More mass shootings

[jcd11235 0]

DJL

if they do they can't drive it inside a building and kill 17 kids, or conceal it in a bag, or kill people from 300 yards away, or do a host of other things that a firearm is designed to do by it's inherent lethality and ease of use.

It's also easier to see a vehicle coming at you than it is to see a bullet coming at you, providing a better chance of escaping harm.

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[JoeWeber 2,334]

gowlerk

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Anybody that's willing to kill a bunch of people and not have any qualms about it is by definition a psychopath. ETA - warfare as conducted under the Geneva Convention excepted.

Psychopath is a word that even professionals argue about the definition of. And there are several types of them. Very few people have no qualms about killing. Those who kill in the line of duty are no exception. At least if they kill up close and in person. Mass killers are very rarely psychopaths. But serials killers often are. Psychopaths do not want to be caught and they do not tend to kill themselves to avoid capture.

It is far easier on the mind to kill a large number of people from afar, as in dropping a bomb on them from an airplane then it is to look them in the eye and watch them die. Infantry soldiers suffer from PTSD, bombardiers do not.

one of us is capable of killing. Very few of us want to kill.

Very few of us actually do kill is, I think, closer to our circumstance. Many pathologies of the brain can and do cause aberrant behaviors. Pathologies of our neural pathways are far less understood. The advent of Fmri is offering suggestive insights, for sure. But no one has a real clue yet, for example, as to what happens in our connectomes: the wiring, if you will, that connects our neurons.

If your refrigerator wiring is too small a gage, for example, you'll have compressor problems or something.

I cannot recall right now the title but I remember first wondering about this when I saw a movie where this poor fellow was driven to kill and he told someone that when the urge struck he smelled something that to him was like pig shit and turpentine.

In the end they killed him from a helicopter, I think.

The point is that we have very little understanding about what controls our actions, mass murderers included.

[yoink 321]

jcd11235

I don't think we disagree as much as we are looking at it from different perspectives.

I agree, and think it's a great discussion to have - like you say, not necessarily in here.

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I do, however, recognize that some people might miss that distinction, including "some uneducated people".

I've just read this back to myself and realize that it doesn't come across as intended - Poor phrasing on my part.
I think a lot of people are 'uneducated' when it comes to talking about mental illness.

I'll go out on a limb and say that everyone here knows someone with some form of a mental illness - whether it's diagnosed or not.

[jimjumper 25]

"Terminal Man" by Michael Crichton. They ask him for sensation descriptions as they electro-shock areas of his brain.

[jcd11235 0]

> Poor phrasing on my part.

I only quoted it to make it clear we were referring to the same people. It was not intended as commentary on your choice of words. I did not infer judgment. Sorry if that's how it read. (Randall wrote about this very, er, something similar just yesterday.)

> I think a lot of people are 'uneducated' when it comes to talking about mental illness.

Agreed.

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[DJL 232]

I think we're all as equally qualified to make accusations of mental health and its place in gun control as we are to defend against those accusations so we're pretty much all talking out of our asses. I only know that the professionals in the field don't think there's a way to use mental health evaluations as a predictor of someone's probability of committing a mass murder and I think we all can agree that there's no F'ing way we want the government getting involved in assessing the mental health of every American.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[tkhayes 142]

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...but that's a worthy enough chunk to look at.

Problem is that we keep 'looking at it' but doing absolutely nothing about it... or the 'other 80%' either.

We do nothing. That is not good enough for the 'greatest country in the world'

[DJL 232]

tkhayes

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...but that's a worthy enough chunk to look at.

Problem is that we keep 'looking at it' but doing absolutely nothing about it... or the 'other 80%' either.

We do nothing. That is not good enough for the 'greatest country in the world'

You mean "the most stubborn country int he world".

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kallend 1,659]

jcd11235

***Stress, for example might well be the cause of someone snapping and shooting up their workplace, but it's not considered a mental illness.

Probably a topic for a new thread, but perhaps stress should be viewed as a mental illness. .

In that case, everyone in the world is mentally ill. Even newborns.

That is NOT a useful concept.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

kallend

In that case, everyone in the world is mentally ill. Even newborns.

Virtually everyone in the world is, at least from time to time, mentally unwell. Most mental illnesses exist on a continuum. Mental health status isn't binary or static. More people better understanding that would be very useful.

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[kallend 1,659]

jcd11235

***In that case, everyone in the world is mentally ill. Even newborns.

Virtually everyone in the world is, at least from time to time, mentally unwell. Most mental illnesses exist on a continuum. Mental health status isn't binary or static. More people better understanding that would be very useful.

Just being born is stressful. Getting up in the morning is stressful. Driving on the highway is stressful. Going on a first date is stressful. To say that "stress" qualifies as mental illness is absurd.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bob_Church 7]

tkhayes

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...but that's a worthy enough chunk to look at.

Problem is that we keep 'looking at it' but doing absolutely nothing about it... or the 'other 80%' either.

We do nothing. That is not good enough for the 'greatest country in the world'

I think it's great that young people are demonstrating about gun control and I really do hate to criticize anything they say but the latest from Athens County high school students has me scratching my head. They want high school classes in safe gun handling. What does that have to do with stopping people from coming into schools and shooting people? And it doesn't even fit into the "well it couldn't hurt" category because this same school system has had to cut drivers Ed due to budget cuts. So what would they cut for this thing? This makes absolutely no sense to me.
Something I think could help a lot, and I'm surprised it isn't law are laws requiring guns to be secured. It wouldn't be easy to enforce but when it does come up they should be strict about punishing it. Your home was burglarized and they stole your arsenal. So how did they get the safe open? What no safe? No cable locking them down? Then no insurance and a serious criminal charge. All of these other laws don't mean much when kids can just go in their parent's bedroom and take the one from the drawer next to the bed, or buy stolen ones.

[jcd11235 0]

kallend

Just being born is stressful. Getting up in the morning is stressful. Driving on the highway is stressful. Going on a first date is stressful. To say that "stress" qualifies as mental illness is absurd.

Perhaps I should have been more precise and specified prolonged or extreme stress. That being said, there is nothing absurd about acknowledging that stress affects mental health.

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[tkhayes 142]

all good common sense ideas, however, common sense does not prevail here. lobby interest groups and hype prevail, and it is working for the gun lobby and always has.

requiring laws that guns be secure and locked up conflict directly with open carry and defending ones property and person, since you cannot get to the gun if you are attacked, or so the relentless (yawn) narrative goes.

And yes, we will find money to buy more cops in schools, arm teachers, offer training, better doors and security features, and still NEVER find the money for better programs, materials and teachers.

Until Americans wakes up tot the fact that they are being duped, I doubt much will change. But it is also what they want. They WANT common sense background checks, better gun laws, but they WANT to be able to shoot AR-15's on a Saturday afternoon and unload 100's of rounds of ammo at a pile of whatever junk in their back yard as well.

Present all the facts you want, all the data you can, it's the best you can do, but America has departed fact-based ideology for decades now and we are paying the price for it in many many ways, not just guns.

[kallend 1,659]

jcd11235

***Just being born is stressful. Getting up in the morning is stressful. Driving on the highway is stressful. Going on a first date is stressful. To say that "stress" qualifies as mental illness is absurd.

Perhaps I should have been more precise and specified prolonged or extreme stress. That being said, there is nothing absurd about acknowledging that stress affects mental health.

Maybe, but what you wrote was "but perhaps stress should be viewed as a mental illness." That IS absurd, since stress is a stimulus, not an outcome.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

kallend

… but what you wrote was "but perhaps stress should be viewed as a mental illness." That IS absurd ….

There are less obnoxious ways to be pedantic, Professor.

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[kallend 1,659]

jcd11235

***… but what you wrote was "but perhaps stress should be viewed as a mental illness." That IS absurd ….

There are less obnoxious ways to be pedantic, Professor.

All we know is what you write - WORDS. Words have meaning.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,362]

Bob_Church

I think it's great that young people are demonstrating about gun control and I really do hate to criticize anything they say but the latest from Athens County high school students has me scratching my head. They want high school classes in safe gun handling. What does that have to do with stopping people from coming into schools and shooting people? And it doesn't even fit into the "well it couldn't hurt" category because this same school system has had to cut drivers Ed due to budget cuts. So what would they cut for this thing? This makes absolutely no sense to me...

It can be done without costing the school system anything (or very little).
A high school near me has a phys ed "Life Sports" class. The idea is exposing them to stuff they will actually continue to do once they leave school. Rollerblading, frisbee golf, laser tag, weightlifting & other workouts, archery and guns (and a lot more). It's usually a day or two for each activity. Kids pay the fees for each thing.
Both the archery and guns are taught by a local hunter's safety teacher, who volunteers her time. Archer is free, she has the bows & arrows and there are a couple local municipal archery ranges.
Guns cost the cost of the ammunition (which is paid by the kids individually, not by the school). The local shooting range allows the school to bring the kids down for no charge and several of the range staff volunteer their time.
Guns are usually 2 days per term. 1st day is spent with 22 bolt action rifles, teaching basic safety, range rules and marksmanship. 2nd day they have the opportunity to try a wide variety of guns. AR-15 & AK-47, larger caliber bolt action hunting rifles, and pistols ranging from 22 up to 45 cal.
No student is required to shoot anything, and while we encourage, we don't 'push' anyone to shoot anything they don't want to.
There's usually one or two each time that have never even seen a real gun up close, are frightened and intimidated by them and are very uncomfortable. But they listen, pay attention, do what they are taught and really enjoy themselves. Those are often the kids who are most disappointed the 2nd day when it's all done.
We've been doing this about 10 years (I am one of the range staff who volunteers to help). No problems, no issues.
When it all started, the teacher who was putting the class proposal together called the then-president of the range (who is also the husband of the Hunter's Safety instructor) and explained the idea. He didn't know about getting access to the range, or finding guns, or ammunition or instructors or anything.
The president basically said:
"You get permission to do this, get the kids down to the range and pay for the ammunition we use, we will take care of the rest."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 18]

Yes, you are being duped!


And, you don't have the data. Gun rights people have the data. All you have is spin.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

rushmc

And, you don't have the data. Gun rights people have the data. All you only have is spin.

Corrected to reflect reality.

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[kallend 1,659]

rushmc

Yes, you are being duped!


And, you don't have the data. Gun rights people have the data. All you have is spin.

Marc is back in his Looking Glass universe.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,362]

jcd11235

***And, you don't have the data. Gun rights people have the data. All you only have is spin.

Corrected to reflect reality.

Well, to imply that only the gun rights crowd spins the info is naive.

The ways the anti crowd demonizes guns with inaccurate rhetoric, aided by the 'liberal media' who usually only report one side of the story, and sometimes even broadcasts outright falsehoods (CNNs story on "assault weapons" shortly before the '94 ban is one of the better examples).

The recent posts on self-defense use of guns is another good example. NRA claims that it's a couple million per year (which is likely bad data). VPC claims its in the 'tens of thousands' (which is also likely not accurate).

NRA's data comes from a survey that collected anecdotal information. Much of which was 'self reported' and unable to be verified - If someone brandishes a gun to frighten off an intruder or street thug and never calls the cops, it's still a 'defensive gun use', but there's no way to establish whether or not it ever happened.

OTOH, the VPC claims numbers a lot lower. Going by their past behavior, it's likely that their numbers only include incidents where attackers were actually shot and wounded (or something like that). While those numbers are probably accurate and verifiable, the reality is that DGUs rarely involve shots fired, let alone dead or wounded attackers (last claim I heard was less than 10% of DGUs involve shots fired). So it's likely that the VPC numbers are far lower than reality.

The correct number is probably somewhere between 'millions and tens of thousands.'

But it's doubtful you will ever get the NRA to agree that they are lower. Or the VPC to admit they are higher.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kallend 1,659]

In the absence of truly verifiable data I will point out the following:

Reported crime rates in the USA EXCLUDING gun homicides are broadly comparable with the rest of the developed world. If we add in the unreported but claimed as prevented by legal gun owner crimes that Kleck, Lott and the NRA count, then the US crime rate is now way out of line with the rest of the developed world.

I find it hard to believe that the US population is so out of line with the rest of the developed world with respect to criminality.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bob_Church 7]

Jerry Waters, retired skydiver, part time newspaper and radio reporter and self-professed full time world's biggest asshole, was walking around Charleston Wv one night and realized that He Was It. There had been a series of robberies where one guy would come up to you and talk, asking for a light or directions or something, while the other would come up from behind and you'd wake up in the hospital nearly dead and your valuables all gone. This piece of shit was running a line while he could see the other guy move from the alley to get behind him. Jerry didn't say a word, he just lifted his shirt, exposing is perfectly legal pistol and the one talking to him actually excused himself then left.
They got someone else that night, it was in the paper, and they were caught in another week or so. But as for Jerry's actions there was never any report or record made. It just happened.

[jcd11235 0]

wolfriverjoe

… the reality is that DGUs rarely involve shots fired …

Are you saying the guns are used as blunt instruments in ~90% DGUs, or are you saying the guns were not actually used (thus not a DGU).

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