Waco

[airdvr 200]

Watched parts 1 and 2 and the finale. To me this is a gross re-write of history and possibly dangerous.

I realize I didn't see a lot of it but what I saw painted Koresh as some sort of prophet and ATF/FBI as bumbling idiots. The truth is somewhere in the middle, with the lack of truthfulness on the real essence of David Koresh and the Davidians.

I also see it as dangerous from the viewpoint of the last thing we need right now is to get the alt-right religious fanatics stirred up again.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[grimmie 177]

https://politicaldig.com/evangelicals-worship-ar-15-rifles-other-guns-at-pennsylvania-church/

Too late, they are already stirred up.

[Rick 67]

grimmie

https://politicaldig.com/evangelicals-worship-ar-15-rifles-other-guns-at-pennsylvania-church/

Too late, they are already stirred up.

at the " World Peace and Unification Sanctuary" right I don't think they are interested in peace or unification

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[nolhtairt 0]

Koresh was a manipulator of people who were sucked in by his charisma, and many of them died along with him. I'm not too sure about the FBI agents being idiots, but they were under orders by one of the worst attorney generals ever, Janet Reno, who incidentally, also had the Ruby Ridge and Cuban boy repatriation incidents happen on her watch, IIRC.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

nolhtairt

Koresh was a manipulator of people who were sucked in by his charisma, and many of them died along with him. I'm not too sure about the FBI agents being idiots, but they were under orders by one of the worst attorney generals ever, Janet Reno, who incidentally, also had the Ruby Ridge and Cuban boy repatriation incidents happen on her watch, IIRC.

Well it was the BATF that really screwed up.

And they had a long list of serious screwups throughout the late 80s and 90s.

Everything about the initial raid on the compound was a mess. From inviting the media, but forgetting any EMS. From getting lost on the way, and asking a mailman for directions (who just happened to have friends at the compound) to ignoring the advice of the local sheriff not to go in with force (which played directly into Koresh's 'prophecies').

Throw in the lies by the government in the early stages (Koresh was making meth was one of the more outrageous ones), then the fire that ended it. The idea that the fire was deliberately set is more than a little bit ludicrous. However, the FBI knew the interior layout and knew that they were using kerosene lamps for light, and knew where the stairs were, and then used tanks to knock down walls, destroying the stairs and knocking over the lamps that started the fire.
Either they didn't think any of this all the way through (likely), or they didn't care if the occupants got hurt (less likely), or did it deliberately, hoping to start a fire (still less likely).

In any case, this would likely fall under the heading of "negligent homicide" had it been a civilian setting.
But the government didn't see any consequences. In fact, the hearing that was supposed to investigate this started off by "convicting" Koresh of child molestation (likely true) and pretty much ignored the huge errors committed by the federal agents.
Apparently, they cared so much about the kids that they burned them to death.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[wmw999 2,148]

Ruby Ridge was before her time. The Waco standoff had started before she was AG, and ended after. She was the AG for the Gonzalez case. The child’s custody case was lost by the uncle and aunt, and local LEO’s refused to enforce the order. It was a clusterfuck.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ryoder 1,400]

What I've read repeatedly about Waco, is that if Koresh was who they wanted, they could have grabbed him when he made one of his trips into town, instead of confronting the whole compound in an armed standoff. (I don't know if he really did go into town frequently.)

In other words, they could have used the same strategy they used to arrest the leaders in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Occupation.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[theplummeter 14]

grimmie

https://politicaldig.com/evangelicals-worship-ar-15-rifles-other-guns-at-pennsylvania-church/

Too late, they are already stirred up.

White American Country Jesus is way better than that Arab Hebrew socialist in the book.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

ryoder

What I've read repeatedly about Waco, is that if Koresh was who they wanted, they could have grabbed him when he made one of his trips into town, instead of confronting the whole compound in an armed standoff. (I don't know if he really did go into town frequently.)

In other words, they could have used the same strategy they used to arrest the leaders in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Occupation.

Well, it could be argued that the Waco standoff was the reason the Malheur one was handled the way it was.

And that was one of the things the sheriff made clear. Apparently he was at least somewhat friends with Koresh.
From what I understand, Koresh knew that the BATF was interested in him. He had an FFL and was accumulating "assault weapons" and high cap mags.
Partially because he was prophesying that the "Apocalypse" was approaching, partly because it was becoming more and more apparent that some sort of ban was going to be put in place. Buying up a bunch in advance of that was simply 'investing'.
If he and his crew had survived, he could have sold them (legally) for a tidy profit. Prices on 'pre-ban' stuff went through the roof for a few years.
They did find a couple hand grenades (destructive devices) and a couple full auto (machine guns) in the rubble, none of which were legally registered.
But most of what they found was semi-auto (legal), many of which were simply 'stripped receivers', which are the 'legal gun' for that sort of thing (bolt, barrel, stock, 'internals' are all considered 'parts').

It was pretty clear from the beginning that this was far more of a "make the BATF look good by arresting him" than an actual "investigation" type of thing. The BATF had a big issue with that sort if thing back then.
It seemed like they kept trying to show that they weren't like that, yet kept on pulling stunts 'just like that'. The NRA called the "jack-booted thugs" and had some really good reasons for it.

Once Koresh fought back during the raid, it got way, way out of hand for the BATF and the FBI had to take over.

And they botched it up pretty badly too. Apparently the negotiator and the head of the HRT weren't communicating very well and stuff the negotiator offered was rejected out of hand by the team leader. Which led to Koresh not believing anything the negotiator would say.

Because Koresh and the Branch Davidians were "preppers" they had food and fuel and other stuff to last for a reasonably long time without outside input. And the FBI got impatient when it became apparent that 'waiting them out' was going to take quite a while.
So they hit the building with armored vehicles, pushing powdered CS (tear gas, more or less) into the holes they knocked in the walls.
In the process, they destroyed the escape routes for the occupants and set the compound on fire.
Given the fact that they had the place surrounded and under surveillance for a long time, it's highly likely they had both audio (microphones) and video (cameras) installed in the walls. It's likely that they had a very good idea of the layout of the interior, and the location of the occupants.
So the idea that the stairway being taken down and the kerosene lamp being knocked over 'by accident' becomes a little bit hard to believe.
I still think it was more 'negligence' than 'intent', but that doesn't change the fact that they killed over 50 people that day.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[airdvr 200]

wolfriverjoe

***What I've read repeatedly about Waco, is that if Koresh was who they wanted, they could have grabbed him when he made one of his trips into town, instead of confronting the whole compound in an armed standoff. (I don't know if he really did go into town frequently.)

In other words, they could have used the same strategy they used to arrest the leaders in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Occupation.

Well, it could be argued that the Waco standoff was the reason the Malheur one was handled the way it was.

And that was one of the things the sheriff made clear. Apparently he was at least somewhat friends with Koresh.
From what I understand, Koresh knew that the BATF was interested in him. He had an FFL and was accumulating "assault weapons" and high cap mags.
Partially because he was prophesying that the "Apocalypse" was approaching, partly because it was becoming more and more apparent that some sort of ban was going to be put in place. Buying up a bunch in advance of that was simply 'investing'.
If he and his crew had survived, he could have sold them (legally) for a tidy profit. Prices on 'pre-ban' stuff went through the roof for a few years.
They did find a couple hand grenades (destructive devices) and a couple full auto (machine guns) in the rubble, none of which were legally registered.
But most of what they found was semi-auto (legal), many of which were simply 'stripped receivers', which are the 'legal gun' for that sort of thing (bolt, barrel, stock, 'internals' are all considered 'parts').

It was pretty clear from the beginning that this was far more of a "make the BATF look good by arresting him" than an actual "investigation" type of thing. The BATF had a big issue with that sort if thing back then.
It seemed like they kept trying to show that they weren't like that, yet kept on pulling stunts 'just like that'. The NRA called the "jack-booted thugs" and had some really good reasons for it.

Once Koresh fought back during the raid, it got way, way out of hand for the BATF and the FBI had to take over.

And they botched it up pretty badly too. Apparently the negotiator and the head of the HRT weren't communicating very well and stuff the negotiator offered was rejected out of hand by the team leader. Which led to Koresh not believing anything the negotiator would say.

Because Koresh and the Branch Davidians were "preppers" they had food and fuel and other stuff to last for a reasonably long time without outside input. And the FBI got impatient when it became apparent that 'waiting them out' was going to take quite a while.
So they hit the building with armored vehicles, pushing powdered CS (tear gas, more or less) into the holes they knocked in the walls.
In the process, they destroyed the escape routes for the occupants and set the compound on fire.
Given the fact that they had the place surrounded and under surveillance for a long time, it's highly likely they had both audio (microphones) and video (cameras) installed in the walls. It's likely that they had a very good idea of the layout of the interior, and the location of the occupants.
So the idea that the stairway being taken down and the kerosene lamp being knocked over 'by accident' becomes a little bit hard to believe.
I still think it was more 'negligence' than 'intent', but that doesn't change the fact that they killed over 50 people that day.

I agree with everything you've said. I think the grenades they found were actually unexploded flash-bangs. But I think the series did a disservice by inaccurately portraying Koresh. He was no angel.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

airdvr

I agree with everything you've said. I think the grenades they found were actually unexploded flash-bangs. But I think the series did a disservice by inaccurately portraying Koresh. He was no angel.

That is possible, it's also possible they were the "deactivated" ones that someone filled back up with some sort of explosive and got hold of a real fuse/detonator assembly. Or maybe the feds simply planted them to have 'something to find.'

I'd actually lean towards the idea that Koresh had acquired a couple real hand grenades and maybe converted a semi auto rifle or two to full auto/select fire. It's not an easy thing to do, and given Koresh's proclivity for doomsday predictions, it's reasonable to think he might have done a couple rifles as "practice" so that when the "SHTF" (as someone on here likes to say), he could convert more as needed.

He absolutely was a piece of shit. Kind of interesting how many "prophets" and 'messiahs' show up to 'preach the word of God', yet at the same time shine 'special attention' on the female members of their 'flock'. Young ones too.
Mohamed, Joseph Smith (look at why he was lynched), Jim Jones and Koresh all did it. So did others that don't come to mind at the moment.
Koresh deserved prosecution and imprisonment, almost without a doubt.
But there are certain principles, like due process, proper court procedures, the 'Rights of the Accused', all that that simply didn't happen.
FWIW, there was some serious government misconduct in the Bundy case, which is why it was dismissed. I hate the idea of that asshole walking free, but I hate the government misconduct more.

And those sorts of documentaries have to take a side. It's how they are done. The better ones tell the truth about both sides, both good and bad. The less better ones make the side they are defending look as good as possible.
The recent "Making of a Murderer" is a good example of the latter. Stephen Avery and Brendan Dassey are both very unsavory individuals. But the makers of the film portrayed both of them as sympathetic characters (falsely).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jclalor 12]

airdvr

Watched parts 1 and 2 and the finale. To me this is a gross re-write of history and possibly dangerous.

I realize I didn't see a lot of it but what I saw painted Koresh as some sort of prophet and ATF/FBI as bumbling idiots. The truth is somewhere in the middle, with the lack of truthfulness on the real essence of David Koresh and the Davidians.

I also see it as dangerous from the viewpoint of the last thing we need right now is to get the alt-right religious fanatics stirred up again.

It was interesting for me during Waco, at the time I was working with Stephan Jones, only biological child of Jim Jones. Stephan wanted so bad to call the FBI and offer his assistance in trying to defuse the situation. In the end, he figured they would just think he’s a nut and ignore him, he never called. It sure did create some PTSD for him, during Waco he was a whole different person.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

jclalor

It was interesting for me during Waco, at the time I was working with Stephan Jones, only biological child of Jim Jones. Stephan wanted so bad to call the FBI and offer his assistance in trying to defuse the situation. In the end, he figured they would just think he’s a nut and ignore him, he never called. It sure did create some PTSD for him, during Waco he was a whole different person.

Well, I would guess that the FBI would have recognized the "Jones" name, and likely figured out who he was. They would have understood that he wasn't just 'some nut'.

But I highly doubt that they would have accepted his offer of assistance.

They were 'in control' of the situation. They 'knew what they were doing'.
There were a few people who offered real assistance and advice to the FBI. Not just 'nuts' but folks who knew and understood Koresh. All were rebuffed.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 232]

wolfriverjoe

***
It was interesting for me during Waco, at the time I was working with Stephan Jones, only biological child of Jim Jones. Stephan wanted so bad to call the FBI and offer his assistance in trying to defuse the situation. In the end, he figured they would just think he’s a nut and ignore him, he never called. It sure did create some PTSD for him, during Waco he was a whole different person.

Well, I would guess that the FBI would have recognized the "Jones" name, and likely figured out who he was. They would have understood that he wasn't just 'some nut'.

But I highly doubt that they would have accepted his offer of assistance.

They were 'in control' of the situation. They 'knew what they were doing'.
There were a few people who offered real assistance and advice to the FBI. Not just 'nuts' but folks who knew and understood Koresh. All were rebuffed.

My mother worked for ATF during that time. Internally it was felt to be a profound failure and combined with a withering budget and being kneecapped at every corner by the NRA they've fallen into complete obscurity.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

Well, what the NRA primarily did during that time was to expose a lot of abuses of power and violations of both the law and their own policies.

Bush (first one) resigned his membership over the "jackbooted thugs" accusation, but there was a lot of truth to it.

The "Gunwalker" scandal from a few years back seems to indicate that they still don't have a clue.
Just to be clear:
Gun dealers notified the ATF that suspicious people were wanting to buy a lot of guns. The ATF told those dealers to let the sales take place. The ATF claimed that there was an ongoing investigation. However, they had no assets in place to track the guns in Mexico, they had no cooperation with or even notification to Mexican authorities that this was happening.
They were simply allowing these guns to be shipped to Mexico.

Kinda funny how all the hoopla about "Mexican drug dealers are using guns bought in the US" disappeared after the facts came out.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo