More mass shootings

[billvon 2,792]

>I didn't say single exit. I said single entry.

No such thing. If there's an exit door (even if it's locked on the outside, has alarms, has a siren) it's an entrance door too. Schools across the country have tried to maintain "one way" emergency doors for years for very pedestrian reasons - keeping kids from cutting, being able to see everyone who comes in, keeping recent grads out who are causing trouble etc. Never works. Kids aren't dumb, and can figure ways around any emergency exit.

In New York City a few decades ago there was a case study in this. A high school was doing everything it could to keep gangs out - alarms on the doors, locking them from the inside, sirens etc. The kids got around everything. Finally the principal chained the emergency doors shut, gave all the teachers keys and trained them to open all the doors once the fire alarm went off. It worked for a while. Then the health department raided them; the principal was arrested for endangering students.

[GeorgiaDon 355]

Quote

I said single entry.

The average enrollment for public schools in Georgia is 763 students (source). If you can process 2 students/minute (metal detector, running backpack through an X-ray, etc) it would take 6 1/2 hours to get them all into the building. If class starts at 9 AM they would have to be in line around 2:30 in the morning. Does that sound reasonable to you? We won't even discuss the cost for now.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[DJL 235]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

I said single entry.

The average enrollment for public schools in Georgia is 763 students (source). If you can process 2 students/minute (metal detector, running backpack through an X-ray, etc) it would take 6 1/2 hours to get them all into the building. If class starts at 9 AM they would have to be in line around 2:30 in the morning. Does that sound reasonable to you? We won't even discuss the cost for now.

Don

Careful, he might call you a libtard for coming up with valid points....

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[nolhtairt 0]

Fair enough.

Then pretty much the only thing other than more gun control (good luck with that) is more thorough vetting of potential threats based on behavior/reported complaints. Parents also need to be more proactive and attuned to their kids' issues, and stop believing their kids can do no wrong.

Take the guns away, then what? They'll find other ways/weapons. The Texas kid had pipe bombs as well. You have to address the sociological issues affecting these kids and deal with them appropriately.

Lastly, something changed along the way since the 80's. I don't remember ever hearing about a school shooting where a kid went in and shot a bunch of others when I was in school. Now we're getting what, a mass school shooting every couple of months?

[Bob_Church 7]

If we approached skydiving the way we do school shootings we'd endlessly debate how to eliminate gravity and never bother with parachutes. Then wonder why people keep dying.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

If we approached skydiving the way we do school shootings we'd endlessly debate

....wing loading vs. experience and decide education is better than regulation.

Derek V

[Bob_Church 7]

Hooknswoop

Quote

If we approached skydiving the way we do school shootings we'd endlessly debate

....wing loading vs. experience and decide education is better than regulation.

Derek V

And about those cameras......

Guns are like gravity, we're not going to eliminate them and we might not be too happy if we did.
Like nolhtairt said, what changed?
We have school shootings and a surge in teen suicides. Why?
Are we willing to discuss solutions that might mean giving up something we don't want to give up?

[billvon 2,792]

>Then pretty much the only thing other than more gun control (good luck with that) is more
>thorough vetting of potential threats based on behavior/reported complaints.

That's just one part of the solution.

Another is better mental health care. Start treating mental health like any other health issue; preventative care is cheaper/more effective than solving the problem after it manifests itself.

That can't happen until we understand the causes of gun violence better. Start funding CDC research into the causes of gun violence. It recently became possible to do this again; we should start. (Which means spending more money on research than on aircraft carriers - but that's something we should be doing anyway.)

Enable earlier interventions. Give police the power to remove weapons from someone who, based on medical opinion, poses a high risk of violence.

And yes, work on gun laws. It's time for universal background checks, period. Limit access to weapons that enable mass murder. I am not in favor of "assault weapons bans" because that term is very nebulous, and the previous criteria were not a good match for the weapons capable of causing the most damage. A simpler criteria is needed - a restriction based on energy and power, for example, is both easier to quantify and enforce, and harder to get around.

>Take the guns away, then what? They'll find other ways/weapons.

Yes, they will. Which is why we need more than just gun legislation (see above.) Gun legislation just makes it harder to kill a lot of people at once, which is a good thing.

>Lastly, something changed along the way since the 80's. I don't remember ever hearing
>about a school shooting where a kid went in and shot a bunch of others when I was in
>school. Now we're getting what, a mass school shooting every couple of months?

The number of mass shootings hasn't changed - each one is just getting more deadly, on average. That is likely due to the ready availability of more powerful weapons capable of projecting more lead downrange more quickly. We don't know for sure, of course, since research into such things has been banned until very recently.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/04/mass-shootings-more-deadly-frequent-research-215678

Further, the total number of people killed by firearms in the US has remained pretty steady - and is vastly higher than the number of people killed in school shootings. Preventing such shootings is far more important, from an overall safety perspective, than concentrating on school shootings to the exclusion of other gun deaths. Bringing down the _total_ should be the goal - and will likely have the fortunate side effect of reducing school school shootings as well.

[rushmc 21]

Yes! He does think you're stupid! You don't agree with him and he's a liberal.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rifleman 66]

Do you mean apart from the Cleveland Elementary School Shooting, San Diego in 1979?

Two adults (the principal and custodian) dead, 8 children and one LEO wounded. The reason? "I don't like Mondays."

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[yoink 321]

rushmc

Yes! He does think you're stupid! You don't agree with him and he's a liberal.

NOT A LIBERAL!!!!

Burn him at the stake!!!!

[nolhtairt 0]

rifleman

Do you mean apart from the Cleveland Elementary School Shooting, San Diego in 1979?

Two adults (the principal and custodian) dead, 8 children and one LEO wounded. The reason? "I don't like Mondays."

Is that the only one? I was like 11 or 12 and not all that connected to the news at the time.

[nolhtairt 0]

billvon

>Then pretty much the only thing other than more gun control (good luck with that) is more
>thorough vetting of potential threats based on behavior/reported complaints.

That's just one part of the solution.

Another is better mental health care. Start treating mental health like any other health issue; preventative care is cheaper/more effective than solving the problem after it manifests itself.

That can't happen until we understand the causes of gun violence better. Start funding CDC research into the causes of gun violence. It recently became possible to do this again; we should start. (Which means spending more money on research than on aircraft carriers - but that's something we should be doing anyway.)

Enable earlier interventions. Give police the power to remove weapons from someone who, based on medical opinion, poses a high risk of violence.

And yes, work on gun laws. It's time for universal background checks, period. Limit access to weapons that enable mass murder. I am not in favor of "assault weapons bans" because that term is very nebulous, and the previous criteria were not a good match for the weapons capable of causing the most damage. A simpler criteria is needed - a restriction based on energy and power, for example, is both easier to quantify and enforce, and harder to get around.

>Take the guns away, then what? They'll find other ways/weapons.

Yes, they will. Which is why we need more than just gun legislation (see above.) Gun legislation just makes it harder to kill a lot of people at once, which is a good thing.

>Lastly, something changed along the way since the 80's. I don't remember ever hearing
>about a school shooting where a kid went in and shot a bunch of others when I was in
>school. Now we're getting what, a mass school shooting every couple of months?

The number of mass shootings hasn't changed - each one is just getting more deadly, on average. That is likely due to the ready availability of more powerful weapons capable of projecting more lead downrange more quickly. We don't know for sure, of course, since research into such things has been banned until very recently.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/04/mass-shootings-more-deadly-frequent-research-215678

Further, the total number of people killed by firearms in the US has remained pretty steady - and is vastly higher than the number of people killed in school shootings. Preventing such shootings is far more important, from an overall safety perspective, than concentrating on school shootings to the exclusion of other gun deaths. Bringing down the _total_ should be the goal - and will likely have the fortunate side effect of reducing school school shootings as well.

All good points. My view is parents today have become pussies when it comes to discipline and engaging with their kids on a daily basis. They just give the kids electronic games and smart phones and shit and leave them alone while they use their own smart phones to catch up on the news and social media.

Back in my day, dad would whip our asses if we got out of line. Even mom wasn't to be trifled with. And we grew up pretty good. I'm tough on my kids but without the ass-whippings. They know what they're expected to do and not do. Even then it's a completely different world these days in school than what I grew up with.

I feel confident that I'm in the right school district. Good schools, good teachers, and the high school principal is a former marine who runs a tight ship and doesn't take insolence from anyone. Unfortunately that's more of an outlier these days than the norm.

As for guns in the house, keep them locked the fuck up, and make your kids understand they do not touch them without your consent. As for the texas shooter, yes the father failed and is going to face lawsuits, maybe criminal charges. And what's especially galling is his kid had made pipe bombs. Did the dad know about that, if not... that's a massive failure at parenting. Know what your kid is up to. They are always smarter than you think they are. Don't ever underestimate them even if you don't believe they are capable of horrendous acts. Monitoring your kids' social media activity, whether they like it or not, can catch certain trends. Be active in engaging with your kids on a daily basis, how was their day, any issues? Make sure they feel comfortable sharing whats on their minds.

Unfortunately we can't stop every single troubled kid from doing something. But yes, improved mental health and better vetting/screening of potential threats is a good place to start, and lock up the guns at home.

[jcd11235 0]

nolhtairt

Back in my day, dad would whip our asses if we got out of line. Even mom wasn't to be trifled with.

And you've grown into such a well-adjusted adult.

Consider the possibility that violence is not always the answer.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DJL 235]

Quote

Make sure they feel comfortable sharing whats on their minds.

Son: Hey Mom, I was thinking about grabbing Dad's guns and mowing down everyone at school who has picked on me.

Mom: Well, first...it's so great that you wanted to share this with us.


Anyway, yes, engaging with your children is very important but the world is a vast swath of situations ranging from Leave it to Beaver to severely abusive family situations. As has been said repeatedly by mental health professionals, it's nearly impossible to make a prediction that any given patient will commit a mass murder. Think about the number of humans we're dealing with here. Next, that advice or court order is not effective if guns are so easy to obtain. Yes, lock the guns up. I'd love to see mandatory gun safes and trigger locks.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[rifleman 66]

nolhtairt

***Do you mean apart from the Cleveland Elementary School Shooting, San Diego in 1979?

Two adults (the principal and custodian) dead, 8 children and one LEO wounded. The reason? "I don't like Mondays."

Is that the only one? I was like 11 or 12 and not all that connected to the news at the time.

There probably were others but that particular one made the headlines mainly because it became the theme of a song by the Boomtown Rats and partly because of the throwaway answer given to a journalist by the shooter.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[nolhtairt 0]

jcd11235

***Back in my day, dad would whip our asses if we got out of line. Even mom wasn't to be trifled with.

And you've grown into such a well-adjusted adult.

Consider the possibility that violence is not always the answer.

You conveniently cherry-picked my comments... and left this out: "I'm tough on my kids but without the ass-whippings."

It worked back then, but we can't do that now.

[jcd11235 0]

nolhtairt

It worked back then, but we can't do that now.

The thing is, it didn't work so well back then either. Unfortunately, nearly everyone, no matter how f'ed up they actually turned out, thinks they "turned out just fine." Many, however, did not.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,792]

>It worked back then, but we can't do that now.

I don't think it worked that well. Violent crime in the US peaked in 1980, then again in 1991, when all those kids from "back then" had become adults. Corporal punishment may well have played into that. Teaching kids that violence is a good way to get what you want has some obvious drawbacks.

[jclalor 12]

rifleman

Do you mean apart from the Cleveland Elementary School Shooting, San Diego in 1979?

Two adults (the principal and custodian) dead, 8 children and one LEO wounded. The reason? "I don't like Mondays."

That shooting was easy to understand; The silicon chip inside her head got switched to overload.

[nolhtairt 0]

billvon

>It worked back then, but we can't do that now.

I don't think it worked that well. Violent crime in the US peaked in 1980, then again in 1991, when all those kids from "back then" had become adults. Corporal punishment may well have played into that. Teaching kids that violence is a good way to get what you want has some obvious drawbacks.

Well I didn't turn violent. I didn't get into fights as an adult. Sure I was bullied in school and my scars from that are worse than anything my parents did. How about our grandparents? The way my folks explained it, they had even less tolerance for stupidity and back talk. They worked hard, my folks worked hard, I work hard. Granted, not everybody turns out all right. It all depends on how they process their memories and move on or not. I've got a good relationship with my folks. So there's that.

[billvon 2,792]

>Well I didn't turn violent. I didn't get into fights as an adult.

Right; neither did I. We're talking about fractions of a percent of the population who will be influenced to be more violent by the violence they experienced as children.

>It all depends on how they process their memories and move on or not. I've got a good
>relationship with my folks. So there's that.

I'd argue that that is far more important than almost any other factor.

[Bob_Church 7]

jclalor

***Do you mean apart from the Cleveland Elementary School Shooting, San Diego in 1979?

Two adults (the principal and custodian) dead, 8 children and one LEO wounded. The reason? "I don't like Mondays."

That shooting was easy to understand; The silicon chip inside her head got switched to overload.

And she lived across the street from the school. Whatever set her off that particular morning, if she'd lived across from a grocery store it probably would have been a bad day for early bird shoppers.
After years of being in trouble and being declared suicidal, when she asked for a radio for Christmas her excuse for a father gave her the gun instead. More like than likely she's correct in assuming he was hoping she'd kill herself with it.

[rushmc 21]

Wow! The fed's reported today that the safest place for kids to be as in school! Less than 3% of their deaths happen there. Can't make this stuff up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,792]

>The fed's reported today that the safest place for kids to be as in school! Less than
>3% of their deaths happen there. Can't make this stuff up

You're not really following the conversation, are you.