because we can’t compete with Amazon and Walmart and all the other commercial bus companies ," Kamras said.

Stoney campaigned as the "education Mayor" in 2016.  His administration has faced public criticism from some parents and advocates worried about the pace of progress on that front and the focus on a redevelopment plan around the Richmond Coliseum.

Stoney pointed to an increased meals tax and the Navy Hill project as examples of new revenues the city is pursuing to help fund schools, but said RPS cannot pursue the five-year strategic plan laid out by district leaders without more state funding.

"I think right now, we're at a critical junction in Richmond's future.  We have to do something now, or we're going to be leaving another generation of children behind," Stoney said.

"I’ll be very honest, without additional funds coming in, we cannot achieve that plan.  If more funds don’t come in, we’ll have to make some tough choices.  What are we going to not do. What positions are we going to not have next year," Kamras said.  "One of the points I think that’s important to make, this is not just a Richmond issue.  It’s not just urban; it’s rural, it’s suburban, it’s not just Democrat or Republican.  It’s a statewide issue."

Kamras said under-funded Standards of Quality (SOQ's), which are set by the state, impacts decision making in school districts across Virginia.

"We still have a ways to go; we still have a lot of opportunities for progress," said state Senator Glen Sturtevant (R-Richmond), who served on the Richmond School Board before being elected to the General Assembly.

Sturtevant said he is optimistic Virginia lawmakers can find ways to increase direct funding for public education during the 2019 General Assembly session.  The newly-formed school modernization subcommittee has studied ways to provide localities with financing help to rebuild aging school buildings, he adds.

"In many of our localities, it’s hard to find a school that was not built sometime between World War II and the Vietnam War," Sturtevant said.  "We have got to make sure we are prioritizing state funding on education.  That is one of if not the most important thing state government does."

Chris Duncombe said state lawmakers are uniquely positioned to invest in public education in 2019.  He said the U.S. Supreme Court's Wayfair decision could bring in tax dollars from out-of-state online sellers and conforming Virginia's tax code to federal tax legislation could bring in up to $600 million of new revenue to Virginia.

"I think this march is well positioned time-wise to say if we’re not going to do this right now, if we’re not going to make this commitment when things are looking good, what does that mean in the future? And are we ever going to take that step?" Duncombe said.

Republicans and Democrats in the General Assembly have conflicting views on whether conforming Virginia's tax code would actually benefit all Virginia taxpayers.  The issue is expected to be a major point of contention in 2019.

Tracy Wellman, the RPS school social work, takes this view of any school funding debate.

"What we see and what we deal with is very different from what someone sitting somewhere else thinks is happening," she said of the teachers and staff she works with.

Wellman said what she sees is students who need her and not enough time to help.

"The needs of our are so deep, it’s not just about them coming to school, sitting in the classroom, and getting an education," she said.

On Saturday, the "March for More" begins at 10 a.m. at MLK middle school on Mosby street.

[jakee 1,255]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

RICHMOND, Va - Students, teachers, and advocates plan to march from MLK Middle School in Richmond to the steps of the state capitol on Saturday.  The "March for More" was organized by local city and school leader to call for more funding from the state for public education.

What does any of that have to do with what we're talking about?

[DJL 232]

55 minutes ago, jakee said:

What does any of that have to do with what we're talking about?

You're asking about my example of lower population centers being negatively affected by a larger voting mass.  You then said you couldn't link to the article so I pasted it for you.  

[jakee 1,255]

8 hours ago, DJL said:

You're asking about my example of lower population centers being negatively affected by a larger voting mass.  You then said you couldn't link to the article so I pasted it for you.  

How is that an example of it?

[DJL 232]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

How is that an example of it?

I assume you didn't read the whole article.  It's about the issue of schools in Richmond attempting to regain their funding that was voted away by the legislature after the last recession and makes references to both city and rural communities losing out.  You were trying to make a deduction from my earlier post that "if rural bad then city good (but lol, it's not)" but that's not what I said so I'm giving you an example in my state to clarify that I said it's a "population center" issue. While cites can be dense they are small and still don't have the voting numbers of the much more highly populated suburban areas.  Richmond has a population of 227k, Henrico, which surrounds Richmond is 327k.  Are we clear on my point?  Population should not be an ultimate metric of voting power.

[jakee 1,255]

20 minutes ago, DJL said:

I assume you didn't read the whole article.  

Yeah, I did. Which is why I know that when you say it’s a rural and urban issue and the suburbs are ‘Im alright Jack’ you’re contradicting your source, who said;

 

“"One of the points I think that’s important to make, this is not just a Richmond issue.  It’s not just urban; it’s rural, it’s suburban, it’s not just Democrat or Republican.  It’s a statewide issue."

 

So, y’know, there’s that. Also, there’s no demonstration of causality between voting system and school funding, or explanation of how cuts following the recession would have been alleviated if cotes for state offices were weighted away from the suburbs. You’re simply asserting that they would be, the same way you’re asserting that the EC makes things better. You haven’t provided any support for that assertion.

 

Finally, if people shouldn’t be a metric of voting power, what should be and how do you figure it out?

[DJL 232]

28 minutes ago, jakee said:

Yeah, I did. Which is why I know that when you say it’s a rural and urban issue and the suburbs are ‘Im alright Jack’ you’re contradicting your source, who said;

“"One of the points I think that’s immortant to make, this is not just a Richmond issue.  It’s not just urban; it’s rural, it’s suburban, it’s not just Democrat or Republican.  It’s a statewide issue."

So, y’know, there’s that. Also, there’s no demonstration of causality between voting system and school funding, or explanation of how cuts following the recession would have been alleviated if cotes for state offices were weighted away from the suburbs. You’re simply asserting that they would be, the same way you’re asserting that the EC makes things better. You haven’t provided any support for that assertion.

Finally, if people shouldn’t be a metric of voting power, what should be and how do you figure it out?

Gotcha, true.  I guess I'm reading more into the article having been following the issue of Virginia school funding, 30 years of state elections and what Mayor Levar Stoney has been working on.  I admit it's not a perfect example of the issue either because rural residents used to vote against outside funding fearing that it allows state and federal control over their children.  But now their schools are literally crumbling and they're doing the math that no increase in property tax will cover the needed renovations. Best I can say is that I'll have to get back to you with a better source.  I do construction cost estimating for schools and other public facilities so you could say I'm pretty attuned to what's going on behind the curtains.  Whenever I tell a school official the money that went into another project that was just a county over you can actually see them die a bit inside.