Hjeada 0 #26 February 23, 2015 jakeeQuote I guess I'm just amazed that an intelligent man like you can't see what a dumbfuck move it was to retreat out of Iraq when he was warned by people who know far more than he does about military operations. Right... so it was a dumbfuck move to retreat from Iraq under Bush's pre-established timeline, but it wasn't a dumbfuck move for Bush to create that timeline? And on that note, how unbelievably moronic was it for Bush to believe that after invading Iraq there would be no insurgency to deal with at all? Let's take this to a business case...it would be a dumb fuck move to not have a project plan/timeline for a major initiative/project...so developing a timeline is not a dumb fuck thing to do. Now, due a the moving nature of almost every project I've ever worked on, not adjusting the timeline based on a changing scenery would be very dumb....Dudeist Skydiver #0511 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #27 February 23, 2015 Hjeada***Quote I guess I'm just amazed that an intelligent man like you can't see what a dumbfuck move it was to retreat out of Iraq when he was warned by people who know far more than he does about military operations. Right... so it was a dumbfuck move to retreat from Iraq under Bush's pre-established timeline, but it wasn't a dumbfuck move for Bush to create that timeline? And on that note, how unbelievably moronic was it for Bush to believe that after invading Iraq there would be no insurgency to deal with at all? Let's take this to a business case...it would be a dumb fuck move to not have a project plan/timeline for a major initiative/project...so developing a timeline is not a dumb fuck thing to do. Now, due a the moving nature of almost every project I've ever worked on, not adjusting the timeline based on a changing scenery would be very dumb.... Yep. But you cannot change the mind of the faithful. Just like Ron and some others have unwavering faith in God, these others have faith in their diety, Obama.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #28 February 23, 2015 QuoteLet's take this to a business case...it would be a dumb fuck move to not have a project plan/timeline for a major initiative/project...so developing a timeline is not a dumb fuck thing to do. OK, good. So you agree that Bush was a dumb fuck for not having a project plan to deal with a long term Iraqi insurgency. In the current case though, the SOFA was not just a plan or a timeline, it was a binding agreement between two nations. It was not simply Obama's call to keep going - without the agreement of the democratically elected government of Iraq ignoring the Bush SOFA would mean the US would have returned to being a hostile occupying force.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #29 February 23, 2015 Quote Yep. But you cannot change the mind of the faithful. Just like Ron and some others have unwavering faith in God, these others have faith in their diety, Obama. It's OK Turtle, we get it. Starting war = good, leaving war = bad. No exceptionsDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hjeada 0 #30 February 23, 2015 jakeeQuoteLet's take this to a business case...it would be a dumb fuck move to not have a project plan/timeline for a major initiative/project...so developing a timeline is not a dumb fuck thing to do. OK, good. So you agree that Bush was a dumb fuck for not having a project plan to deal with a long term Iraqi insurgency. Please don't put words in my mouth, or make any assumptions as to what I think...and for the record, you are spinning your own words now... jakee"Right... so it was a dumbfuck move to retreat from Iraq under Bush's pre-established timeline, but it wasn't a dumbfuck move for Bush to create that timeline?" You establish above that Bush created a timeline (i.e. project plan), but then say it was a dumb fuck move to not have a plan...so just so I have it right, you think it's a dumb fuck move to have a pre-established timeline (damn Bush is a dumb fuck), and in the next breath say Bush is a dumb fuck for not having a plan...got it, super logic used there.Dudeist Skydiver #0511 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #31 February 23, 2015 jakee Quote Yep. But you cannot change the mind of the faithful. Just like Ron and some others have unwavering faith in God, these others have faith in their diety, Obama. It's OK Turtle, we get it. Starting war = good, leaving war = bad. No exceptions Where in your black and white world does going back into war become acceptable?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #32 February 23, 2015 Remember this? Another prediction comes true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #33 February 23, 2015 QuotePlease don't put words in my mouth, or make any assumptions as to what I think It's the logical extension... QuoteYou establish above that Bush created a timeline (i.e. project plan), but then say it was a dumb fuck move to not have a plan Ah, no. I see you're battling a short memory. When Bush invaded Iraq his administration had no plan for a long term occupation or for dealing with a long term insurgency. It is on the record that they simply assumed there wouldn't be a backlash, or that if there was it would be dealt with in months. That's why you think Bush was a dumb fuck. Quotesuper logic used there. I know, thank you. But you've forgotten to praise my evaluation of the binding nature of the SOFA.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #34 February 23, 2015 turtlespeed *** Quote Yep. But you cannot change the mind of the faithful. Just like Ron and some others have unwavering faith in God, these others have faith in their diety, Obama. It's OK Turtle, we get it. Starting war = good, leaving war = bad. No exceptions Where in your black and white world does going back into war become acceptable? It's not mine...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #35 February 23, 2015 Quote It's not mine... Just why were the Brits there? I mean did our intelligence reports convince ya'll....or did your intelligence get it wrong to?Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #36 February 23, 2015 mirage62Quote It's not mine... Just why were the Brits there? I mean did our intelligence reports convince ya'll....or did your intelligence get it wrong to? Partly the second one* but mostly just a power play. Tony Blair wanted the UK to have a better seat at the big boys table and decided that being cheerleader number one was the best way of doing that. * We actually exported some woefully poor intelligence back over the pond to help convince your guys.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #37 February 23, 2015 jakee***Quote It's not mine... Just why were the Brits there? I mean did our intelligence reports convince ya'll....or did your intelligence get it wrong to? Partly the second one* but mostly just a power play. Tony Blair wanted the UK to have a better seat at the big boys table and decided that being cheerleader number one was the best way of doing that. * We actually exported some woefully poor intelligence back over the pond to help convince your guys. Ah, so it's not Bush's fault. It's the congress' fault, they must have been in cahoots with Blair.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hjeada 0 #38 February 23, 2015 jakeeIt's the logical extension... It wasn't the logical extension, the logical extension of having a plan that didn't account for a situation that wasn't identified at the inception of the plan would be to alter the plan, which Obama simply didn't do. Nope, instead he disregarded the advice of many and pulled us out anyway...if you are looking for dumb fuck actions, there it is. jakeeAh, no. I see you're battling a short memory. When Bush invaded Iraq his administration had no plan for a long term occupation or for dealing with a long term insurgency. It is on the record that they simply assumed there wouldn't be a backlash, or that if there was it would be dealt with in months. Failure to amend a plan to adapt to a changing scenery, would, at best, get you in some very sticky situations in the private sector, and at worst, get you fired. A plan, as with any major undertaking, simply can't address every situation, and building one for every situation is an exercise in futility. You are trying to blame the plan maker (for having a plan, but not having a plan...still not sure how that logic works) instead of the person who made the decision given the current set of data. I find significantly more fault with the person who makes a erroneous decision given current data than the person who made a plan that doesn't account for every scenario. jakeeThat's why you think Bush was a dumb fuck. There you go again, putting words into others mouths...and no, this isn't why I think Bush is a dumb fuck, thanks, but try again.Dudeist Skydiver #0511 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #39 February 23, 2015 turtlespeedAh, so it's not Bush's fault. For not creating a contingency plan for an extended insurgency? Yes, it is. And for invading in the first place? Yes, it is. He and his administration created the narrative that everyone else followed.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #40 February 23, 2015 Quote***It's the logical extension...It wasn't the logical extension, the logical extension of having a plan that didn't account for a situation that wasn't identified at the inception of the plan would be to alter the plan, which Obama simply didn't do. Nope, instead he disregarded the advice of many and pulled us out anyway...if you are looking for dumb fuck actions, there it is. You're confused about which situation I'm talking about. The logical extension of your remarks about planning is that you should blame Bush for not having any plans in place pre-invasion to deal with a long term post-invasion insurgency. Get it yet? And as for Obama, you have yet to answer or even acknowledge my remarks about the legal nature of the Bush SOFA. You make it sound like it was simply an in-house timetable so that the US military could get their logistics in order. In reality it was a bilateral treaty between two nation states. It looks bad for you when you pretend not to notice that. QuoteA plan, as with any major undertaking, simply can't address every situation, and building one for every situation is an exercise in futility. You don't see a problem with invading a middle eastern country and not planning for an Islamic fundamentalist insurgency? That's like performing major surgery and not planning for the possibility of infection. It's like designing an ocean liner and not planning for the possibility of waves. QuoteThere you go again, putting words into others mouths...and no, this isn't why I think Bush is a dumb fuck, thanks, but try again. Then you must be blinded by partisanship, because everything else you had said suggests that is exactly why you should think Bush is a dumb fuck.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #41 February 23, 2015 >And on that note, how unbelievably moronic was it for Bush to believe that >after invading Iraq there would be no insurgency to deal with at all? What we should do is create a strong secular government in Iraq that can resist the Islamic extremists. Perhaps headed by a strong non-religious leader who can galvanize the country to take action against said extremists and bring an end to the fighting. We could support him with military intelligence and weapons! He could even take action against our other enemies, enemies like Iran. That way we wouldn't have to fight them directly, and Iran would be distracted from their constant anti-Western attacks. And when he's in power, we could send Donald Rumsfeld over to shake his hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #42 February 23, 2015 jakee Quote I guess I'm just amazed that an intelligent man like you can't see what a dumbfuck move it was to retreat out of Iraq when he was warned by people who know far more than he does about military operations. Right... so it was a dumbfuck move to retreat from Iraq under Bush's pre-established timeline, but it wasn't a dumbfuck move for Bush to create that timeline? And on that note, how unbelievably moronic was it for Bush to believe that after invading Iraq there would be no insurgency to deal with at all? Almost everything about Bush's war was a fuckup, from the pretext and the cost estimate ($50-60B , wrong by a factor of 50) to the Bremer years and destroying the Iraqi military, to the selection of al Maliki, Abu Ghraib, to the SOFA...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #43 February 23, 2015 kallend *** Quote I guess I'm just amazed that an intelligent man like you can't see what a dumbfuck move it was to retreat out of Iraq when he was warned by people who know far more than he does about military operations. Right... so it was a dumbfuck move to retreat from Iraq under Bush's pre-established timeline, but it wasn't a dumbfuck move for Bush to create that timeline? And on that note, how unbelievably moronic was it for Bush to believe that after invading Iraq there would be no insurgency to deal with at all? Almost everything about Bush's war was a fuckup, from the pretext and the cost estimate ($50-60B , wrong by a factor of 50) to the Bremer years and destroying the Iraqi military, to the selection of al Maliki, Abu Ghraib, to the SOFA... And they weren't even competent enough to steal the oil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #44 February 23, 2015 So..along comes Larry, Curly & Moe to tell us how bad Bush's decisions were. Anything on your messiah Barry? Anyone? Barry?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #45 February 23, 2015 Sure - expansion of the Afghan war into Pakistan, wanton use of drone strikes, lack of promised transparency in any area, but withdrawal from Iraq... not really. a) It was the hand he was dealt. b) You've got to leave sometime. There is no length of time that you can stay in Iraq, and nothing that you can do so that when you leave things will be ok. And no matter how many times you go back in, every time you leave again things will go to hell behind you. That is the Iraq we have spent the last dozen years creating.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #46 February 24, 2015 QuoteYou've got to leave sometime. There is no length of time that you can stay in Iraq, and nothing that you can do so that when you leave things will be ok. And no matter how many times you go back in, every time you leave again things will go to hell behind you. That is the Iraq we have spent the last dozen years creating. So obama is a fucktard warmonger for going back in your saying then got it. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymiles 3 #47 February 24, 2015 airdvrSo..along comes Larry, Curly & Moe to tell us how bad Bush's decisions were. Anything on your messiah Barry? Anyone? Barry? Its understandable that you are desperate to find someone else to blame. I know if I had voted for someone who's chain of epic blunders lead to the collapse of a country, the death of 5000 US troops and the rise of ISIS in Iraq, I too would want to blame everyone else. As a candidate, Bush was clearly a person of limited ability, but you all wanted someone you could "drink a beer with". Well, you got your wish and you now have the blood of 5000 dead US troops on your hands. Something to be proud of I suppose? Elections have consequences. Perhaps you've figured that out by now. So what do we do now? Personally, I would like to see everyone of those ISIS bastards dead, but I'm not about to enlist. Two things are clear however, 1) there are no good options, and 2) you're going to blame Obama no matter what he does because you can never admit you were as wrong as Bush was. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #48 February 24, 2015 QuoteSince we are playing this game. Remember this...Cheney '94: Invading Baghdad Would Create Quagmire In the particular time, circumstances and established objectives of the first Gulf War, Cheney's words were well within the parameters of the political objectives. Much different set of circumstances after 2001. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymiles 3 #49 February 24, 2015 BoomerdogQuoteSince we are playing this game. Remember this...Cheney '94: Invading Baghdad Would Create Quagmire In the particular time, circumstances and established objectives of the first Gulf War, Cheney's words were well within the parameters of the political objectives. Much different set of circumstances after 2001. Cheney was not talking about circumstances he was talking about the outcome of an invasion. Are there different types of invasions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #50 February 24, 2015 BoomerdogQuoteSince we are playing this game. Remember this...Cheney '94: Invading Baghdad Would Create Quagmire In the particular time, circumstances and established objectives of the first Gulf War, Cheney's words were well within the parameters of the political objectives. Much different set of circumstances after 2001. That would be very funny, were the outcome not so tragic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
