Federal civil rights charges unlikely against police officer in Ferguson shooting

[Anvilbrother 0]

Like I said you can keep your head in the sand all you want and get drunk off the koolaid, but I've been robbed twice, had my work vehicle shot, my fence shot, and had to run and hide from a riot. Ive been pulled over a dozen times and I've never been framed, tazed or shot, no has anyone I have ever met. That's my real fucking world experiences and I live in a rural town outside of Baton Rouge with about 20k people.. You don't have to be worried about cops there are way worse shit that's gonna get you.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[wolfriverjoe 1,369]

kelpdiver

***
And BTW, Kelpdiver brought up Rodney King.
Believe it or not, that wasn't a "police brutality" situation. The cops didn't just beat on him for the hell of it. King kept trying to get up. The first jury that acquitted the cops got it right (IMHO).

Not to me.

The use of force was justified, but what we saw was well in excess. As I recall at the time, the video prompted many departments to consider buying clear plastic batons that wouldn't show on video as well.

Another result was the concept of "force continium" and "escalation of force." Those basically mean that if the stick doesn't work, don't keep using the stick, escalate to the next level (taser or gun).

In today's environment, if King kept trying to get up after repeated baton strikes, they would just shoot him.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

In today's environment, if King kept trying to get up after repeated baton strikes, they would just shoot him

What?! No...
Command presence...then
Verbal commands....then
Spray...then
Baton...then
Taser.....then
If none of that works and your presented with potential lethal threat, the use of deadly force is authroized.

You don't have to start at command presence, you meet force with force. If a guy opens a door and starts swinging you don't have to stand tall, then tell him to stop, then spray him....you can deploy the baton and stun him in the leg or gut right off. That is/was the EBRP protocol.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kelpdiver 2]

Anvilbrother

Like I said you can keep your head in the sand all you want

Irony alert. Also thanks for not addressing a single aspect of my rebuttal. I can tell you'd rather keep the arguments emotional rather than factual.

Quote

That's my real fucking world experiences and I live in a rural town outside of Baton Rouge with about 20k people.. You don't have to be worried about cops there are way worse shit that's gonna get you.

Maybe that experience isn't very meaningful in understanding the rest of the country? Though 5 major incidents - somehow I've had none, myself.

[wolfriverjoe 1,369]

Anvilbrother

Quote

In today's environment, if King kept trying to get up after repeated baton strikes, they would just shoot him

What?! No...
Command presence...then
Verbal commands....then
Spray...then
Baton...then
Taser.....then
If none of that works and your presented with potential lethal threat, the use of deadly force is authroized.

You don't have to start at command presence, you meet force with force. If a guy opens a door and starts swinging you don't have to stand tall, then tell him to stop, then spray him....you can deploy the baton and stun him in the leg or gut right off. That is/was the EBRP protocol.

What do you mean "No"?

Current force continuum would have ended up with King shot.

They had already attempted Tasering. It failed. He kept taunting and approaching them (taunting isn't a crime per se, but it was a solid indicator that he wasn't going to comply).

The baton strikes weren't working.
What should they have done next?

An interesting account of the King case & trial:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/lapd/lapdaccount.html

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[regulator 0]

The thing is...police forces are comprised of human beings. A vast majority of these human beings are at least receptive about their role in the community and try doing their jobs. Sure there's a cross section of assholes...just like you would find in any other job and there are also a section of people who are just having a bad day and return to non-asshole status after their bad day has expired. Yes I'm sure there are some that are evil and should be removed for every experience I've had with police...meaning I get pulled over...I wait until they walk up to my car window...I tell them I wasnt going to move until they could see my actions...I politely give him my drivers license...then CHL. I then instruct the officer I am going to reach for my glove box. I am always polite and even when I carry my sidearm [which is in a locked box in my car] I have never had any bad experiences in the past 20 years. Yes I have had bad experiences before this time but I was also young and out at 4 am. I don't get in situations like that anymore and subsequently the rate of running into asshole cops has also declined significantly as well. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out. If you are abiding by the law...and polite to the LEO the likelihood of you running into an asshole cop should be significantly diminished.

[Anvilbrother 0]

You said...

Quote

In today's environment, if King kept trying to get up after repeated baton strikes, they would just shoot him.

You clearly left out the taser then gun part.....

Then you say

Quote

They had already attempted Tasering. It failed. He kept taunting and approaching them (taunting isn't a crime per se, but it was a solid indicator that he wasn't going to comply).

Which is completely different is why I brought up the escalation of force chart.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rushmc 18]

normiss

While I'm not disagreeing, the perception by those communities is a large part of the problem.
Just like the cops, they see each other as the enemy.

I see ohters need to make excuses for bad behavior

I guess it is ok as long as society is blamed, and not the perp

You do no one any favors by saying, you did something bad but I understand why you did it"

But this is where libeals would have us go today

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 643]

Ignoring the history of how they've been treated is easy for some I guess.

[rushmc 18]

normiss

Ignoring the history of how they've been treated is easy for some I guess.

So, because of what you call history, you would throw someone under the bridge to help calm your sensitivities
In this case a cop

IMO, this is worse than what you worry about

Keeps making excuses for these that do these things

Help a whole bunch huh

the race industry will keep this going no matter what
You buy into the bs they spew

They spew it becasue is gets the like of Sharpon and others to the table of power that is the Democrat party

Follow the money and power

What is being pushed here does not help this community and any way. In fact it hurts them
Sharpton, Jackson and the Democrats know this but they dont care
It is a voting issue and a money maker for them

You just go along for the ride

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

The cops killed 300, per you. (Even though no one actually knows the correct number - it was at least that 300)

Estimates point from 300-400. There was even a researcher who searched all internet sources for anything related to cops, shootings, and deaths, to see what the unreported number was and it was pretty close to this estimate. Also that 300 number wasn't me it was provided TO us by Kallend from wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_2013

Quote

Not 20. You don't get to filter it down to the ones that didn't lead to a prosecution, particularly when LEOs don't get the same scrutiny that one George Zimmerman got (and we spent thousands of posts discussing, for this SINGLE event).

Im sorry your right it was LOWER more like 10 people unjustifiably killed by a cop. The rest were unarguably justified because the person was shooting at cops, shooting at others, running cops over with cars etc. The ones that were kept were the ones that had not gone to court, did not have enough evidence to say one way or the other, or the ones already convicted...

Quote

Ok according to your link 313 were shot in 2013. I read through and found 205 that were clearly justifiable. The person either shot at police, would not put a weapon down, charged police or hostage with a knife, or was attempting vehicular homicide on the police at the time of being shot, etc.

4 people were killed and it was found that the officer did comit a crime or it was accidental like a bean bag, or taser incident. One officer was charged with manslaughter, one with voluntary manslaughter, and one for wrongful death. One that I remember that bothered me was the kid killed by the cop while holding and pointing an airsoft replica of an ak47. Still the kid did point what appeared to be a weapon at police.

The other 104 were written with minimal details like "officers responded to a reported fight where ____ was shot.", or were still under investigation.

Lets go ahead and play devils advocate and say that along with the 4 that were charged we will include the 95% justifiable killings from the smith report. Making that 9.2, round it up for good measure making that 10 people shot and killed unjustifiably by cops in 2013. You good with that estimation for further discussion?

Quote

If you want to debate this seriously, cut out this sort of nonsense already.

I will say the same thing to you, you even later say that im using emotion instead of facts. Thats you my friend, ive posted the facts, and my own experiences....Your the one running around like the sky is falling despite all the data that shows you have alot more other shit to worry about and focus your energy on than cops.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,153]

Quote

So, because of what you call history, you would throw someone under the bridge to help calm your sensitivities
In this case a cop

I won't speak for him, but I don't think that is what he is saying.

Even if the cop did nothing wrong, it would make sense to recognize there is a serious issue plaguing that community. Just saying, the cop did nothing wrong, therefor there is no issue at all, is the wrong thing to do.

And just talking about "race industry", "race baiters', etc. in response to this is about as helpful as those who claim racists whenever anybody says anything negative about Obama. Actually, it is about the same level of maturity.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

Quote

So, because of what you call history, you would throw someone under the bridge to help calm your sensitivities
In this case a cop

I won't speak for him, but I don't think that is what he is saying.

Even if the cop did nothing wrong, it would make sense to recognize there is a serious issue plaguing that community. Just saying, the cop did nothing wrong, therefor there is no issue at all, is the wrong thing to do.

And just talking about "race industry", "race baiters', etc. in response to this is about as helpful as those who claim racists whenever anybody says anything negative about Obama. Actually, it is about the same level of maturity.

the race industry created this issue you claim to be so concerned about
They (the race baitors) fan emotion to create situtations that then turn into a Ferguson
This issue has nothing to do with Obama except when the dumb sob opens his mouth and says things like "the police acted stupidly" but I have no idea why you want to inject Obama into this except maybe you are desperaged

So the maturity issue seems to be yours here
Becasue ignoring what those idiots bring to this serves only to empower them so they can once again make excused for bad behaivior

Nicely done BTW

Oh, and it is this cop you and yours would hang in effigy to TRY and make an akward point

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Just saying, the cop did nothing wrong, therefor there is no issue at all, is the wrong thing to do.

Yes in this situation its exactly what you do. Then you find an actual case of police abuse, shooting, etc, and you fire up your media machine on them. Dont start your political war machine on this cop once he is proven innocent by the grand jury, and the fed investigation...

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,153]

Anvilbrother

Quote

Just saying, the cop did nothing wrong, therefor there is no issue at all, is the wrong thing to do.

Yes in this situation its exactly what you do. Then you find an actual case of police abuse, shooting, etc, and you fire up your media machine on them. Dont start your political war machine on this cop once he is proven innocent by the grand jury, and the fed investigation...

You and Rush are the only ones talking about the cop and something being done to him. if he did nothing wrong, perfect. Get him back to work.

However, I think that what transpired shows there are some underlying issues that should get worked on. If you don't, this will just happen again.

Or you can both stick your heads in the sand and believe this only happene because of "race baiters" and "race industry".

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

However, I think that what transpired shows there are some underlying issues that should get worked on. If you don't, this will just happen again.

Which issue are you talking about? Im only talking about the cop because that is what this thread is about. If the cop is found to be justified with the grand jury, and the civil rights investigation by the feds then there isnt an incident to talk about in regards to the cop. In that case the actions of the person shot is the issues on the table at that point.


....If your trying to trap someone into some comment your gonna need to be more specific. The shooting incident, or the riots, or the police response to the riots, or the cop that had the gun pointed at the crowd, or the fed response to the riot, or violent outbursts towards cops by blacks, or what?.....

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

***

Quote

Just saying, the cop did nothing wrong, therefor there is no issue at all, is the wrong thing to do.

Yes in this situation its exactly what you do. Then you find an actual case of police abuse, shooting, etc, and you fire up your media machine on them. Dont start your political war machine on this cop once he is proven innocent by the grand jury, and the fed investigation...

You and Rush are the only ones talking about the cop and something being done to him. if he did nothing wrong, perfect. Get him back to work.

However, I think that what transpired shows there are some underlying issues that should get worked on. If you don't, this will just happen again.

Or you can both stick your heads in the sand and believe this only happene because of "race baiters" and "race industry".

No, I am talking about those who, like you , wisht to turn what happened in Ferguson into something it is not
You and the race baiters that is

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[regulator 0]

SkyDekker

***

Quote

Just saying, the cop did nothing wrong, therefor there is no issue at all, is the wrong thing to do.

Yes in this situation its exactly what you do. Then you find an actual case of police abuse, shooting, etc, and you fire up your media machine on them. Dont start your political war machine on this cop once he is proven innocent by the grand jury, and the fed investigation...

You and Rush are the only ones talking about the cop and something being done to him. if he did nothing wrong, perfect. Get him back to work.

However, I think that what transpired shows there are some underlying issues that should get worked on. If you don't, this will just happen again.

Or you can both stick your heads in the sand and believe this only happene because of "race baiters" and "race industry".

You and I both know that man can never return to police work in the state of Missouri much less Ferguson.

[kelpdiver 2]

Anvilbrother

Which issue are you talking about? Im only talking about the cop because that is what this thread is about. If the cop is found to be justified with the grand jury, and the civil rights investigation by the feds then there isnt an incident to talk about in regards to the cop. In that case the actions of the person shot is the issues on the table at that point.

It's highly unlikely the grand jury will return a finding that the action was justified. Their job is to determine if there is sufficient evidence to charge the shooter with a crime.

[kelpdiver 2]

Anvilbrother

The other 104 were written with minimal details like "officers responded to a reported fight where ____ was shot.", or were still under investigation.

Lets go ahead and play devils advocate and say that along with the 4 that were charged we will include the 95% justifiable killings from the smith report. Making that 9.2, round it up for good measure making that 10 people shot and killed unjustifiably by cops in 2013. You good with that estimation for further discussion?

Uh, no. You can't take the rate from the straightforward cases and just apply it to the less clear cases. These aren't randomly distributed sets.

It looks highly improbable that we will ever have sufficient evidence to make a definitive decision re the Ferguson shooting. Or any other case where one lives, the other dies, and no video/audio evidence exists.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Uh, no. You can't take the rate from the straightforward cases and just apply it to the less clear cases. These aren't randomly distributed sets.

Uh...That number wasn't applied like that from thin air, do you own research done by a guy named Smith. He found that more than 95 percent of all police involved shootings were ruled administratively and legally justified no matter who would have investigated it.

That number was applied to the 104 cases that were not CLEAR cut and dry justifiable to lower the error rate. You then take that 104 and apply the 95% rate from the smith report and end up with 9.2 or 10 people unjustifiably shot. Fuck if you want to disregard the factual research and make it 20 people murdered by cops, thats still not some out of control lets disregard everything else wrong in the world and focus on that rate.... Im not gonna sit here and rehash that old argument, go and look it up for yourself its in the multi-dozen thread about the Brown shooting its all laid out there.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[airdvr 200]

SkyDekker

However, I think that what transpired shows there are some underlying issues that should get worked on. If you don't, this will just happen again.

There sure are underlying issues in Ferguson. How about the residents get actively involved in the community? How about they run for office and take some control? If only we paid the women to have more kids...

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kelpdiver 2]

Anvilbrother

Uh...That number wasn't applied like that from thin air, do you own research done by a guy named Smith. He found that more than 95 percent of all police involved shootings were ruled administratively and legally justified no matter who would have investigated it.

That number was applied to the 104 cases that were not CLEAR cut and dry justifiable to lower the error rate. You then take that 104 and apply the 95% rate from the smith report and end up with 9.2 or 10 people unjustifiably shot. Fuck if you want to disregard the factual research and make it 20 people murdered by cops, thats still not some out of control lets disregard everything else wrong in the world and focus on that rate....

Again, probability works great for random events, but far less effective/accurate when it's not.

I'd point out Joe's post #23 - this goes well beyond deaths - but I'd rather stick to this notion that 20 state sponsored killings a year isn't a big deal. Are you fucking kidding me? LEOs are the only people out there that don't get jailed by default in a fatal shooting, and if they're suspended from work, it's with pay. In a he said, he said situation, the word of the LEO is deemed far more credible. So every time one murders a citizen it shakes the foundation.

For those who said the welfare queens of Ferguson should improve the communities by getting involved - wtf would they get closer to an organization they believe would rather shoot and beat them? This is the cost of these events - there has been so much history of discriminatory treatment (be it profiling or outright racism) that the community doesn't give any benefit of the doubt. You can say they're wrong, but there's an awful of amount of data - recent data - that supports their suspicions.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Are you fucking kidding me?

No im not... cops are human.....out of 600,000 officers across the us your bound to get this kind of data.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,153]

airdvr

***However, I think that what transpired shows there are some underlying issues that should get worked on. If you don't, this will just happen again.

There sure are underlying issues in Ferguson. How about the residents get actively involved in the community? How about they run for office and take some control? If only we paid the women to have more kids...

Not sure what you mean by your last sentence, but I agree with the first part. Encouraging and getting the residents much more involved would be an excellent idea.