By their fruits

[normiss 622]

Death is the reward of religion.
You'd think they would make gods out of all murders for getting them into the glorious heaven that awaits you after death.
That sounds like complete utter bullshit to me.
Part of why I have avoided religion as a whole.
I'm not stooping to that level.

[gowlerk 1,915]

theplummeter

Can Bundy sit next to Dauhmer and Hitler in heaven while people who grow up elsewhere living near perfect lives burn in hell for eternity?

Is that His perfect mercy or His perfect Justice?

This is why arguing is pointless. Either you believe or you don't. It will never make sense, it never can. Some people just need to believe. There is no use trying to take that away from them.

Of course, exactly what they believe is never the same for any two people. Just as many believers will place Bundy in hell as in heaven. Meh,....whatever.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

******How is it a process if there isn't even anything to tell you what the process is?

It is what it is. One will most likely find new insight and modify their beliefs as they read beyond john 3:16 (or wherever else they started) and apply biblical principles to their life.
Although you just said those biblical principles could be anything, and may well have nothing whatsoever to do with what god may or may not want people to do?

Ya it could. For example, you picked out one verse about not killing, but then apparently overlooked verses dealing with self defense and war.

You also seem to have a strictly moralistic view of Christianity, and that any failure to live up to those morals puts one's soul in jeopardy, but that ignores the parts of scripture that say we were already condemned because of that failure, and that eternal life only comes through Christ.

If we could somehow redeem ourselves by living in strict adherence to the law from this point on, then there would be no need for Christ in the first place.

jakee

How do you know there's any such thing as a saved soul?

You brought up that Christians believe there is a soul. The idea of the soul/spirit is a biblical concept, just as the idea of it being saved is a biblical concept. If you're asking for scientific proof, then I can't help you there since it's all taken on faith. As you already pointed out, it's a belief.

jakee

Quote

That is my interpretation. You obviously had your own. Others have their own. Some Christians believe that saved souls can get lost again, I don't.

so god doesn't care what people do

Of course He does, according to scripture He wants us to accept Christ's death and resurrection as the propitiation for our sin.

I think the real question here is whether certain types of killings are considered sins or not.

As I've mentioned above, there are parts of scripture that deal with the idea of self defense.

Also, the original Hebrew word used in the 6th commandment is ratsach which is most commonly translated as murder.

If it was meant to include killings during war or battle, then it would've most likely used the word harag.

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

You brought up that Christians believe there is a soul. The idea of the soul/spirit is a biblical concept, just as the idea of it being saved is a biblical concept. If you're asking for scientific proof, then I can't help you there since it's all taken on faith. As you already pointed out, it's a belief.

No, I'm not asking for scientific proof. I'm asking how you're sure the soul is a biblical conceot when you think the bible could say everything or nothing, and no-one knows what any part of it means.

Quote

Of course He does, according to scripture He wants us to accept Christ's death and resurrection as the propitiation for our sin.

Exactly, the only thing he wants from you is belief, and he doesn't care what else you do.

Again, it's refreshing to hear someone admit that their religion is fundamentally amoral. You don't often get that kind of consistency.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

Bare in mind, mores, folkways, customs, and traditions are all elements of cultural relativity.

Salvation is the exercise of personal will to seek after God, through Jesus the Christ.

The soul is a person's mind, emotions, and will. We are comprised of a body, a soul, and a spirit.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,257]

RonD1120

Bare in mind, mores, folkways, customs, and traditions are all elements of cultural relativity.

Yeah, exactly.

Quote

Salvation is the exercise of personal will to seek after God, through Jesus the Christ.

Right, and so there is no morality involved in your belief system.

It makes sense.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

jakee

***Bare in mind, mores, folkways, customs, and traditions are all elements of cultural relativity.

Yeah, exactly.

Quote

Salvation is the exercise of personal will to seek after God, through Jesus the Christ.

Right, and so there is no morality involved in your belief system.

It makes sense.

Actually, your morality is not involved in our Christian belief system.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,257]

RonD1120

******Bare in mind, mores, folkways, customs, and traditions are all elements of cultural relativity.

Yeah, exactly.

Quote

Salvation is the exercise of personal will to seek after God, through Jesus the Christ.

Right, and so there is no morality involved in your belief system.

It makes sense.

Actually, your morality is not involved in our Christian belief system.
And neither is yours, is what you're saying, right?

At least, God doesn't require you to be moral or care if you are moral.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[theplummeter 14]

gowlerk

***Can Bundy sit next to Dauhmer and Hitler in heaven while people who grow up elsewhere living near perfect lives burn in hell for eternity?

Is that His perfect mercy or His perfect Justice?

This is why arguing is pointless. Either you believe or you don't. It will never make sense, it never can. Some people just need to believe. There is no use trying to take that away from them.

Of course, exactly what they believe is never the same for any two people. Just as many believers will place Bundy in hell as in heaven. Meh,....whatever.

I’m not trying to take anything away from anyone, just pointing out the contradictions with the beliefs of many religions. Any type of logic and morality ends up getting replaced with the need to fail a test of credulity. I think there is a far more moral and constructive way to think and act.

[gowlerk 1,915]

Quote

I’m not trying to take anything away from anyone, just pointing out the contradictions with the beliefs of many religions. Any type of logic and morality ends up getting replaced with the need to fail a test of credulity. I think there is a far more moral and constructive way to think and act.

I understand you. In the end religion and morality have nothing to do with each other. And there is not a lot of logic in morality either. Morals change and shift as needed. Morality is impossible to get a grip on. It's one of those "I can't explain it, but I know it when I see it things".

Actually we hear very little about what is moral. We hear a lot about what is immoral. And it's almost always about something someone else is doing.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

Quote

You brought up that Christians believe there is a soul. The idea of the soul/spirit is a biblical concept, just as the idea of it being saved is a biblical concept. If you're asking for scientific proof, then I can't help you there since it's all taken on faith. As you already pointed out, it's a belief.

No, I'm not asking for scientific proof. I'm asking how you're sure the soul is a biblical conceot

It's right there in Matthew 19:25-26, Romans 10:9-10, Hebrews 7:25. It's also alluded to in John 3:16. But perhaps I'm taking it all out of context. Perhaps that's just what I want to believe. Maybe I'm wrong. You're welcome to present a biblical argument that counters the sole basis of Christianity, but that one is pretty solid. Other concepts no so much.

For example, contemporary views of hell were probably influenced more by Dante's inferno than anything found in scripture.

jakee

Quote

Of course He does, according to scripture He wants us to accept Christ's death and resurrection as the propitiation for our sin.

Exactly, the only thing he wants from you is belief, and he doesn't care what else you do.

Where does it say that? If we were no longer subject to municipal penalties, it still wouldn't be wise to floor it through every intersection. I'm under the impression that there are still consequences for our actions, not only in this life, but the next as well. However, those consequences will be dealt with in the presence of God, not absent from Him.

Furthermore:
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

"What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

More on that can be found in Romans.

Also, keeping inline with the OP title:
"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like."

If a believer finds that their life is defined more so by the latter, then they should be concerned and desire to address those issues.

"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith."

[jakee 1,257]

motionscribe

***

Quote

Of course He does, according to scripture He wants us to accept Christ's death and resurrection as the propitiation for our sin.

Exactly, the only thing he wants from you is belief, and he doesn't care what else you do.

Where does it say that?
You just said that, didn't you? First you said that no-one knows what the bible, and therefore god, tells you to do. Then you said the only thing that makes any difference to salvation is belief.

So if god doesn't tell you what's moral, and god's only criteria for saving people has nothing to do with trying to be moral, then how can you say that god cares about morality?

Damn dude, you were so close to being the only intellectually honest religious person I'd ever talked to, then ya blew it.

Quote

If we were no longer subject to municipal penalties, it still wouldn't be wise to floor it through every intersection.

If you think you're going to be saved in the afterlife regardless, why wouldn't you floor it through every intersection if that's what you felt like doing?

Quote

I'm under the impression that there are still consequences for our actions, not only in this life, but the next as well.

Assuming you've accepted redemption through jesus, what consequences?

Quote

If a believer finds that their life is defined more so by the latter, then they should be concerned and desire to address those issues.

But it doesn't actually matter whether or not they do that.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

******

Quote

Of course He does, according to scripture He wants us to accept Christ's death and resurrection as the propitiation for our sin.

Exactly, the only thing he wants from you is belief, and he doesn't care what else you do.

Where does it say that?
You just said that, didn't you?

Where did I say that God doesn't care what else you do?

It really sucks that I have to do this, but when you were a child, I'd suspect that you were bound and subject to your parents rules and probably punished if you disobeyed, right?

When you became a man, you were no longer subject to that punishment, right?

Does that mean that they didn't care if you disregarded everything they instilled in you as a child?

If you failed to heed their direction, would they've not forgiven you and welcome you back into their home?

Does that mean you should take advantage of their grace?

jakee

First you said that no-one knows what the bible, and therefore god, tells you to do.

No I didn't. I said that we can use the bible to justify practically anything we want to, but I never said that that makes it right. As I've already illustrated, it's most likely due to taking scripture out of context or relying on extra biblical text/ideas to form your religious ideology.

For example, you originally believed that killing someone regardless of the reason for doing so would put one's eternal soul in jeopardy, but since then you've been given a lesson in Hebrew and informed about biblical texts that deal with the idea of self defense, not to mention the deadly dangers of moralism and relying on one's self to make things right with God. . .

This is all really beside the point. I was initially trying to explain why I wasn't comfortable with judging one's decision to join the military and possibly killing someone. It's not necessary for one to be completely familiar with scripture in order to be saved. You don't even need to know how to read in order to accept Christ. I don't know what their religious beliefs entail. I don't know their understanding of scripture, or how much they've actually read or how much of their beliefs were influenced by extra biblical sources. If I had to judge, I'd want to have all the details so that I can judge each individual case on it's own merit.

jakee

Then you said the only thing that makes any difference to salvation is belief.

Yes, that is correct.

But now you're ignoring the part where I posted the measure by which one uses to see if that belief is real or not. . .

jakee

Damn dude, you were so close to being the only intellectually honest religious person I'd ever talked to, then ya blew it.

As much as I like you, I'll take that as a good thing.

Your selective quoting, and obvious but failed attempt at tying me in knots demonstrates that you might not be as honest, nor clever as you let on, and has only distracted you from the fact that I've already addressed your original question, so there is no need for you to "struggle" with it any longer.

jakee

Quote

If we were no longer subject to municipal penalties, it still wouldn't be wise to floor it through every intersection.

If you think you're going to be saved in the afterlife regardless, why wouldn't you floor it through every intersection if that's what you felt like doing?

Is that more inline with the "fruit of the spirit" that I've already mentioned or is it more inline with "the acts of the flesh," specifically, the lack of self control? See what I mean? That's that selective quoting thing that I was talking about.

jakee

Quote

I'm under the impression that there are still consequences for our actions, not only in this life, but the next as well.

Assuming you've accepted redemption through jesus, what consequences?

Aside from forfeiting the joys this life may have to offer regardless of whether or not one believes, I believe it's written that God will reward those in the next life according to their deeds in this life. I'm assuming those rewards or lack thereof will last for an eternity.

I don't know about you, but I'll consider myself damned if I spend the rest of my life giving Ron pedicures every week in heaven for the next billion+ years. . .

jakee

Quote

If a believer finds that their life is defined more so by the latter, then they should be concerned and desire to address those issues.

But it doesn't actually matter whether or not they do that.

I think that's one of the most important parts. If we don't care to examine ourselves and modify our behavior accordingly, then we can't definitively say that we're saved to begin with.

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

Where did I say that God doesn't care what else you do?

In every post you've made so far? Again, you said the bible doesn't tell people what's objectively right or wrong, and moral behaviour has no impact on salvation. So in what way does god care what you do?

Quote

It really sucks that I have to do this, but when you were a child, I'd suspect that you were bound and subject to your parents rules and probably punished if you disobeyed, right?

When you became a man, you were no longer subject to that punishment, right?

Does that mean that they didn't care if you disregarded everything they instilled in you as a child?

If you failed to heed their direction, would they've not forgiven you and welcome you back into their home?

Does that mean you should take advantage of their grace?

It really sucks that you have to use another terrible analogy? Yeah, I agree with you there.

When your parents can't tell you what to do anymore, it's because they can't tell you what to do anymore. God could tell people what to do, but he doesn't. He could make it so there are major consequences for evil behaviour, but he doesn't. So he doesn't care.

Lots of parents don't welcome their kids back into their homes when they've done extremely bad things. The vast majority of families would have a line in the sand.

Quote

No I didn't. I said that we can use the bible to justify practically anything we want to, but I never said that that makes it right.

You haven't said it's wrong either - and you have said that nothing bad will happen to you, no matter what you do that you think the bible justifies.

Quote

But now you're ignoring the part where I posted the measure by which one uses to see if that belief is real or not. . .

You haven't mentioned any measure of the validity of belief. You have specifically denied that good behaviour has anything to do with redemption though.

Quote

Your selective quoting, and obvious but failed attempt at tying me in knots demonstrates that you might not be as honest, nor clever as you let on, and has only distracted you from the fact that I've already addressed your original question, so there is no need for you to "struggle" with it any longer.

What attempt to tie you in knots?

I accepted your initial explanations, and said so. It's only now that you're trying to backtrack that I have more questions.

Quote

Quote

If we were no longer subject to municipal penalties, it still wouldn't be wise to floor it through every intersection.

Is that more inline with the "fruit of the spirit" that I've already mentioned or is it more inline with "the acts of the flesh," specifically, the lack of self control? See what I mean?

I have no idea what you mean. What happens to you if you believe in Jesus as your saviour but still lack self control? Absolutely nothing, right? I mean, even your analogy says so, there are no penalties. If there were no rules against flooring it through an intersection then why wouldn't they do it?

Quote

Aside from forfeiting the joys this life may have to offer regardless of whether or not one believes, I believe it's written that God will reward those in the next life according to their deeds in this life. I'm assuming those rewards or lack thereof will last for an eternity.

So in other words you do have a strictly moralistic view of the afterlife?

So, what's the justification for having belief as the boundary for entrance? Because usually the answer is that to God we're all sinners, that the least bad thought is the same as murder and therefore it's impossible to judge the moral balance of our lives. But from what you say above it is possible to judge the moral balance of your life. So why accept the Christian serial killer and condemn the Islamic social worker?

Quote

I think that's one of the most important parts. If we don't care to examine ourselves and modify our behavior accordingly, then we can't definitively say that we're saved to begin with.

But again, you specifically said that behaviour has nothing to do with being saved. Do you think people can't tell whether they believe in Jesus or not?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

you said moral behaviour has no impact on salvation. So in what way does god care what you do?

If He's forgiving an offense, then naturally He cares, otherwise there would be no offense to forgive in the first place.

jakee

Quote

But now you're ignoring the part where I posted the measure by which one uses to see if that belief is real or not. . .

You haven't mentioned any measure of the validity of belief. You have specifically denied that good behaviour has anything to do with redemption though.

Repentance and living a life that produces "good fruit" is evidence that your faith is sincere and have actually been redeemed.

If there is no evidence of saving faith, and all you're doing is insulting God's "Spirit of Grace" by using it as an excuse to sin, then it suggests that you might not really be saved to begin with.

jakee

Quote

I think that's one of the most important parts. If we don't care to examine ourselves and modify our behavior accordingly, then we can't definitively say that we're saved to begin with.

But again, you specifically said that behaviour has nothing to do with being saved.

If we are saved by grace, then obviously it wasn't something that could be earned on our own. Once saved, you probably heard Ron talk about the process of sanctification which entails repentance and producing "the fruit of the spirit"

jakee

Do you think people can't tell whether they believe in Jesus or not?

I think Christians can go through periods of sin in their lives. If that sin persists long enough, they may grow uneasy and start questioning their own salvation and modify their behavior accordingly.

[jakee 1,257]

motionscribe

***you said moral behaviour has no impact on salvation. So in what way does god care what you do?

If He's forgiving an offense, then naturally He cares, otherwise there would be no offense to forgive in the first place.
But first, simply existing is an offense that needs forgiving, right? Fallen world and all that. Second, any offense from spending your entire life doing charitable work with the clergy, to being a mass murderer, is forgiven just as easily by the same method. So in what way does he care what you do after you've been instantly condemned by being born?

jakee

Repentance and living a life that produces "good fruit" is evidence that your faith is sincere and have actually been redeemed.

Evidence to who? God can see people thoughts, right? So he'll know if someone genuinely believes regardless of what they do. The person in question will know if they genuinely believe. The only person who would have to look at deeds to judge if someone really believes is you. And I was under the impression that a) you weren't supposed to do that and b) your opinion doesn't matter.

Quote

If we are saved by grace, then obviously it wasn't something that could be earned on our own. Once saved, you probably heard Ron talk about the process of sanctification which entails repentance and producing "the fruit of the spirit"

Eh?

Quote

I think Christians can go through periods of sin in their lives. If that sin persists long enough, they may grow uneasy and start questioning their own salvation and modify their behavior accordingly.

Operative word 'may'. But they may not. And it doesn't matter, they're saved anyway. Right?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,402]

Quote

Repentance and living a life that produces "good fruit" is evidence that your faith is sincere and have actually been redeemed.

Agreed. But that seems to fly in the face of the more conventional Christian thinking, which is that if you bear nothing but bad fruit - but repent as you are dying, and you believe yourself to be sincere - then all that bad fruit is wiped away from a theological perspective. Even with no good fruit to replace it.

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

Quote

Repentance and living a life that produces "good fruit" is evidence that your faith is sincere and have actually been redeemed.

Evidence to who? The person in question will know if they genuinely believe.
Then I think you might be underestimating the effects of persistent sin in a believers life. It tends to create a lot of confusion, steal their joy and cause them to question their faith, preventing them from experiencing the finer things of Christian life.

• Quote

[motionscribe 0]

billvon

Quote

Repentance and living a life that produces "good fruit" is evidence that your faith is sincere and have actually been redeemed.

Agreed. But that seems to fly in the face of the more conventional Christian thinking, which is that if you bear nothing but bad fruit - but repent as you are dying, and you believe yourself to be sincere - then all that bad fruit is wiped away from a theological perspective. Even with no good fruit to replace it.

I don't really see a conflict there, just an unfortunate instance of spending a lifetime embattled with the "acts of the flesh" rather than experiencing the "fruit of the Spirit."

[jakee 1,257]

motionscribe

Then I think you might be underestimating the effects of persistent sin in a believers life. It tends to create a lot of confusion, steal their joy and cause them to question their faith, preventing them from experiencing the finer things of Christian life.

Which is 100% irrelevant to what we're talking about.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

motionscribe

I don't really see a conflict there, just an unfortunate instance of spending a lifetime embattled with the "acts of the flesh" rather than experiencing the "fruit of the Spirit."

It's a conflict with the idea that God cares what you do.

Again, the evil bastard who gets scared when he's dying and finds out that he really does believe in Jesus gets forgiven just as easily as the nicest person you've ever met.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,402]

Quote

I don't really see a conflict there, just an unfortunate instance of spending a lifetime embattled with the "acts of the flesh" rather than experiencing the "fruit of the Spirit."

Right. But again, that conflicts with what you just said.

Do you think that a sincere deathbed conversion wipes away all your sin (in the eyes of God?)

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

Quote

I don't really see a conflict there, just an unfortunate instance of spending a lifetime embattled with the "acts of the flesh" rather than experiencing the "fruit of the Spirit."

Right. But again, that conflicts with what you just said.

Do you think that a sincere deathbed conversion wipes away all your sin (in the eyes of God?)

Absolutely, God knows your heart.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[normiss 622]

This must be how the likes of Roy Moore, Brett Kavanaugh, Brian Kemp, Cindy Hyde-Smith, and Donald Trump, and others get support.
They aren't really bad people. All those bad things they do will be forgiven.

[DJL 232]

RonD1120

***

Quote

I don't really see a conflict there, just an unfortunate instance of spending a lifetime embattled with the "acts of the flesh" rather than experiencing the "fruit of the Spirit."

Right. But again, that conflicts with what you just said.

Do you think that a sincere deathbed conversion wipes away all your sin (in the eyes of God?)

Absolutely, God knows your heart.

This doesn't sound like a good case for people who believe in God to have any accountability for their actions.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher