EPA gone wild!

[masterrig 1]

Amazon

*********True story.


Chuck

I would think with the widespread drought conditions across so much of the country.... there will be even more water rights fights a comin.

I believe you're right! The last moisture we've had was March 16. We got 3-1/2 inches. Before that we got 1/2 inch of rain in late September. Since the snow in March... nothin'! Lakes here in Texas are several lakes are several feet low. That's just Texas. Other western states are in similar shape. Meanwhile, water wells are dryin' up. Water is becoming a scarce commodity. 'Wars' have been waged over water. I'd hate to see history repeat itself.


Chuck

The Seattle Area set an all time amount of rain last month at almost 10"
Here at my place in the foothills not far from where the monster landslide took out a whole community... its far higher. We had a windstorm back in mid Feb that blew the clear vinyl top off my Costco 10x20'Tent greenhouse and that let the rain accumulate in the 55 gallon aquarium I had in there. I had cleaned it out last fall and it was completely dry. With that month of rain... it completely filled the 2'deep tank to overflowing.
No drought here this year... and no deposits with oil or gas for them to frack and destroy the groundwater either.

If, you're tired of all that moisture, could you maybe send some our way? Speaking of fracking, West Texas is in the middle of another 'boom'!


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

wmw999

Quote

Lakes here in Texas are several lakes are several feet low.

Lake Travis is over 50 feet low. Here's a site that shows the levels of over 200 lakes across the country.

Some of these are transient levels. But where people depend on them, either for irrigation or drinking, some of the levels are scary.

Wendy P.

You got that right... it is scary! Some of those big boats on Lake Travis are on high ground. Towns in West Texas are on water restrictions. Just plain ugly!


Chuck

[Amazon 7]

masterrig

***

Quote

Lakes here in Texas are several lakes are several feet low.

Lake Travis is over 50 feet low. Here's a site that shows the levels of over 200 lakes across the country.

Some of these are transient levels. But where people depend on them, either for irrigation or drinking, some of the levels are scary.

Wendy P.

You got that right... it is scary! Some of those big boats on Lake Travis are on high ground. Towns in West Texas are on water restrictions. Just plain ugly!


Chuck

I am sure the industry will have plenty of water to frack... personally I would love to see all of the people getting rich off that process drink, and cook and bathe in nothing but "produced water"

[masterrig 1]

Amazon

******

Quote

Lakes here in Texas are several lakes are several feet low.

Lake Travis is over 50 feet low. Here's a site that shows the levels of over 200 lakes across the country.

Some of these are transient levels. But where people depend on them, either for irrigation or drinking, some of the levels are scary.

Wendy P.

You got that right... it is scary! Some of those big boats on Lake Travis are on high ground. Towns in West Texas are on water restrictions. Just plain ugly!


Chuck

I am sure the industry will have plenty of water to frack... personally I would love to see all of the people getting rich off that process drink, and cook and bathe in nothing but "produced water"

Oh, hell yeah! They're not gonna hurt any.


Chuck

[billvon 2,400]

>From the pictures I've seen of the man's tank, I could not see where that stream
>feeds that tank. He probably pumped water from the stream which is what others
>along the way do for the same purpose or irrigation.

Agreed that if that's what he did then what the EPA did is very much an overreaction.

But from his own words it sounds like he actually did dam it:

============
Johnson describes the pond-making process like this: He dug a hole, lined the pond with large rocks and put a drain at the bottom. While he constructed the pond, the water flowed through the drain.

“It never stopped flowing,” he said.

When he was done building the pond, he closed the valve of the drain. Now the water flows out of the pond like a spillway, he said.
=============

In other words, he built a dam, diverted the creek through a drain for a while, then closed the drain and let the dam collect the water. Once it got high enough it flowed through the new spillway back to the original streambed.

[masterrig 1]

billvon

>From the pictures I've seen of the man's tank, I could not see where that stream
>feeds that tank. He probably pumped water from the stream which is what others
>along the way do for the same purpose or irrigation.

Agreed that if that's what he did then what the EPA did is very much an overreaction.

But from his own words it sounds like he actually did dam it:

============
Johnson describes the pond-making process like this: He dug a hole, lined the pond with large rocks and put a drain at the bottom. While he constructed the pond, the water flowed through the drain.

“It never stopped flowing,” he said.

When he was done building the pond, he closed the valve of the drain. Now the water flows out of the pond like a spillway, he said.
=============

In other words, he built a dam, diverted the creek through a drain for a while, then closed the drain and let the dam collect the water. Once it got high enough it flowed through the new spillway back to the original streambed.

I don't see a problem with that. When it rains hard enough and reaches the spill way, the excess water goes into the stream. Great idea! I can't see where that would jeopardize the stream any. Seems to me that he was keeping that in mind. Also, he went through all the process with the State requirements. Bottom line... I think the EPA is over-reacting.


Chuck

[billvon 2,400]

>I don't see a problem with that. When it rains hard enough and reaches the spill
>way, the excess water goes into the stream.

Right. And when it doesn't rain hard enough, no water for the downstream users. And if the dam ever gives way, well . . . better hope they built on high ground.

Using water from a stream, to me, isn't that big a deal. Damming a stream is, for several reasons. Not to say it can't be done, but you do have to 'play by the rules' if you might put people downstream at risk.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Don't forget these are the same people who sent Walter Peck round to shut down the containment unit at the fire station - that worked out real well.

[BillyVance 34]

mr2mk1g

Don't forget these are the same people who sent Walter Peck round to shut down the containment unit at the fire station - that worked out real well.

[mouthing]BOOM[/mouthing]

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[masterrig 1]

billvon

>I don't see a problem with that. When it rains hard enough and reaches the spill
>way, the excess water goes into the stream.

Right. And when it doesn't rain hard enough, no water for the downstream users. And if the dam ever gives way, well . . . better hope they built on high ground.

Using water from a stream, to me, isn't that big a deal. Damming a stream is, for several reasons. Not to say it can't be done, but you do have to 'play by the rules' if you might put people downstream at risk.

For one thing, that tank isn't big enough to cause a problem. He didn't leave the stream dammed up. That stream isn't that big, either! The guy followed the requirements of the State of Wyoming. Everything in regard to that stream is just like it was before he built that tank. The EPA has gone too far. Much like other radical groups. The EPA is not using good common sense. Again, some desk jockey with a little power.


Chuck

[quade 3]

Quote

The EPA has gone too far. Much like other radical groups.

Oh , please.

If people think the EPA is a "radical group" they have truly been brainwashed by the right-wing media.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[BillyVance 34]

quade

Quote

The EPA has gone too far. Much like other radical groups.

Oh , please.

If people think the EPA is a "radical group" they have truly been brainwashed by the right-wing media.

All govt groups have jack booted thugs that over step the boundaries of common sense.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[wmw999 2,123]

Quote

All govt groups have jack booted thugs morons that over step the boundaries of common sense.

Unfortunately, morons with some power can become jack booted thugs. True in any organization.

Consider police who act that way, military who act that way, the office manager who acts that way, the teacher who acts that way, the parent who acts that way, the bully who acts that way, the CEO in a company town who acts that way, the political donor who acts that way. When you're in thrall to them, either legally or financially, then you're screwed.

Sometimes we call it "survival of the fittest."

We tend to glorify power; that makes some of these morons decide that the way to show that they're cool and powerful is to throw themselves around.

Gummint gives them a bigger voice.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Amazon 7]

BillyVance

***

Quote

The EPA has gone too far. Much like other radical groups.

Oh , please.

If people think the EPA is a "radical group" they have truly been brainwashed by the right-wing media.

All govt groups have jack booted thugs that over step the boundaries of common sense.


OOOPS so much for those "Thank you for your Service" homilies...

[quade 3]

BillyVance

***

Quote

The EPA has gone too far. Much like other radical groups.

Oh , please.
If people think the EPA is a "radical group" they have truly been brainwashed by the right-wing media.

All govt groups have jack booted thugs that over step the boundaries of common sense.

All government groups have opposing groups of whackos (sometimes carrying guns for extra bravado) who will show up to protest just about anything.

So, yes, it's prudent for the government to also show up armed when confronting a dude who is in arrears in his taxes by a million dollars.

I can almost assure you the first contact and option by the government in this case was not to show up armed. They've been sending letters for 20 years.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[masterrig 1]

quade

Quote

The EPA has gone too far. Much like other radical groups.

Oh , please.

If people think the EPA is a "radical group" they have truly been brainwashed by the right-wing media.

I don't hold with any 'party' but c'mon now, the EPA, BLM, BIA and other groups do come-up with some radical, hair-brained ideas and they do get militant. They start screwing with ranchers, farmers and just every day land-owners who know the land they use and live on better than some bureaucrat in Washington. Land owners who try to comply with regulations just get shown more hoops to jump through. The attitude out of Washington is, they are in power and control and just plain, lack common sense. They dictate rather than try to work with people and use intimidation and outrageous fines to get their way. If, they'd get out from behind their desks and get out there and get 'dirty' and visit with folks and try to come-up with reasonable ideas to help rather than just 'rule', things might be different. Their 'my way or the highway' attitude isn't helping anything. Just my opinion!


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

quade

******

Quote

The EPA has gone too far. Much like other radical groups.

Oh , please.
If people think the EPA is a "radical group" they have truly been brainwashed by the right-wing media.

All govt groups have jack booted thugs that over step the boundaries of common sense.

All government groups have opposing groups of whackos (sometimes carrying guns for extra bravado) who will show up to protest just about anything.

So, yes, it's prudent for the government to also show up armed when confronting a dude who is in arrears in his taxes by a million dollars.

I can almost assure you the first contact and option by the government in this case was not to show up armed. They've been sending letters for 20 years.

OH, they sent letters! That'll do it! Why didn't they go out and visit with the man in person, get his side of the story and relate their side of the story. All those letters did was piss-off the rancher and set-up what just took place. I get the impression that Washington bureaucrats think farmers and ranchers are a bunch of straw chomping bumpkins who need to be told how to care for the land. If, they'd do a little digging, they'd find that a good number of farmers and ranchers have been to colleges and universities and learned how to take care of their land for better results. They learned from their grandparents who lived through the 'dust bowl' and floods and droughts. They've educated themselves so they can produce better beef and crops. I don't believe they need some arrogant desk jockey who probably got his job for supporting some politician and wouldn't know the eatin' end from the shittin' end of a cow, telling them 'how to do it'.


Chuck

[quade 3]

Letters can go both ways.

If the guy wanted to prove his case, that the land was his to graze on, it would have been trivial to do so.

Instead, he ignored them.

THAT is never a good idea.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[masterrig 1]

Probably not but the BLM, like I said, could have done it face to face, man to man, instead of some feather-legged letter. All letters of that kind do is piss people off and builds animosity. Besides, just what is wrong with an adult face to face meeting? Seems to me that it could lead to better relations and understanding on both sides. What do you think?


Chuck

[quade 3]

masterrig

Besides, just what is wrong with an adult face to face meeting?

They are inefficient as hell.

Or, are you in favor of the government spending money employing additional civil servants whose sole purpose is to make house calls?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[masterrig 1]

quade

***Besides, just what is wrong with an adult face to face meeting?

They are inefficient as hell.

Or, are you in favor of the government spending money employing additional civil servants whose sole purpose is to make house calls?

Wow! They don't have to hire more people... use the one's they have already or put the 'letter writers' to work. Make them earn their keep!


Chuck

[billvon 2,400]

> that tank isn't big enough to cause a problem. He didn't leave the stream dammed up.

Well, he said he did. Maybe he was wrong, but so far that's what it sounds like.

> The guy followed the requirements of the State of Wyoming. Everything in
>regard to that stream is just like it was before he built that tank.

No, now the stream flows through his pond and out the spillway of the dam. From his own words: "Now the water flows out of the pond like a spillway" Is he changing his story?

He sounds like he made a minor screwup up and, rather than being responsible about it, is crying to the media to avoid responsibility for his actions. And that's his right, I suppose. But I have a lot more respect for the people who just quietly do the responsible thing. They might not make the news, but they're a lot more important in the scheme of things.

[masterrig 1]

Bill, I've read everything I could find on the subject here and find no mention of the man building a 'spillway' on his pond. Only that the EPA is accusing him of building a dam and that material is seeping into the waterway. That's it. Maybe you can explain to me how the EPA can overrule a State's requirements for the pond. Doesn't The EPA inform the States of their regulations and requirement to comply? The man, according to all I can find, followed Wyoming State regulations and has a letter from the State of Wyoming stating that he is in compliance and due to the type of stock tank, is exempt from EPA regulations.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

wmw999

Quote

All govt groups have jack booted thugs morons that over step the boundaries of common sense.

Unfortunately, morons with some power can become jack booted thugs. True in any organization.

Consider police who act that way, military who act that way, the office manager who acts that way, the teacher who acts that way, the parent who acts that way, the bully who acts that way, the CEO in a company town who acts that way, the political donor who acts that way. When you're in thrall to them, either legally or financially, then you're screwed.

Sometimes we call it "survival of the fittest."

We tend to glorify power; that makes some of these morons decide that the way to show that they're cool and powerful is to throw themselves around.

Gummint gives them a bigger voice.

Wendy P.

...and the government really makes some lousy choices, too!


Chuck

[billvon 2,400]

> Bill, I've read everything I could find on the subject here and find no mention
> of the man building a 'spillway' on his pond.

OK. I am just repeating what the guy said in the article above. As I mentioned, maybe he is lying about it - in which case I'd tend to think he was lying about other things as well.

> Maybe you can explain to me how the EPA can overrule a State's requirements for the pond.

Same way the EPA can overrule a State's requirements for pollution. One of the reasons the EPA was formed was to avoid cases where you could pollute a river that left your state, leaving the downstream states to deal with the pollution. Wyoming (for example) could care less if you pollute the Green River once it leaves the state; then it's Utah's problem.

Thus the EPA created requirements that crossed state boundaries, so one state could not "flush its problem" down the river.