The State of Socialism in the World

[lawrocket 3]

Hiding in the news the last few months has been the situation in Venezuela. Now Venezuela certainly had some problems that could have used some help. However, the Venezuelans fell prey to the manipulation of a power hungry individual that set out to punish the wealthy. Doing so would bring more power to the poor and hhe poor would rise up and things would be better.

I actually have some friends that viewed Chavez as a hero to the working man. What has been the inevitable result of Chavez?

Inflation. Scarcity. Most figures put Venezuelans inflation at 200% per year. Many now say it's closer to 500% per annum. When j was a kid I remember the stories about how people would wait in lines for toilet paper. Turns out that is exactly what has been going on in Venezuela.

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/02/07/384331225/rich-in-oil-venezuela-is-now-poor-in-most-everything-else

How does the Venezuelan leadership respond? Of course. They blame businesses and impose even tighter restrictions. In doing so, they have made Venezuela one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere. Venezuela is loaded with oil. There is the opportunity for vast wealth but because there is no free market and a tremendous bureaucracy, that wealth evaporates.

The government directs the economy and doesn't allow the economy to direct itself. Do markets have problems? Sure they do. Do markets work? Yes. The article showed something telling: it mentioned that there were 30 pasta factories before the government became heavy handed in regulations. Now there are five. Regulations killed off 80% of the companies. This is what we see in the US as corporations consolidate and drive out competition.

Here is something that bears pointing out. Inflation is worse in Venezuela than in Syria. Products flow better to consumers in Syria (which is at war) than in Venezuela. Not even war can destroy an economy and impoverish a people the way that progressive ideals can.

On the other side of the planet is Greece. We are at the point where it is time to stop even hoping that Greece won't default on its debt. It's at about 200% GDP. It will happen. All the while hhe Greek government is being more ridiculous. It's not the debt and massive handouts that would cause it. It's that the creditors want to get paid back. That is the cause of the problem.

In the coming season I have no doubt that we will see people campaigning on the same issues as Chavez. Even proposing the same solutions.

I take no issue with the ideal that good socialism is better than bad capitalism. I do, however, see some pretty stark evidence that bad capitalism is better than bad socialism and that good capitalism is better than the best socialism.

Keep in mind the warnings of history. Past history and recent history. Would you rather be in America in the 2008 economy or in Venezuela or Greece? That's comparing bad capitalism with bad socialism.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Driver1 0]

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Would you rather be in America in the 2008 economy or in Venezuela or Greece?

America, hands down.

There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

[billvon 2,400]

> Would you rather be in America in the 2008 economy or in Venezuela or Greece?
>That's comparing bad capitalism with bad socialism.

Well, that's comparing a mix of socialism and capitalism to pure socialism. Any pure "-ism" is going to have problems. If we have a strength, it's that we know how to pick and choose the good parts of each system while rejecting the bad parts.

[lawrocket 3]

billvon

> Would you rather be in America in the 2008 economy or in Venezuela or Greece?
>That's comparing bad capitalism with bad socialism.

Well, that's comparing a mix of socialism and capitalism to pure socialism. Any pure "-ism" is going to have problems. If we have a strength, it's that we know how to pick and choose the good parts of each system while rejecting the bad parts.

I'm not so sure that is the case. Rhetoric too often prevails over science and history. History has demonstrated time and again that soaking the rich doesn't rise up the poor. Science and math show that price controls create scarcity and turmoil.

But it keeps happening. Even New York is now touting it's friendlier business climate. Because it has figured out that taxing businesses so much means there are fewer businesses to tax. They will do better by taking less out of a bigger pool.

But Warren ND Sanders become superstars. I seriously wonder whether low educational achievement is a goal to maintain a population that is gullible enough to suck up rhetoric that history and math show tk be farcical.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,400]

> Even New York is now touting it's friendlier business climate.

Absolutely! And what makes up that better business climate?

-Lower taxes
-Easing of environmental restrictions
-Good roads to ship product
-Reliable power, water and other utilities/services
-Fast net access for their servers

To provide all that in New York takes the right mix of capitalist and socialist services.

[lawrocket 3]

Very nice points. And it's sad to me that such things as maintaining roads are disfavored along the policy makers. California is $60 billion behind in road maintenance. And I don't think that the Governor wants that eaten into. High speed rail is his priority

Reliable power is disfavored in name of investment in cleaner power.

Reliable water? That's a problem for you and me and the past decade we've discussed it. And nothing has happened. Because of environmental restrictions that haven't been and won't be eased. And high speed rail is more important than water. brown has made that we'll known.

There are so many places where those things you mentioned are not viewed as priorities. Like here in California. I understand why it is that these aren't priorities. Progress mea s moving away from the traditional roles of government and expanding into new areas.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,400]

>Reliable power is disfavored in name of investment in cleaner power.

And yet both here and in NY we have both. So something worked there.

>Reliable water? That's a problem for you and me and the past decade we've discussed
>it. And nothing has happened. Because of environmental restrictions that haven't been
>and won't be eased. And high speed rail is more important than water.

How do you figure? California spends $16 billion a year on water supplies (maintenance, new construction) $10 billion a year on pollution mitigation in watersheds (to ensure supply safety) and $2 billion a year on flood management. Plus an emergency $600 million in drought relief for 2015. So this year it looks like California will spend $29 billion on water, with a similar level most years (minus the drought relief hopefully.)

The high speed rail project is going to cost $4.5 billion a year. So to me it looks like we consider water to be more than six times as important as high speed rail.

[quade 3]

Rather than looking at the bottom, the failure scenarios, why not look at the top?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

According to this, the US isn't too far off the top. It's not a pure anything, but a mix. I'll go so far as to say that any country worth living in is a healthy mix; that civilization itself requires at least a bit of socialism.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

quade

Rather than looking at the bottom, the failure scenarios, why not look at the top?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

According to this, the US isn't too far off the top. It's not a pure anything, but a mix. I'll go so far as to say that any country worth living in is a healthy mix; that civilization itself requires at least a bit of socialism.

I thought I was pretty clear that I see the need for some government. Thanks good socialism is better than bad capitalism. But you are right. It shows we are looking pretty good. And historically we have looked pretty good. And yet we'll go do Medicare prescription drug coverage. Because we are looking good and don't like that we are. Or we'll do Obamacare. Because we were looking good. Let's fuck with a large part of the economy and see what we can do.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Coreeece 2]

billvon

If we have a strength, it's that we know how to pick and choose the good parts of each system while rejecting the bad parts.

Ya...we could probably even refine capitalism a bit more, but the idea of social capitalism hasn't seemed to have caught on yet...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[ibx 2]

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Ya...we could probably even refine capitalism a bit more, but the idea of social capitalism hasn't seemed to have caught on yet...

In western Europe it has. Germany's economy is based on exactly that for the last 60 years and it's arguably the most successful on earth right now.

[Coreeece 2]

ibx

Quote

Ya...we could probably even refine capitalism a bit more, but the idea of social capitalism hasn't seemed to have caught on yet...

In western Europe it has. Germany's economy is based on exactly that for the last 60 years and it's arguably the most successful on earth right now.

No argument there...Germany has invested in education the last 30 years while we were distracted with living the good life on credit...

My Muslim neighbors that I mentioned in other threads came to the US from Bosnia...after the housing/automotive crisis in Detroit, they left for Germany.

...it speaks volumes.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[grimmie 173]

A few good reads...
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/corruption-democracy-venezuela From a while back. Mostly about how Chavez screwed it up.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/14/news/economy/venezuela-debt-default-citgo/

http://www.academia.edu/3012427/Corruption_in_Venezuela_101_The_Basics_for_Understanding_the_Phenomenon

The government is very corrupt. Money earmarked for the public gets stolen constantly. I was in Venezuela for 9 days in 2001. The people had hope for Chavez to fix things.

There is more than just Socialism at work there wrecking the nation.

[ds8221 0]

We have an idiot presidential candidate who would be happy to make us into Venezuela.


[URL]http://michellemalkin.com/2015/05/26/bernie-sanders-foul-socialist-odor/[/url]

[SkyDekker 1,123]

grimmie

A few good reads...
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/corruption-democracy-venezuela From a while back. Mostly about how Chavez screwed it up.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/14/news/economy/venezuela-debt-default-citgo/

http://www.academia.edu/3012427/Corruption_in_Venezuela_101_The_Basics_for_Understanding_the_Phenomenon

The government is very corrupt. Money earmarked for the public gets stolen constantly. I was in Venezuela for 9 days in 2001. The people had hope for Chavez to fix things.

There is more than just Socialism at work there wrecking the nation.

Same goes for Greece. The Greek have had a historical aversion to paying taxes. Avoiding taxes is a national sport for them.

A socialist framework combined with a enormous, cultural aversion to paying taxes and you have a recipe for distaster, which is exactly what is happening.

[Andy9o8 0]

SkyDekker

***A few good reads...
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/corruption-democracy-venezuela From a while back. Mostly about how Chavez screwed it up.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/14/news/economy/venezuela-debt-default-citgo/

http://www.academia.edu/3012427/Corruption_in_Venezuela_101_The_Basics_for_Understanding_the_Phenomenon

The government is very corrupt. Money earmarked for the public gets stolen constantly. I was in Venezuela for 9 days in 2001. The people had hope for Chavez to fix things.

There is more than just Socialism at work there wrecking the nation.

Same goes for Greece. The Greek have had a historical aversion to paying taxes. Avoiding taxes is a national sport for them.

A socialist framework combined with a enormous, cultural aversion to paying taxes and you have a recipe for distaster, which is exactly what is happening.

Instructively, compare to, for example, Sweden, where the levels of both socialism and taxation are fairly high, but the level of corruption is quite low, and there is a fairly high aggregate social tolerance for taxation.

[Guest]

Andy9o8

******A few good reads...
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/corruption-democracy-venezuela From a while back. Mostly about how Chavez screwed it up.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/14/news/economy/venezuela-debt-default-citgo/

http://www.academia.edu/3012427/Corruption_in_Venezuela_101_The_Basics_for_Understanding_the_Phenomenon

The government is very corrupt. Money earmarked for the public gets stolen constantly. I was in Venezuela for 9 days in 2001. The people had hope for Chavez to fix things.

There is more than just Socialism at work there wrecking the nation.

Same goes for Greece. The Greek have had a historical aversion to paying taxes. Avoiding taxes is a national sport for them.

A socialist framework combined with a enormous, cultural aversion to paying taxes and you have a recipe for distaster, which is exactly what is happening.

Instructively, compare to, for example, Sweden, where the levels of both socialism and taxation are fairly high, but the level of corruption is quite low, and there is a fairly high aggregate social tolerance for taxation.

Now you're engaging culture, and citing a place which (unlike the US) places a high collective premium upon education.

Seems to me that the oligarchy here in the US prefers uneducated peasants versus informed citizens participating in the process. Venezuela indeed.

OTOH there is still a lot of passionate "Viva la Revolución" populist BS down there. It's what Chavez cashed in on and used to his advantage, but in truth he was only the latest in a long line of banana republic dictators with funny hats who did the same thing. The reverence for cowardly murderers like Ernesto Guevara is the most obvious example of a truly backward culture.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

there is still a lot of passionate "Viva la Revolución" populist BS down there.

Seeds like that don't grow in the absence of rich soil within which to find purchase in the first place.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

Andy9o8

******A few good reads...
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/corruption-democracy-venezuela From a while back. Mostly about how Chavez screwed it up.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/14/news/economy/venezuela-debt-default-citgo/

http://www.academia.edu/3012427/Corruption_in_Venezuela_101_The_Basics_for_Understanding_the_Phenomenon

The government is very corrupt. Money earmarked for the public gets stolen constantly. I was in Venezuela for 9 days in 2001. The people had hope for Chavez to fix things.

There is more than just Socialism at work there wrecking the nation.

Same goes for Greece. The Greek have had a historical aversion to paying taxes. Avoiding taxes is a national sport for them.

A socialist framework combined with a enormous, cultural aversion to paying taxes and you have a recipe for distaster, which is exactly what is happening.

Instructively, compare to, for example, Sweden, where the levels of both socialism and taxation are fairly high, but the level of corruption is quite low, and there is a fairly high aggregate social tolerance for taxation.

Fully agreed.

[lawrocket 3]

Andy9o8

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there is still a lot of passionate "Viva la Revolución" populist BS down there.

Seeds like that don't grow in the absence of rich soil within which to find purchase in the first place.

Isn't that what David Duke said about hatin' the blacks? IF there wasn't so much to hate then they wouldn't be hated. Look at the fertile Jew hatin' ground that was set up for time immemorial.

It's far easier to be the enabler that foments hate and blame. That's why you see folks out there who focus on bringing down someone else or something else. Chavez did what they brought him in to do: take down the wealthy and industry. Turns out they forgot that bringing others down doesn't bring them up.

Helping people is hard. So make people think you are helping them by hurting others is where it goes. Feed anger and use it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,623]

lawrocket

***

Quote

there is still a lot of passionate "Viva la Revolución" populist BS down there.

Seeds like that don't grow in the absence of rich soil within which to find purchase in the first place.

Isn't that what David Duke said about hatin' the blacks? IF there wasn't so much to hate then they wouldn't be hated. Look at the fertile Jew hatin' ground that was set up for time immemorial.

It's far easier to be the enabler that foments hate and blame. That's why you see folks out there who focus on bringing down someone else or something else. Chavez did what they brought him in to do: take down the wealthy and industry. Turns out they forgot that bringing others down doesn't bring them up.

Helping people is hard. So make people think you are helping them by hurting others is where it goes. Feed anger and use it.
Yep, those billionaire hedge fund managers would sure be hurt if they had to pay tax at the same rate the middle class does.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

kallend

******

Quote

there is still a lot of passionate "Viva la Revolución" populist BS down there.

Seeds like that don't grow in the absence of rich soil within which to find purchase in the first place.

Isn't that what David Duke said about hatin' the blacks? IF there wasn't so much to hate then they wouldn't be hated. Look at the fertile Jew hatin' ground that was set up for time immemorial.

It's far easier to be the enabler that foments hate and blame. That's why you see folks out there who focus on bringing down someone else or something else. Chavez did what they brought him in to do: take down the wealthy and industry. Turns out they forgot that bringing others down doesn't bring them up.

Helping people is hard. So make people think you are helping them by hurting others is where it goes. Feed anger and use it.
Yep, those billionaire hedge fund managers would sure be hurt if they had to pay tax at the same rate the middle class does.

And I'm sure the progressives would throw a hissy fit if everyone was taxed at the same level of billionaire hedge fund managers.

See what I mean? You look to lessen someone, which doesn't help those already paying that high tax. Everyone else is miserable, let's make those ones miserable, too. This is progressive idealism. Punish those guys instead of help us.

I tend to think, "If we lowered everyone else's taxes to where those hedge fund guys are then the hedge fund guys have no complaints and everyone else with a paycheck is really helped by it." This is libertarian thought.

Progressive - hurt some without helping most
Libertarian - help most without hurting the others.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,623]

Complaining about the quality of teachers, cops etc. while wanting YOUR taxes reduced is disingenuous.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

kallend

Complaining about the quality of teachers, cops etc. while wanting YOUR taxes reduced is disingenuous.

When did I do that?

Note: Teachers and cops are locally paid. And if we are spending more than any other place in the world and educational achievement is shit, then yeah, I think it's right to complain.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andy9o8 0]

lawrocket

***

Quote

there is still a lot of passionate "Viva la Revolución" populist BS down there.

Seeds like that don't grow in the absence of rich soil within which to find purchase in the first place.

Isn't that what David Duke said about hatin' the blacks? IF there wasn't so much to hate then they wouldn't be hated. Look at the fertile Jew hatin' ground that was set up for time immemorial.

It's far easier to be the enabler that foments hate and blame. That's why you see folks out there who focus on bringing down someone else or something else. Chavez did what they brought him in to do: take down the wealthy and industry. Turns out they forgot that bringing others down doesn't bring them up.

Helping people is hard. So make people think you are helping them by hurting others is where it goes. Feed anger and use it.

What I meant by my brief comment was more along the lines of: revolutionary movements ("seeds") tend to gain traction (and sometimes overthrow the government, other times fail to do so before they're crushed) most often in countries where economic or social/legal conditions are extremely deleterious to the vast majority of the population ("the soil") whose support the revolutionary leaders hope to gain. Examples: Czarist Russia, 1940s China, 1950s Cuba, 1970s Iran, the recent "Arab Spring" countries, etc.

That's why the "Western democracies" really don't have to worry much about being overthrown by the sundry revolutionary movements that, from time to time, either spring up domestically or that infiltrate from abroad: they have a numerically-vast middle class, which is generally more content than not, and generally feels fairly enfranchised in government, law, society and the economy - and in the absence of really extreme provocation, that middle class is unlikely to ally itself with the revolutionaries.