Money made at others' expense

[weekender 0]

DougH

Just a matter of opinion.

Everyone makes their money at someones expense, what is open to interpretation is whether it is deserved, right, fair, etc.

You can question a banks profits, and its CEO's compensation.

Someone else might question a public state university's funding and annual tuition amounts, and its presidents pay.

CEO's are paid out of the same revenue that they are paid to manage and grow, and are at least somewhat accountable to the shareholders. Don't like it band together as shareholders, or dump the stock.

your reasonable post is not welcome here. only some people earn their income. you need to read the previous posts and hundreds of threads on this topic again.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Channman 2]

billvon

Do you think capitalism is "money made at other's expense?"

>You can’t get money without taking it from somebody.

True of poor people as well.

Very good exchange between you and Quade.

The company I work for provides engineering / design and fabrication service to clients through-out the world. We are booming and hiring skilled CAD designers and Structural/Mechanical Engineers.

The owner of this company has for the Past 3.5 years I've been here give each employee a bonus based on our productivity and earnings. Last year my bonus was more than four years worth of raises I received when working for NASA which averaged 3.5% per year.

We make money because we provide the Petrochemical Industry a product/service they themselves can't provide and it's a great marriage that we cultivate each and every day. Because if we don't provide a value to our clients they usually go else where.

[base698 1]

Quote

Just a matter of opinion.

Everyone makes their money at someones expense, what is open to interpretation is whether it is deserved, right, fair, etc.

CEO pay is one matter. But I think what he was originally alluding to is when a bank executive uses mom and pops deposit to make risky bets. When the bets go ok they make 10% and when the bets go sour they lose the whole bank and then have to get tax money from mom and pop to stay in business.

[rehmwa 2]

base698

when the bets go sour they lose the whole bank and then have to get tax money from mom and pop to stay in business.

this is the other thread -

agreed - subsidies, bailouts, entitlements, etc etc etc is always at someone else's expense. That's what government spending is - government does not add value, only spending other people's money (i.e., someone else's expense)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 3]

rehmwa

...government does not add value...

I find roads, bridges, schools, water, sanitation, the military, disease control, the national weather service, the national park service, air traffic control and a few other things the government does pretty valuable.

We might quibble over funding levels for any and all, but there is no doubt in my mind my life has been enriched by all of the ones listed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,434]

>government does not add value, only spending other people's money

When you define it that way, that's true of everything in capitalism. Everyone only spends other people's money. Spending money does not ADD value. At best, money is exchanged for value. You might exchange some money for a new rig. That doesn't add value, but it does let you skydive. That, in turn, might allow you to trade your labor (doing video) for someone else's money (getting paid by a DZ for tandem videos.) Do enough of that sort of thing and you contribute to what we consider to be a strong economy, based on people trading their labor for other people's money and their money for other people's labor.

Likewise, a government might exchange some money to build highways. That does not ADD value; it only moves money from taxpayers to construction workers. However, Schneider Trucking might then use those roads to be able to exchange their labor (trucking) for money (getting paid by shipping customers.) Again, do enough of that and you are contributing to a strong economy.

That's not to say that the governmental and private sectors are the same, of course. In the private sector you have no say over what money is spent on - but you can choose not to participate in a company by not buying their goods or not working for them. In the government you cannot choose to not participate (everyone has to pay taxes) but you do get a say, through voting, in how that money is spent.

[rehmwa 2]

Stop it. I'm trying to be absolutist here.....




(just because I agree with much of those couple of posts doesn 't mean I'll acknowledge it or be nice. that's not how it's done in Speaker's Corner, darn it)

Quote

In the government ...... but you do get a say, through voting, in how that money is spent.

that's really cute to think that

In voting, we get to choose which shill will spend our money irresponsibly and not how we'd like. It's a start, I guess.....

Quote

In the private sector you have no say over what money is spent on - but you can choose not to participate in a company by not buying their goods or not working for them.

I trust market forces (i.e., my "choice" in how I participate) to be a better way to control how my money is spent than voting in reps to government frankly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

quade

Will Rogers said,

Quote

The difference between our rich and poor grows greater every year. Our distribution of wealth is getting more uneven all the time. A man can make a million and he is on every page in the morning. But it never tells you who gave up that million he got. You can’t get money without taking it from somebody.

Some things just don't change.

You can't make up your mind if this is theft, or as Bill points out, exchange of money for services. Tesla didn't steal billions from its customers - it gave them something they wanted for a pretty steep price. But it was entirely voluntary.

Dimon is making serious bucks because he headed JPM as it went from big fucking bank to an even bigger one. He didn't steal it. It wasn't his fault that Bear mismanaged itself into bankrupcy. Same with blaming BoFa for all the sins committed by Countrywide.

And it works on the other side too - when people voluntary opt to spend more money than they have on new cars, smart phones and other consumer luxuries, that's not the rich taking advantage of them. When they choose to cash out their mutual funds in 2009 at the bottom and earn 0.5% interest for 5 years and then finally reenter the market at a record high, that's voluntary stupidity. The rich benefit, but hardly took unfair advantage. They're the ones who did the right thing in the first place. Buy in 2009. Sell in 2013. Not the other way around.

[quade 3]

Quote

You can't make up your mind if this is theft, or...

Fraud.

Which in a LOT of cases it is. Look at the number of industries in the US which prey upon the hopes of people knowing full well they will never deliver or have to be held accountable; Scientology, palm readers, quack medicine.

Or, illegal or unfair practices. Look at the number of companies who knowingly poison the people around them and again, know they'll probably never really be held accountable; BP, Freedom Industries.

Look at the number of companies who have bilked their investors and employees; Enron.

Seems to me there are a shameful number of companies in America who knowingly commit fraud on a daily basis.

Bottom line and once again to answer billv's question about how can anybody make money at other people's expense . . . in a bajillion ways and it happens every day.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,434]

>In voting, we get to choose which shill will spend our money irresponsibly and not how we'd like.

That's one way to look at it. Of course, you could say the same about private business - you get to choose which corrupt, greedy, worker-abusing corporation to give your money to to buy their overpriced, shoddy products.

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>In voting, we get to choose which shill will spend our money irresponsibly and not how we'd like.

That's one way to look at it. Of course, you could say the same about private business - you get to choose which corrupt, greedy, worker-abusing corporation to give your money to to buy their overpriced, shoddy products.

exactly - so both we don't get much choice about how the money is spent. but at least in one, we get to choose who gets the money to start with.....


who do you trust more with you money -

the guy that realizes you can cut him off whenever he gets caught?

or the series of guys that have authority to keep taking your money whether he gets caught or not?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,434]

>Look at the number of companies who have bilked their investors and employees; Enron.

Now look at the companies that haven't, and do the comparison. Most people (like most government officials) are pretty decent people who try to do the right thing for their investors, constituents, customers, bosses etc. We read about the exceptions.

>Seems to me there are a shameful number of companies in America who knowingly
>commit fraud on a daily basis.

Sure, and there are a shameful number of people on welfare who knowingly commit crimes every day - and there are a shameful number of politicians who knowingly lie to voters every day.

But that doesn't mean that most companies are evil, or that most politicians are crooks, or that most people on welfare belong in jail.

[billvon 2,434]

> but at least in one, we get to choose who gets the money to start with.....

But again, someone might claim that they have to eat, so they have to choose which corrupt, greedy, worker-abusing corporation give their money to. They don't have a choice; they gotta eat!

And you might say "that's silly, of course you have a choice." But they might see private industry like you see government - as something completely out of their control, something that just lets you choose which company (or politician) gets to defraud you.

I don't really think either position represents what really happens out there. Companies (like politicians) try to appear to be as good/generous/smart as possible while giving people what they want. (and those two are definitely not the same things.) Both aim to please your average person, which means they are targeting a person who doesn't do much research. Which is why catchy slogans and action-packed ads work better than actually providing good products/making good decisions.

>who do you trust more with you money -
>the guy that realizes you can cut him off whenever he gets caught?

I don't think Fresh-n-Easy executives live in fear that I will "cut him off" if I feel they are defrauding me. However, if most of their customers decide that, then that might "incentivize" them to be a bit more honest. Or not, in which case they go out of business.

Likewise, I doubt that your senator lives in fear that he will lose your vote. However, if most of the voters in your state decide that he's a jerk, then that might "incentivize" him to be a bit more honest. Or not, in which case he gets voted out of office.

[kelpdiver 2]

quade

Bottom line and once again to answer billv's question about how can anybody make money at other people's expense . . . in a bajillion ways and it happens every day.

Again, this is answering a different question that the subject of this thread. There's no doubt that people can make money at other's expense - your own primary example (Enron) was criminal in nature and people went to prison for it.

But the assertion of the opinion Kallend cited asserted that everyone in the financial sector was making money at the expense of the rest of us. IOW, that the norm is this unfair transfer.

[Southern_Man 0]

quade

***...government does not add value...

I find roads, bridges, schools, water, sanitation, the military, disease control, the national weather service, the national park service, air traffic control and a few other things the government does pretty valuable.


Right, but apart from roads, bridges, schools, water, sanitation, the military, disease control, the national weather service, the national park service, air traffic control and a few other things, what have the Romans ever done for us?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[quade 3]

Southern_Man

Right, but apart from ... what have the Romans ever done for us?

Rebranded Greek gods?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 212]

quade

***Right, but apart from ... what have the Romans ever done for us?

Rebranded Greek gods?

Bath houses . . .

Aquaducts . . .

Statues without arms.

When did they give us the ATC?

But they did give us a style of government with the Senate . . .

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,648]

base698

Quote

Just a matter of opinion.

Everyone makes their money at someones expense, what is open to interpretation is whether it is deserved, right, fair, etc.

CEO pay is one matter. But I think what he was originally alluding to is when a bank executive uses mom and pops deposit to make risky bets. When the bets go ok they make 10% and when the bets go sour they lose the whole bank and then have to get tax money from mom and pop to stay in business.

And pay for their bonuses.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,648]

quade

Quote

You can't make up your mind if this is theft, or...

Fraud.

Which in a LOT of cases it is. Look at the number of industries in the US which prey upon the hopes of people knowing full well they will never deliver or have to be held accountable; Scientology, palm readers, quack medicine.

Or, illegal or unfair practices. Look at the number of companies who knowingly poison the people around them and again, know they'll probably never really be held accountable; BP, Freedom Industries.

...

Bottom line and once again to answer billv's question about how can anybody make money at other people's expense . . . in a bajillion ways and it happens every day.

And it gets easier the more congresspersons the company's owners have bought.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

Southern_Man

******...government does not add value...

I find roads, bridges, schools, water, sanitation, the military, disease control, the national weather service, the national park service, air traffic control and a few other things the government does pretty valuable.


Right, but apart from roads, bridges, schools, water, sanitation, the military, disease control, the national weather service, the national park service, air traffic control and a few other things, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Brought peace?

[bakerjan 0]

kallend

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-money-made-at-others-expense/2014/01/28/61a275fc-8853-11e3-a5bd-844629433ba3_story.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop

Nice straw man header, "professor", every dollar every human being makes is "made at others' expense," would love to hear you explain schroedinger's cat in those physics classes you supposedly teach, lol.

Jan

[rickjump1 0]

rehmwa

***when the bets go sour they lose the whole bank and then have to get tax money from mom and pop to stay in business.

this is the other thread -

agreed - subsidies, bailouts, entitlements, etc etc etc is always at someone else's expense. That's what government spending is - government does not add value, only spending other people's money (i.e., someone else's expense)All these entitlements have created a class by itself: people who refuse to work because they can make more on welfare than the minimum wage in 35 states (thanks to the people working). http://visiontoamerica.com/16720/welfare-paying-more-than-minimum-wage-in-35-states/"After the CATO Institute completed their study, they released their finding in a 52 page document titled, “The Work Versus Welfare Trade Off.” As it turns out, the government will pay you more if you just sit at home than if you were to go to work—in some instances 2-3 times as much.

The study goes to prove that Obama’s handouts are generating a society that—out of common sense—would rather sit at home and wait for their check than actually go and work for less."

Make you think he's intent on dividing the country.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rehmwa 2]

rickjump1

***agreed - subsidies, bailouts, entitlements, etc etc etc is always at someone else's expense. .........

All these entitlements have created a class by itself: people who refuse to work because they can make more on welfare

My point is there, but you are restricing that to individuals and generations of individuals on entitlements.

But I'm also talking about corporate bailouts, subsidizing industries, etc etc etc. It's not just the poor and dependent, it's also the rich and dependent, and the huge and dependent.

your statement should be extended to all of it (creates a culture and dependency) - not just the welfare class only.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,648]

rickjump1

******when the bets go sour they lose the whole bank and then have to get tax money from mom and pop to stay in business.

this is the other thread -

agreed - subsidies, bailouts, entitlements, etc etc etc is always at someone else's expense. That's what government spending is - government does not add value, only spending other people's money (i.e., someone else's expense)All these entitlements have created a class by itself: people who refuse to work because they can make more on welfare than the minimum wage in 35 states (thanks to the people working). http://visiontoamerica.com/16720/welfare-paying-more-than-minimum-wage-in-35-states/"After the CATO Institute completed their study, they released their finding in a 52 page document titled, “The Work Versus Welfare Trade Off.” As it turns out, the government will pay you more if you just sit at home than if you were to go to work—in some instances 2-3 times as much.

The study goes to prove that Obama’s handouts are generating a society that—out of common sense—would rather sit at home and wait for their check than actually go and work for less."

Make you think he's intent on dividing the country.

Do you really take right wing hate sites like that seriously?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rickjump1 0]

kallend

*********when the bets go sour they lose the whole bank and then have to get tax money from mom and pop to stay in business.

this is the other thread -

agreed - subsidies, bailouts, entitlements, etc etc etc is always at someone else's expense. That's what government spending is - government does not add value, only spending other people's money (i.e., someone else's expense)All these entitlements have created a class by itself: people who refuse to work because they can make more on welfare than the minimum wage in 35 states (thanks to the people working). http://visiontoamerica.com/16720/welfare-paying-more-than-minimum-wage-in-35-states/"After the CATO Institute completed their study, they released their finding in a 52 page document titled, “The Work Versus Welfare Trade Off.” As it turns out, the government will pay you more if you just sit at home than if you were to go to work—in some instances 2-3 times as much.

The study goes to prove that Obama’s handouts are generating a society that—out of common sense—would rather sit at home and wait for their check than actually go and work for less."

Make you think he's intent on dividing the country.

Do you really take right wing hate sites like that seriously? Ah, the liberal left....Remember, this wasn't "color coded", but it's still hate no matter how truthful it is. Now tell me what was so hateful about this truthful information?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.