Islam...the religion of peace?

[winsor 187]

normiss

Morris Day and The Time, Jungle Love.
More entertaining and plenty of rock guitar.

I suppose 'Get Over It' by Henley and Frey is apropos to the subject at hand.

[turtlespeed 212]

winsor

***Morris Day and The Time, Jungle Love.
More entertaining and plenty of rock guitar.

I suppose 'Get Over It' by Henley and Frey is apropos to the subject at hand.

Oh, come on, Hozier's "take me to church"

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 622]

King Earl Boogie Band, Plastic Jesus.

[winsor 187]

Hand of the Almighty by John Butler is an all time favorite.

[turtlespeed 212]

winsor

Hand of the Almighty by John Butler is an all time favorite.

Does it make me gay if I like Depech mode's " personal Jesus"?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Coreeece 2]

winsor

***Morris Day and The Time, Jungle Love.
More entertaining and plenty of rock guitar.

I suppose 'Get Over It' by Henley and Frey is apropos to the subject at hand.

I was thinking more along the lines of Suslique by Creedence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J6PFxJXYJs

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[masterblaster72 0]

There's a debate about this subject on YouTube -- definitely worth watching.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

masterblaster72

There's a debate about this subject on YouTube -- definitely worth watching.

i watched this debate a while ago, the fundamental mistake of the approach of the debate is "who represents Islam=that Islam is". there are all sort of people on Earth, you can't make up your mind about religion based on people. its the same as making up your opinion about parents based on their children. they go on and on discussing people, cultures, traditions, people then people again.

if you want to know what Islam is, then you have to take a responsibility on yourself and do a proper research. to understand whether Islam is religion of peace of not you need to understand the Islam itself, not the people. reading Quran in translation is not even nearly enough, you need to know the meaning of the context, the history behind each verse, to whom those verses were addressed etc. so my advise is to first, read historical book (Martin Lings - Muhammad) and read Quran with tafseer that explains various aspects of arabic language + historical background of every surah. the best tafseer in English is made by Bayyinah university, you won't find anything more detailed. its in a podcast form and can be downloaded from their website (start from 1 verse of any surah).

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[christelsabine 1]

Did you read the bible, if yes: which one?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Suslique 0]

christelsabine

Did you read the bible, if yes: which one?

i read Torah, because i studied it in Hasidic lyceum where i was two years of high school.

i never read a new Testament simply because i have no problems with Christianity.

i didn't "study" Torah in dept because i don't have any questions or problems regarding Judaism either.

so my approach is, if you have some questions that are worrying you about Islam, you need to study Islam, not listen to muslims here or anywhere else. people are just people. of course downloading books and podcasts and listening/reading them with open mind is a MUCH more difficult task. its not for everyone

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[masterblaster72 0]

This was my first exposure to Islam as a teenager, since I went to school with many whose parents belonged to the Fellowship. After attending one of his recorded lectures, I left with a very favorable impression of Islam and for a long time I had the idea that sheikh Bawa's words of love and compassion represented Islam.

During this time, I read the entire Quran, which for me offered no new words of wisdom that the bible (which I also had already read by that time) did not offer. Instead I returned numerous times to the fellowship through my high school and college years to hear Bawa's interpretation of the Quran. Though I never adhered to the faith, I was always free to return to the fellowship and was always welcomed.

Over the course of my years living in New York, I met quite a lot of Muslims. None of them was a
Sufi -- and when I shared my experience of attending the mosque in Philadelphia, I often got the swift reaction that Sufism is not real Islam. It didn't take long to realize that Sufis are only a small minority among Muslims today.

I could make this a much longer post, but I won't. Instead, google Sufis and persecution. Consider also what is the penalty for apostasy in wahhabi or salafi Islam. For me, this was a real eye-opener.

IMO ultimately, words do not represent a religion or anything that's part of the current human condition for that matter. In the end, the actions of people define everything. Just like I believe on an individual level that a person's actions define who they are rather than their words.

However, taking words into account, I am genuinely curious to know what the spiritual interpretation of Surah 4:56 is. I went to the Bayyinah website you recommended and found no text version of the book. Is the English interpretation of this verse on quran.com completely misconstrued?

Salaam.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

masterblaster72

This was my first exposure to Islam as a teenager, since I went to school with many whose parents belonged to the Fellowship. After attending one of his recorded lectures, I left with a very favorable impression of Islam and for a long time I had the idea that sheikh Bawa's words of love and compassion represented Islam.

During this time, I read the entire Quran, which for me offered no new words of wisdom that the bible (which I also had already read by that time) did not offer. Instead I returned numerous times to the fellowship through my high school and college years to hear Bawa's interpretation of the Quran. Though I never adhered to the faith, I was always free to return to the fellowship and was always welcomed.

Over the course of my years living in New York, I met quite a lot of Muslims. None of them was a
Sufi -- and when I shared my experience of attending the mosque in Philadelphia, I often got the swift reaction that Sufism is not real Islam. It didn't take long to realize that Sufis are only a small minority among Muslims today.

I could make this a much longer post, but I won't. Instead, google Sufis and persecution. Consider also what is the penalty for apostasy in wahhabi or salafi Islam. For me, this was a real eye-opener.

IMO ultimately, words do not represent a religion or anything that's part of the current human condition for that matter. In the end, the actions of people define everything. Just like I believe on an individual level that a person's actions define who they are rather than their words.

However, taking words into account, I am genuinely curious to know what the spiritual interpretation of Surah 4:56 is. I went to the Bayyinah website you recommended and found no text version of the book. Is the English interpretation of this verse on quran.com completely misconstrued?

Salaam.

wa aleykuma salaam

don't take one ayah out of the whole surah. thats what mass media does, leave it to them:) first 60 ayahs of the surah are dedicated to hypocrites, and there is a description of punishments in hereafter for hypocrites and then later you can find a description of rewards for those who are steadfast on their way.

here i have found notes of a tafseer lecture that is on a bayyinah.tv (its a paid website, that has lots of islamic courses, .com is a free website and they upload podcasts when they are ready, there's no an-nisa there yet unfortunately, but here is shortened transcript).

don't read one ayah, read the whole surah and you'll get the full picture of what it is talking about http://ia701200.us.archive.org/8/items/Linguisticmiracle.comTafsirNotes-Bayyinah.tvnoumanAliKhan/4-Surah-al-nisa-the_women-linguisticmiracle.pdf

( here is the main website for the rest of suras and other info, they take most of the stuff from Bayyinah.com > http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/tafsir )

when it comes to sufis, there are 70+ sects in Islam. i can't say that i know everything about everyone, to be honest i have neither time nor enthusiasm to make research on all of them. sufis are muslims (and are considered to be so by majority of scholars, no matter what the difference of opinions are), whoever thinks otherwise may want to get down from their high horses :)

edited to make links clickable

p.s. translation is always heavily chopped off from the original, unfortunately so tafseer is essential. i think translation by Yusuf Ali is a bit better or not, now that I'm reading it... i don't usually read in English so its hard for me to be objective :/ sorry. bayyinah's translation and tafseer are the best ones so far.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Coreeece 2]

Quote

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

What does this mean? Either stand up, or shut up...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[turtlespeed 212]

Coreeece

Quote

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

What does this mean? Either stand up, or shut up...

It appears to be a metaphor. Possibly that they will perform ministry to the non believers heating their internal desire to succumb to alas will, and every time they break down a barrier they redouble their efforts hoping to guide the individual to the right and righteous path.

What does this mean?

Quote

1 Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "

Ah, but then we will see the argument that this is fro. The Old Testament.

Then, just from the book of Mathew:

Quote

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Then there is this little tid bit that kind argues against the whole New Testament is not the Old Testament thing:

Quote

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Seems to me that both books are filled with metaphors and shouldn't be taken literally.

Or is one book more literal than the other.

Try some critical thinking without letting your emotion from your belief color the logic.

That goes for everyone in any religion.

Side note: why "stand up or shut up"? Are you really that angry?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Suslique 0]

Nope Islam is not a hippie new age religion, nobody us stating this. I sure didn't.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[turtlespeed 212]

Suslique

Nope Islam is not a hippie new age religion, nobody us stating this. I sure didn't.

At what point are you saying nope?

The point that the non believers should be burned over and over again by the faithful?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[masterblaster72 0]

Thank you for the link. I read from the beginning of the chapter to 4:56.

I dunno, perhaps it's because I don't know Arabic or Islam well enough...because even with the background of the chapter to give context I found the commentary to shed little light on what (to me) stand out as rather sadistic words.

Quote

Verse 56:
Asla ; yusli ; isla – to take something and chuck it somewhere.

NaDijat – means uneven, also means something to be burnt and therefore become uneven
i.e. when something gets burnt its shape gets twisted and deformed.

As the fire will eat away their skin they will cease to feel the pain, because even when we
cut our skin once it gets past the skin, there are no more pain/sense receptors, hence Allah
will replace their burnt skin with new one so that the pain and suffering continues and the
dwellers of Hell will get the taste of continuous punishment

Anyhow I believe this all comes down to how a person chooses to interpret, due to their inclinations, their environment, experiences and their nature -- just like anything else. Some take it word for word, literally (ISIS), others interpret in a good way because they are simply good people (sheikh Bawa). Judging from the fact that you are having a dialogue with non-believers, I get the idea you lean more in the direction of sheikh Bawa.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

masterblaster72

Thank you for the link. I read from the beginning of the chapter to 4:56.

I dunno, perhaps it's because I don't know Arabic or Islam well enough...because even with the background of the chapter to give context I found the commentary to shed little light on what (to me) stand out as rather sadistic words.

Quote

Verse 56:
Asla ; yusli ; isla – to take something and chuck it somewhere.

NaDijat – means uneven, also means something to be burnt and therefore become uneven
i.e. when something gets burnt its shape gets twisted and deformed.

As the fire will eat away their skin they will cease to feel the pain, because even when we
cut our skin once it gets past the skin, there are no more pain/sense receptors, hence Allah
will replace their burnt skin with new one so that the pain and suffering continues and the
dwellers of Hell will get the taste of continuous punishment

Anyhow I believe this all comes down to how a person chooses to interpret, due to their inclinations, their environment, experiences and their nature -- just like anything else. Some take it word for word, literally (ISIS), others interpret in a good way because they are simply good people (sheikh Bawa). Judging from the fact that you are having a dialogue with non-believers, I get the idea you lean more in the direction of sheikh Bawa.

Maybe you lost the point along the way, there were descriptions of various hypocrites in the ayahs before 56, those who steal orphans money, those who lie and call themselves representatives of God on Earth, those who harm people by witchcrafts etc and then it is said that they are those who ignore God's verses, and they will be burned in Hell. There is a theme of Hell and Heaven in Quran, and it is about afterlife, so those (hey turtlespeed ) who don't believe in hereafter have nothing to worry about, right?:)

All these doesn't give a card Blanche to psychos like Isis, its not about allowing some crazy person take judgement in his hands, its about hereafter. Yes, there is Hell and Heaven in Islam, yes, those who transgress Gods law (including Muslims) will be punished there unless they regret, ask for Allah's forgiveness and fix their ways. Some people will stay there forever, some will be purified and will go to Heaven.

Now there are Mekkan surahs and Medinan surahs. Mekkan are more strict and list more description of Hell than Medinan. There is a historical background to it. Read that book I recommended you, you'll see why.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

turtlespeed

***Nope Islam is not a hippie new age religion, nobody us stating this. I sure didn't.

At what point are you saying nope?

The point that the non believers should be burned over and over again by the faithful?

What r u talking about??? Its a description of Hell. And Hell is...umm Hell. What do you expect will be there? Counselling courses?

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

You know if religious person becomes aggressive, all kinds of negative and bitter and doesn't mind his business and just arrogantly judges others that only means one thing, they are doing it wrong. In Islam we have only one chance to do right thing, and this life is way too short and is full of distractions. We are praying 5 times a day to protect ourselves from getting addicted to this world, to material stuff. You see everyone seem to focus on what Islam says about disbelievers what it says about apostasy, this that.

There is no problem with disbelievers as long as they are not declaring war, or occupying our land etc when they do that it is a war and a war has its strict rules in Islam. Other than that even pagan tribes lived in the caliphate and were protected by their agreements with Muslims. As long as everyone sticks to their agreements there is no problem.

There is no such a thing as forced conversions, it's all nonsense that has no basis is Islam. Actions are judged only by their intentions by God, so how can anyone be forced to pray, let say, if the intention just cannot be correct one for a prayer if one is forced to do it. Nonsense.

Apostasy was considered the same way a treason is now for modern governments and as far as I know one can get a life sentence for that in certain western countries. Islamic scholars do have debates about this moment as well but it is only valid in Islamic states for muslims anyways so it's not a subject of discussion for you or any other non Muslim living in non-muslim country. And proving apostasy is a very difficult thing to do btw

Not many people are interested to know about good stuff in Islam, are they?:)

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[turtlespeed 212]

Suslique

******Nope Islam is not a hippie new age religion, nobody us stating this. I sure didn't.

At what point are you saying nope?

The point that the non believers should be burned over and over again by the faithful?

What r u talking about??? Its a description of Hell. And Hell is...umm Hell. What do you expect will be there? Counselling courses?

Since you didn't dispute wording at all, I figured it was correct in your mind.

Who, pray tell, is "we" in this excerpt?

Quote

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

Not many people are interested to know about good stuff in Islam, are they?:)

I've seen plenty of good in Islam, as described in my experiences at the Sufi mosque. I have fond memories of the people there, and if you're ever in Philadelphia, I recommend visiting.

Regarding the recurrent theme of hellfire in Surah 4, I've stated this before about Christianity as well: I find the idea of hell to be utterly abhorrent and hateful. Imagine someone roasting in fire forever. How can this possibly reflect a god that has any bit of love? Even the most sadistic of people wouldn't leave someone burning for an eternity, and I readily question any religion that teaches such a concept.

Frankly, I found the Surah 4 read disturbing. For example, 4:34 appears to condone wife-beating, and I can point out a few others that really left me scratching my head. Though you advise I should study Islam, that short read didn't exactly inspire me to go further.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

"We" is the God speaking from himself. Not because there are multiple amounts but because in Arabic both single and plural forms are used. Plural "we" used as a sign of importance, respect and high status.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

The concept of Hell and Heaven is not and earthy one, it is said in Quran that it is something incomparable to your life on Earth, so "burning" will not be in worldly sense of it, but it is an attempt to describe the punishment that will avait those who deserve it. You see the Hell is for those who never regretted what they did, who enjoyed sinning and harming other people. Take rapists, they are promised eternal punishment and why shouldn't they? Take Isis for that matter, they harm physically and they ruin the image of islam for so many people why shouldn't they be punished in Hell if they never regret and stop doing what they are doing?
What about mass murders? They all get prison time here on Earth why would u think they should enjoy eternal serenity in afterlife? Islam makes it perfectly clear that this life is a test, its created for evaluation of ur intentions and actions for afterlife.

There's is no wife beating in surah 4, even hitting with 2 fingers are considered prohibited. That ayah is about married women who basically act like prostitutes, engaging in prohibited in Islam, sexual relationships outside marriage. Even then it is said to be patient, to talk, to give her time etc. She has a right for divorce remember that. Why would anyone cheat and have affairs and not ask for divorce if they are obviously not happy with their husband is beyond my understanding. Hit her gently can be referred to pushing with 1 finger out of desperation, since the situation described in the ayah is not the most pleasant one for a husband. Hitting with 1 finger might also mean that they can't lose their patience and beat them, since beating with 1 finger is practically impossible/its harmless.

You see just because some topics are too messed up doesn't mean they shouldn't be explained and discussed. I can imagine that there was a case like this one that is why the ayah was revealed.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[turtlespeed 212]

Suslique

The concept of Hell and Heaven is not and earthy one, it is said in Quran that it is something incomparable to your life on Earth, so "burning" will not be in worldly sense of it, but it is an attempt to describe the punishment that will avait those who deserve it. You see the Hell is for those who never regretted what they did, who enjoyed sinning and harming other people. Take rapists, they are promised eternal punishment and why shouldn't they? Take Isis for that matter, they harm physically and they ruin the image of islam for so many people why shouldn't they be punished in Hell if they never regret and stop doing what they are doing?
What about mass murders? They all get prison time here on Earth why would u think they should enjoy eternal serenity in afterlife? Islam makes it perfectly clear that this life is a test, its created for evaluation of ur intentions and actions for afterlife.

There's is no wife beating in surah 4, even hitting with 2 fingers are considered prohibited. That ayah is about married women who basically act like prostitutes, engaging in prohibited in Islam, sexual relationships outside marriage. Even then it is said to be patient, to talk, to give her time etc. She has a right for divorce remember that. Why would anyone cheat and have affairs and not ask for divorce if they are obviously not happy with their husband is beyond my understanding. Hit her gently can be referred to pushing with 1 finger out of desperation, since the situation described in the ayah is not the most pleasant one for a husband. Hitting with 1 finger might also mean that they can't lose their patience and beat them, since beating with 1 finger is practically impossible/its harmless.

You see just because some topics are too messed up doesn't mean they shouldn't be explained and discussed. I can imagine that there was a case like this one that is why the ayah was revealed.

That is interesting and informative. But that is why I asked who "we" is instead of telling you to shut up.

I am going to look further into the definition as you describe it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun