Reserve with a built in turn?

[maxdog 0]

After doing a reasonable two-way jump last Sunday, I turned and tracked at about 5000ft, stopped tracking and turned slightly to check separation, before opening at about 3500, all as normal. Then BANG, my main canopy (a Triathlon in a Mirage G3) opened like I’ve never known before! I was a little dazed & shaken up, but I was with it enough to check the canopy, which unfortunately appeared to have several lines flapping about loosely above my head. I grabbed my steering toggles to check if it was controllable and the right one just came off in my hand-the brake lines had snapped.

By this time the canopy was starting to turn, even with the remaining brake released, so after an attempt at a little rear riser and considering landing it like that for about a second, I decided to go for my first cutaway.

So, I cut away, (much harder than I expected, possibly because I was spinning?) attempted to get stable and pulled my reserve when I could see the ground below me. (Once I’d decided to cutaway it all just seemed to happen, so the training does work.)

The reserve (a Raven) opened like a dream, and with a little relief I started to do my canopy checks once again. After grabbing both brakes and releasing them I appeared to have a right turn built into the reserve canopy. I managed to get it flying straight by pulling the left steering toggle down to just above my waist and leaving the right on full drive. I was just a little concerned at this point, so not knowing what was wrong, or if one half of the canopy was about to collapse or stall I decided to take it extremely carefully, point it into wind with a very very slow turn and just leave it fly down as at was.

Unfortunately at about 500ft I realised I was heading for the old concrete runway, but as the wind was fairly strong (15ish knots) and gusty, I decided that landing on concrete was a better option than trying to turn, and perhaps stalling or spiralling a partly disabled reserve canopy in from 300feet, so I just let it fly! I was fine till about 6 –8 feet when a gust caught me and took me over sideways. I did my best PLF and rolled several times, but unluckily my kneecap hit a pebble and shattered, but apart from that I’m fine.

I’m sure that if I’d managed to land on the grass I’d have walked away a bit stiff and sore, but as it is I’ve a couple of pins and a little wire in my patella, and the odd scrape here and there and will be off for 2 – 3 months. any ideas?

PH36 Canopy Formation Team.
www.skydive99.com
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[ZigZagMarquis 8]

What make/model/serial number/DOM is your Raven Reserve? Not sure if its good gouge or not, so I'll caviate this... but older Ravens had a "rep" for what you describe (a bulit in turn)... although, one toggle in full flight and one down to your waist, as you describe, sounds a bit "much". Also, what are / were you loading the canopy at? Older style / generation reserves don't like to be loaded a much more the 1:1.

I've got a Raven IIG DOM circa 94 or 95 with one ride on it, but I'm loading it less that 1:1. It opened great and stood me up on landing. I don't recall it having a built in turn... or it was so slight, I don't remember... the ride I had on it was over 1000 jumps ago.

Your best source of information as to "what happened"... "what to do"... with respect to the built in turn, would be to talk to your local rigger and would be to contact Precision.

Good luck. Glad you're okay and heal up quick.



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[maxdog 0]

It’s a raven dash M and about ten years old, I don’t have any other details at the moment as a friend has it and is going to drop it off at a riggers for me this weekend, but I’ll try and find out for you.
One theory I’ve heard is that the hard opening loosened one of my legstraps causing a harness turn, and if the canopy had a turn already this could have made it worse?
It’s a 218 sq ft canopy and I’m 200lbs in the door, so I don’t thing I’m overloading it. It’s a previously owned rig, but as far as I know from what I was told when I got it and the repack documentation, it’s the first time it’s been used.

PH36 Canopy Formation Team.
www.skydive99.com
www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/PH36-Canopy-Formati

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Its probably not important that you answer all of those questions to me... other then I and I'm sure others on the board would be curious to know and how things turn out... I was just trying to share some info with you and maybe give you some thoughts/questions to go over with when talking to your rigger and/or Precision.

As for my 1:1 loading of older style reserves... you say you're out the door at 200, and, correct, a Raven II is a 218, so, you're right about at 1:1 / slightly under... please take my comment as a "rule of thumb" that older style reserves don't like to loaded over 1:1... I'm sure we could come up with info to contradict that, its just a "generality", but seems to hold true... doesn't mean they're "bad", just means they don't like to be flown there.

Anyway, since you mention it was a Dash-M... one other thing you may wish to check on is whether or not the Dash-M you have (s/n) is affected by Mandatory Service Bulletin SB1221 or not... if "yes"... has it been complied with (i.e. was the work done)... if the answer is "yes" your canopy is affected, but "no" the work hasn't been done... you may want to, again, get with your rigger and contact Precision and ask them what to do next now that the canopy has been jumped.

I'd be really interested to hear what you find out about the built-in-turn from your rigger / Precision. Yes, the harness / leg-strap slip-age theory could be a contributor.

Again, good luck and heal up.

[wmw999 2,171]

It's certainly not endemic to lightly-loaded -M's; I load mine at just above (instead of just below) 1:1, and had no such turn. It's from the late 90's.

I wouldn't imagine that implementing the service bulletin would change anything about a turn. I'd definitely have a rigger look at the overall trim of the canopy, or maybe, since you unfortunately have some time now , send it back to the factory for an evaluation.

It bears understanding.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[fcajump 153]

General thoughts... from your description it sounds like you kept your head, delt with what you were given and fought it all the way down... Good for you!! (I've had gravel dug out of a knee after a similar landing... heal well/soon.)

Several thoughts:

Main - even with your remaining brake unstowed it can place more drag than one completely broken. However, when you get it back in the air check to see if the "full flight" is really "full". Generally, the brake line should just slightly bow back in the wind and the canopy tail should not be distorted. See what you see and discuss it with your rigger as it applies to your particular canopy.

Reserve -
First thought is an uneven leg strap can cause this behaviour. If you have an unexplained turn and have the opportunity, check to ensure your leg straps are even and that you are sitting square in the harness.
Secondly, it could have a trim issue (which a rigger can check when he verifies that your Dash-M had the service bulletin work done.)
Lastly, used canopies can be GREAT. But they also could have previously been wet or over stressed. Either of these could change the flight charactoristics of the canopy.

I would suggest a complete checkout of the entire gear (more than might be done on a routine AIR).

Just my $.02, worth exactly what you pair for it

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[redramdriver 0]

Just from your description of the built in turn, I too had the same thing happen to me, minus the biffed in landing. I did have to do a great PLF, rolled about 3 times, and said DAMM that sucks. Sent the canopy back, *(same as yours) they checked it out and jumped it. Had the same built in turn for them. They replaced the reserve with a brand new one, free of charge. Give them a call and see what they will do for you. Good Luck.

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

It's certainly not endemic to lightly-loaded -M's; I load mine at just above (instead of just below) 1:1, and had no such turn. It's from the late 90's.

I wouldn't imagine that implementing the service bulletin would change anything about a turn. I'd definitely have a rigger look at the overall trim of the canopy, or maybe, since you unfortunately have some time now , send it back to the factory for an evaluation.

It bears understanding.

Wendy W.

Not to speculate too wildly... I'd be concerned what the manufacturer would say IF the SB hadn't been done, but should have, and now the canopy has been jumped...

[koppel 3]

I am currently working under a rigger towards my rating. One scenario I have heard of from him from before I started with him was a reserve that had a turn similar to yours caused by the ribs on one side of the canopy being built for the next size up.

I forget the size of the canopy but for example a 150'ish reserve with three ribs on one side built for a 160!!

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[billvon 2,473]

>I'd be concerned what the manufacturer would say IF the SB hadn't
> been done, but should have, and now the canopy has been jumped...

"This is the Rigging Police! You're under arrest for deploying a suspect reserve!"

Those canopies got jumped a lot without the mod. I suspect they'd just tell you to make the mod.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

>I'd be concerned what the manufacturer would say IF the SB hadn't
> been done, but should have, and now the canopy has been jumped...

"This is the Rigging Police! You're under arrest for deploying a suspect reserve!"

Those canopies got jumped a lot without the mod. I suspect they'd just tell you to make the mod.

Well... obviously it worked, mod or no-mod... was just wondering what Precision would say...

[Ronaldo 0]

Hi Mark,
I don’t have much experience but I really don’t think that a 7 cell canopy loaded at less than 1.0lbs/sqft would be so sensitive to harness input (as you mentioned, you almost had to pull one toggle down to your waist). The first thing you can do is check the lineset regarding symmetry (all lines, including brakes). If the lineset is OK then you definitely have a problem on the fabric (panels cut or sewn wrong, reinforcement tape shrinkage, etc).
I’ve seen 2 canopies with built in turns (one was mine), both new generation models. No matter how precise the laser cutting gets, a human being still sews everything so mistakes will always happen. I guess better tools, training and quality control are helping reduce these mistakes on newer designs.
BTW, what just happened to you was the main reason I switched my Tempo for a PDR. Tempos seem to have a history of built-in turns. I still would feel much more comfortable if I had the opportunity to jump it as a main.
Congratulations for performing your EPs well. I wish you a quick recovery.

Blue skies!

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

"This is the Rigging Police! You're under arrest for deploying a suspect reserve!"

Those canopies got jumped a lot without the mod. I suspect they'd just tell you to make the mod.

I don't really think that was the point he was trying to make.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,473]

>was just wondering what Precision would say...

Having known George for a long time, I suspect there'd be a long pause, and then he'd say "You know, you should really get that mod done." If they had it, they'd probably just do it and tell you they did it.

[maxdog 0]

It is one of the Raven Dash-M’s that needed the mod, and this had been done before I got it. As it was a used rig I had it fully checked by a master rigger before I parted with any cash, and she confirmed that it all appeared ok and that the mod had indeed been done correctly, as have several other riggers who’ve repacked it since.

I’ll defiantly be in contact with Precision Aerodynamics, but even if it all checks out ok I think I’d want someone to rig it and jump it as a main before I rely on it again. It’s not a nice feeling to have a problem under your reserve, especially after your first cutaway!

PH36 Canopy Formation Team.
www.skydive99.com
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[JohnMitchell 14]

Just a side note: Do any of you ever pack your new reserve in a main container and put a jump on it before putting it into reserve service? I've done that with a number of reserves, and it's a nice little piece of mind.

Just a thought.

• Quote

[billvon 2,473]

> Do any of you ever pack your new reserve in a main container
>and put a jump on it before putting it into reserve service?

I never did. Back when I was getting my reserve repacked by someone else, it was an issue because many riggers think that's illegal or something. Nowadays I have enough 'real' flights on both my reserves that I know how it will fly.

[Ronaldo 0]

I used to think about this all the time when I had a Tempo. Now I have a PDR which makes me a little bit more comfortable, but I still haven't give up on the idea. I think not having a bridle attachment on the canopy is the major issue now.

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Just a side note: Do any of you ever pack your new reserve in a main container and put a jump on it before putting it into reserve service? I've done that with a number of reserves, and it's a nice little piece of mind.

Just a thought.

Interesting thought. Years ago I seem to remember hearing the story of a Raven that some rigger came across.

It either went like this... John Doe Rigger opens a rig for a reserve I&R that someone gave to him... on inspection he feels that the Raven installed as a reserve was at some time jumped as a main for awhile given the amount of wear and repairs that were done to it, but then at some point the canopy was returned to service a reserve.... OR... the story went something like someone was advertising a Raven for sale as a reserve, but when inspected by Jane Doe Rigger she felt that the canopy had been jumped a number of times as a main... I can't remember exactly how the story went, maybe it was two seperate insances that both involved a Raven since, up until recently, Ravens were the only remaining reserves around with a main D-Bag/bridle attach point "standard"... and going back a little further, there were some folks still jumping them as mains... so, at least the potential existed for a Raven to be jumped as a main and somehow put back into service as a reserve.

Its an interesting question JohnM brings up. The reserves in both of my rigs (a Raven in the Talon94, and a PDR in the Jav) both have 1 hit each on them and I have no problem with them being there as a reserve... so... what would be different then if that 1 hit had been a "test jump" as a main when I first got the canopy? Probabaly not much difference... although my first blush would be to NOT make that "test jump" / "first hit" a terminal one... however... at what point would you say "no" I'm not going to put this canopy TSO'd as a reserve into service as a reserve after its been jumped as main for 100 jumps... 50 jumps... 25 jumps... 15 jumps... 10 jumps... 5 jumps... ????... you see where I'm going. Their is no rule of manufacturer guid-line I know of... doesn't mean there isn't, I'd like to know if there is... but seems its in the "grey area" of a judgement call on the riggers part.

... but, as it relates back to the original topic of this thread... going out and putting a "test jump" on a new reserve as a main would find something like a built in turn...

[riggerrob 562]

... at what point would you say "no" I'm not going to put this canopy TSO'd as a reserve into service as a reserve after its been jumped as main for 100 jumps... 50 jumps... 25 jumps... 15 jumps... 10 jumps... 5 jumps... ????... you see where I'm going. Their is no rule of manufacturer guide-line I know of... doesn't mean there isn't, I'd like to know if there is... but seems its in the "grey area" of a judgement call on the riggers part.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, that is a grey area.
Few manufacturers have published guidelines on how many times a reserve can be jumped before it is retired.
Performance Designs is one of the few American manufacturers that has published any guidelines. If a PD has been deployed 20 times, it must return to the factory for inspection.
Similarly, back in the mid-1990s, when we were still jumping F-111 tandem mains and suffering a bad malfunction rate, we used to ground Strong tandem reserves after they had 20 jumps. We cut off the Kevlar suspension lines and replaced them with Dacron suspension lines, then put another 300 to 600 jumps on them as mains.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

I think not having a bridle attachment on the canopy is the major issue now.

You need to just use the main bag as a free bag and spot well. I prefer a Cessna jump from 5000' or so with me spotting. I've also jumped a round reserve as a main after it got back from the shop. Took it to terminal to give it the acid test. Pretty brisk. One jump was a Raven reserve, so, yes, there was a bridle attachment point.

Anyway, it takes a bit of doing with attaching to a spare pair of risers and all, but it's a lot of peace of mind for me. My last reserve I didn't do that with, and it's got a small built in turn.

I've seen at least one reserve stall out on the flare, injuring the very petite woman landing it, compression fracture of a vertebra. She seemed to feel it was all her fault, but from watching the incident, I felt the stall point on her reserve was set too high. Maybe practice and foreknowledge would have helped prevent her injury.

[riggerrob 562]

... please take my comment as a "rule of thumb" that older style reserves don't like to loaded over 1:1 ... its just a "generality", but seems to hold true... doesn't mean they're "bad", just means they don't like to be flown there.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Back when the Raven canopy was designed (circa 1983), no one knew how to make a main loaded more than 1:1 land softly, so it would be silly to expect a Raven reserve to land softly when loaded more than 1:1.

It was not until a few years after ZP fabric was introduced (Parachutes de France 1988, Performance Designs 1989, Air Time Designs circa 1990) that manufacturers started to understand how to design canopies that landed softly at wing loadings of more than 1:1.

[Ronaldo 0]

Another good reason I see to do this test is the opportunity to adjust brake line length to get the maximum flare. It would help a lot in a real emergency situation.
I think I'll do this test jump! I have the perfect plane and DZ for it. It's a big farm on the countryside with a very nice runway and a few ultralight aircrafts that I often jump from. (including a friend's trike which I like a lot). It is a very large and safe place with plenty of space and no traffic.
Is there any problem to the reserve besides depreciation of resale value (i.e. increase porosity)?
Safe skies!

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[fcajump 153]

Quote

... at what point would you say "no" I'm not going to put this canopy TSO'd as a reserve into service as a reserve after its been jumped as main for 100 jumps... 50 jumps... 25 jumps... 15 jumps... 10 jumps... 5 jumps... ????... you see where I'm going. Their is no rule of manufacturer guide-line I know of... doesn't mean there isn't, I'd like to know if there is... but seems its in the "grey area" of a judgement call on the riggers part.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, that is a grey area.
Few manufacturers have published guidelines on how many times a reserve can be jumped before it is retired.
Performance Designs is one of the few American manufacturers that has published any guidelines. If a PD has been deployed 20 times, it must return to the factory for inspection.
Similarly, back in the mid-1990s, when we were still jumping F-111 tandem mains and suffering a bad malfunction rate, we used to ground Strong tandem reserves after they had 20 jumps. We cut off the Kevlar suspension lines and replaced them with Dacron suspension lines, then put another 300 to 600 jumps on them as mains.

This is why (I understand) PD requires their reserves to be recertified after a certain number of deployments (less than the repack/recert count)... Because each flight takes a (small) toll on the fabric.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...