So, my thread has been blocked...

[turtlespeed 212]

Coreeece

******
But some people actually end up with disease and tragedy, and then a job loss or death/injury on top of that. And some people simply cannot catch a break no matter how hard they try.

Understood, but almost 50% of the country is getting some type of assistance

Ok, but blacks only represent 12% of the country. I thought this was a much needed conversation about the cycle of violence and poverty in the inner city that has lead to the recent shootings in Dallas and Baton Rouge.

The fact is that the majority of those on assistance are either elderly or disabled, while others honestly cannot find a job or at least one that offers enough hours - and there are still others that are just too incompetent to hold a job. They cannot follow directions nor complete tasks - they are a liability.

IMO, you and bolas are overstating the amount of able body freeloaders and their effect on society. That money is gonna be allocated regardless - it's serves a legitimate purpose for those it was intended for. There are always going to be people that take advantage of the system, but I think the screening process is more effective today in limiting that abuse.

I can understand and appreciate what you're saying, but there needs to be an element of practicality. We can effectively advance an ideology that promotes personal responsibility and a strong work ethic. We can double the funding for our inner city schools and provide our children with the best education in the world, but none of it will matter if we don't have a socioeconomic structure that is capable of bringing that ideology to fruition.

It is the appearance of fraud. I used to whole heartedly believe that there was a great big huge percentage of people that were not just taking advantage of the system, but abusing it, bordering criminal. I have since modified my belief to be that there are vastly more that need the system to be in place for assistance. I'm not saying that the people that use the system don't ABUSE the system. There always those that are the lowest of the low.

I think there should be more checks and balances implemented to keep fraud from occurring. That isn't as simple to do as I want it to be. There are some very smart lazy people out there.

But yeah - for right now - it is almost working - which, from this government - is the best you can ever expect.

"Almost working" is the non governmental equivalent of flawless.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[StreetScooby 5]

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Ok, but blacks only represent 12% of the country.

This topic is actually being discussed by blacks.
https://www.facebook.com/UncleSamsMisguidedChildren.Net/videos/524313884431282/

This shit has to stop. Now.

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IMO, you and bolas are overstating the amount of able body freeloaders and their effect on society.

Hey, keep talking to me. Even better if we can put some numbers together on this.

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We can effectively advance an ideology that promotes personal responsibility and a strong work ethic.

Yeah, it's called the nuclear family. That has a mother and a father that work and teach their kids at the dinner table how to live in a civilized society. That is fundamental, IMO, to a civilized society.

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We can double the funding for our inner city schools and provide our children with the best education in the world

Charter schools are clearly the answer here. No more funding is needed.

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but none of it will matter if we don't have a socioeconomic structure that is capable of bringing that ideology to fruition

You lost me there. Can you better define what you mean by a "socioeconomic structure", please?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Oh, we have taken PLENTY of actions. Just very few correct ones.

I recall Obama saying about his new special relationship with Cuba - If it's been going on for 50 years, and it's not working, then it's time to change.

That applies in spades to this topic. It's not working. Time to change it.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

I'm hearing crickets with all of the people who seemed to have an opinion on this topic, and that I've asked how they would have this conversation. It is a conversation this country must have.

We are all engines of karma

[quade 3]

I'll assume that was simply an unfortunate choice of cliche.

That said . . . yeah . . . when talking about this subject, it's probably best to reread your stuff so people don't make less kind and unwarranted assumptions.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

StreetScooby

I'm hearing crickets with all of the people who seemed to have an opinion on this topic, and that I've asked how they would have this conversation. It is a conversation this country must have.

In an earlier post you asked why I put "America" in quotes. I did it because I was quoting you. You used the word, "America." I wanted to point out this was a problem for "America" and not simply a subset of it. That is to say, it's not a 12% issue. It's a 100% issue.

Then, later, you slipped back again and said it was "their" issue.

I disagree completely.

I think the issue started will before the country was born, and continued hypocritically as the Founding Fathers wrote the words "all men are created equal."

"We the People" bought it and broke it. "America" is responsible. Not just in part, but in whole.

As I said before, I don't have all the answers, but I think at least part of the answer is the recognition of the facts that created the situation. It was America's original sin and we continue to pay for it socially and will until the day we decide as a country, not simply a part of it, to fix it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[StreetScooby 5]

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It was America's original sin

You do realize the entire world was involved in the slave trade for hundreds of years, right? White southern plantation owners were not running around in Africa lassoing people to drag them back to the farm. It was dominant black tribes there were doing the lassoing, and they were selling to all comers. Not just white southern plantation owners living in America.

You realize this is still going on today with Muslim countries, right?

What other country, besides ours, had a civil war with 500,000 deaths to put blacks on a footing to exercise freedom, and reap the fruits of their work?

Blacks were not the only people in slavery at the time. Indentured servitude was the norm for multiple races at the time in the world's history, not just blacks.

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and we continue to pay for it socially

And it's time for the n-grs to step up and learn to take care of themselves in a civilized society. That means hard work and family commitment. I don't know of another way. Do you?

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and will until the day we decide as a country, not simply a part of it, to fix it.

And how do you suggest fixing it? I'm really curious. Have you thought this through? If you have, share it with me, please. No more platitudes about how our country needs to do more for n-grs. We've done enough. Fifty years, and it's not working. Time to change it.

We are all engines of karma

[quade 3]

StreetScooby

You do realize the entire world was involved in the slave trade for hundreds of years, right?

1. That's untrue on a number of levels.
2. Even if it was, it doesn't make it in any way, shape, or form right.

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And it's time for the n-grs to step up and learn to take care of themselves in a civilized society. That means hard work and family commitment. I don't know of another way. Do you?

Are you familiar with Maslow's Pyramid? It's a hypothesis formed to help explain how priorities control a person's ability to do anything. It essentially boils down to this, a person can't even begin to think about certain things until other, more base things are taken care of first.

It's almost impossible for people to even consider improving themselves (like going to college and getting a "good" job to support their families), if they're born struggling to to just get food and shelter. Until people have their basic survival needs met, they'll do everything and anything (including crime) to get them.

The next level above survival is basic safety.

Survival and safety. I think that's the bare minimum we owe and possibly a bit higher as well.

I don't think we can really talk much further on the subject unless we've first covered those two items.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,434]

Last warning. You can't call blacks niggers (or ni*gers, or n-gers, or any other variation on that particular slur.) From the rules:

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Personal attacks and hate posts will not be tolerated in any forum. Personal attacks on another user are a great way to earn some time off, as is posting inflammatory material specifically to provoke a negative response from someone (aka trolling). If you are unclear about what a 'troll' is, a description can be found here.

Posts that contain material that we deem to be blatantly or unnecessarily racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, pornographic, or otherwise offensive, may be removed. While discussion of certain social and political issues may require the use of sensitive or potentially offensive terms, outside of those limited contexts the use of such terms is not allowed on this board and may be removed.
===============

[Bolas 5]

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Yeah, it's called the nuclear family. That has a mother and a father that work and teach their kids at the dinner table how to live in a civilized society. That is fundamental, IMO, to a civilized society.

Would prefer this restated as a two parent family but then a mother figure and a father figure don't necessarily have to be a man and a woman.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

quade

Are you familiar with Maslow's Pyramid? It's a hypothesis formed to help explain how priorities control a person's ability to do anything. It essentially boils down to this, a person can't even begin to think about certain things until other, more base things are taken care of first.

It's almost impossible for people to even consider improving themselves (like going to college and getting a "good" job to support their families), if they're born struggling to to just get food and shelter. Until people have their basic survival needs met, they'll do everything and anything (including crime) to get them.

If they are born struggling just to have basic survival needs met, why are they having children? That's the piece that doesn't track.

Or are you stating that their situation prevents them from thinking things through and act solely on impulse and in the moment?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,434]

>If they are born struggling just to have basic survival needs met, why are they
>having children?

Evolutionary pressures. It's what we evolved to do, and it is our "default" behavior.

Would it be logical to do after a dispassionate consideration of available resources, desired quality of life and a judgment of what would be best for one's (hypothetical) children? No. But that's logic vs. basic behavioral drives.

[StreetScooby 5]

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1. That's untrue on a number of levels.

No, it's not. The British were the first to abolish slavery, and sanction the capture of slave ships in the early 1800s.
Abolition of slavery timeline

America had their civil war in the late 1800s. And a lot of people died in that war.

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...Maslow's Pyramid...

Wonderful post. I'm reading it now. A cursory overview doesn't show "hard work" or "personal responsibility" in the hierarchy, but it seems reasonable as a basis for discussion.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs

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Maslow studied what he called exemplary people such as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or neurotic people, writing that "the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy."[3] Maslow studied the healthiest 1% of the college student population.[4]

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It's almost impossible for people to even consider improving themselves (like going to college and getting a "good" job to support their families)

Who said anything about getting a "good" job? You get a job, period. Then go from there. It ain't rocket science. The kids see their dad/mom getting up to go to work, and putting food on the table, where they are hopefully taught how to function in a civilized society. And a civilized society doesn't mean you're rich. It means you take care of yourself and your family.

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Survival and safety. I think that's the bare minimum we owe and possibly a bit higher as well.

Yeah, tell that to black families in inner cities that are surrounded by n-grs. And "we" don't owe that. It's incumbent upon themselves to do so. Yet the n-grs are targeting cops because Obama says they have "legitimate grievances". That's going the wrong direction. Even worse, black families are afraid to point out the bad guys because the n-grs will hurt them. And now you have cops that are stopping active policing because the Justice Department will come after them. It's all going in the wrong direction.

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Physiological needs are the physical requirements for human survival.

That's your mom's and your dad's responsibility. If that ain't happening, then there are serious issues to be addressed in that context alone.

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Once a person's physical safety needs are relatively satisfied, their safety needs take precedence and dominate behavior.

Again, that is your mom's and your dad's responsibility.

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After physiological and safety needs are fulfilled, the third level of human needs is interpersonal and involves feelings of belongingness.

Unfortunately, for n-grs that tends to devolve into gang activity. Have these kids ever seen a responsible adult in their life? Doubtful.

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All humans have a need to feel respected; this includes the need to have self-esteem and self-respect.

Unfortunately, that tends to involve violence for n-grs. Again, no experience with responsible adults, IMO.

Actually, as Maslow said himself, he didn't bother studying anyone outside of the top 1%. So, some of my conclusions may be extrapolated beyond the initial small set of data, but my point still stands.

I'm going to re-read the post, and follow some of the links. I think the more relevant link is the one I posted about Moynihan's report is far more relevant in this conversation.

The Negro Family

Did you read this?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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You can't call blacks niggers

Did you see the link I posted? They call themselves that, and it's fundamental to this conversation. What should I use, instead? Please tell me. I can't call them blacks, because that's not who we're talking about.

There are no personal attacks are hate posts in here. I'm not advocating violence in any way shape or form.

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While discussion of certain social and political issues may require the use of sensitive or potentially offensive terms, outside of those limited contexts...

Aren't we fully in that context?

Please tell me which words I should use to hopefully drive this thread to a productive conclusion. I fully plan on having this conversation with a wide range of people around me, hopefully forged for the better by this thread.

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 2,434]

> What should I use, instead? Please tell me.

I don't care. You can't use the term niggers, even if you feel you have an excellent definition for them. (Same goes for kikes, cunts, beaners, coons etc.)

If you cannot post here without using such slurs, do not post here.

[wmw999 2,148]

Well, I guess by that standard I can talk about a bunch of assholes talking about other people. Because, after all, most skydivers reply to "Hey asshole" with "what?"

Dude, you're talking to people who have NO impact on what you consider to be someone else's problem. And you're presenting what you consider to be THE solution to someone else's problem, without acknowledging what a noticeable number of people consider to be a significant piece of it.

That's asshole behavior, in exactly the same way.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[StreetScooby 5]

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If you cannot post here without using such slurs, do not post here.

Hey, it's not my word.

So, you don't know of a better way to phrase this conversation. That's what I hear you saying. It's not blacks that are advocating death to cops.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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without acknowledging what a noticeable number of people consider to be a significant piece of it.

Maybe I've missed this. What is that significant piece you are referring to?

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That's asshole behavior, in exactly the same way.

Difficult conversation, without a doubt. I don't deny that. But I'll be god damned if I'm going to sit back while good people are being hunted. This has to stop, and it has to stop now.

We are all engines of karma

[wmw999 2,148]

The significant piece is the perception, at least (backed up by numbers) that black people specifically, and minorities in general, are singled out for enforcement disproportionately. Which gets them involved with the police, and that doesn't always end well. I realize you don't accept that, or believe it.

The disproportionate association of minorities with poverty doesn't help. Poor people are more likely to have cars with issues (like the many I drove in college and after), which also makes them targets for enforcement. Works with "known drug dealers" as well (ask my sister-in-law the drug counselor). When the police, good or bad, "know" who is bad, it's easy to just up the enforcement. Getting back to that disproportionate thing, because not all of them are guilty. Everyone is guilty of something; most of us just don't get caught.

I speed all the time. I'm 61, and white, and blonde. I've been stopped about 5 times in my life. Coincidence? I think not.

As far as police getting shot -- no, it's appalling and unacceptable. But so is shooting innocent people, and so is leaving the bodies of even guilty people out there to rot while you joke around and smoke cigarettes. All those lives matter equally.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

billvon

>If they are born struggling just to have basic survival needs met, why are they
>having children?

Evolutionary pressures. It's what we evolved to do, and it is our "default" behavior.

Would it be logical to do after a dispassionate consideration of available resources, desired quality of life and a judgment of what would be best for one's (hypothetical) children? No. But that's logic vs. basic behavioral drives.

Except in our current assistance programs such short sightedness is allowed for and in some cases practically encouraged.

It all comes down to what can be done to break the poverty cycle? Assistance alone won't do it, only perpetuate it.

Of course the myriad of public and private programs that overlap and duplicate each other complicates things as well.

Perhaps better definition and support by the government of those deemed (for lack of better word) "viable" and less or conditional support of those deemed (again, for lack of better word) "habitual."

Once again, private charities allowed to support whomever they wish but perhaps discouraged from targeting the "viable" on assistance to ensure the government assistance is fair and adequate.

Ex: Veterans charities. The more the charities provide for the veterans the less the government feels obligated to and provides even less. Cycle repeats.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[StreetScooby 5]

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If you cannot post here without using such slurs, do not post here.

Just to be clear here. I have never used this term before, and I will never use that term here again.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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I realize you don't accept that, or believe it.

You are wrong. When over 50% of crime is perpetuated by a small fraction of what amounts to 13% of the population, you better believe the cops are going to have to deal with that on a daily basis when policing "those" neighborhoods. Simply following an officers direction will correct the vast majority of this "problem". Are mistakes made? Yes. Is it actually anywhere near what the media makes of this? No. The Washington Post (a very liberal paper) just published a study on death at the hands of cops. Of over 500 death-by-cops this year, 125 were blacks. Over half those killed were whites.

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The disproportionate association of minorities with poverty doesn't help. Poor people are more likely to have cars with issues (like the many I drove in college and after), which also makes them targets for enforcement. Works with "known drug dealers" as well (ask my sister-in-law the drug counselor). When the police, good or bad, "know" who is bad, it's easy to just up the enforcement. Getting back to that disproportionate thing, because not all of them are guilty. Everyone is guilty of something; most of us just don't get caught.

Are there bad cops? Yes. Is it anywhere close to being an "epidemic"? No, it's not. Here's the link to the 2015 study done by the Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

I can't get to the 2016 study, as I'm not a paying subscriber.

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But so is shooting innocent people, and so is leaving the bodies of even guilty people out there to rot while you joke around and smoke cigarettes.

Are you claiming that's the normal course of behavior?

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All those lives matter equally.

Absolutely.

We are all engines of karma

[mistercwood 287]

This has been an interesting thread, and I'm glad you've reeled your emotions in a little more and manged to continue some discussion - the last few posts show you're slipping a little though.

Your end goals are good. But you're seeing them and (most importantly) the path there from your historical perspective - work hard, set a good example, if the parents do that then the kids will do the same. This looks straightforward to you because you already had this in your life. "They" didn't, so they don't have the same frameworks and tools to work from.

If you keep that perspective you're going to get nowhere, because you're just going to get frustrated with why "they" won't change when it looks so easy to you.

If you really, truly want to have this conversation be meaningful, you need to strip your perspective completely from the situation, and work your butt off trying to see through the eyes of the people you're trying to change.

You might also then start to see why "they" can use that word, and you can't. I truly wish you luck, because it's a hell of a big task you're looking at and a long road from reality to your end-goals.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[turtlespeed 212]

StreetScooby

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Oh, we have taken PLENTY of actions. Just very few correct ones.

I recall Obama saying about his new special relationship with Cuba - If it's been going on for 50 years, and it's not working, then it's time to change.

That applies in spades to this topic. It's not working. Time to change it.

Which was of course my point.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bolas 5]

So from your post you agree this is not a race issue, it's socioeconomic.

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As far as police getting shot -- no, it's appalling and unacceptable. But so is shooting innocent people, and so is leaving the bodies of even guilty people out there to rot while you joke around and smoke cigarettes. All those lives matter equally.

Very rarely do innocent compliant people get shot, and in those cases the officer is generally brought up on charges/convicted. However, should someone refuse to comply with an officers instructions and be seen as a threat to the public or the officers themselves they will be dealt with, force escalating as needed.

As for leaving the bodies of even guilty people out to rot, if they just tried to kill those officers, they may need some time just to destress. The police aren't robots.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.