There's no such thing as PTSD

[jclalor 12]

BIGUN

The worst four letters combined in the alphabet.

Now declared and labeled as a disability... people will live to that label to keep getting their checks.

As a society, we have known for a while the high cost for sending our fellow citizens into battle, it should really play a factor in our decisions to wage war.

Some people really rally around the "Lets support our troops" until the bill comes in.

[davjohns 1]

I have a habit of reducing things to their simplest forms for execution. People like to dismiss my solutions as too simple. But I'll give it another go.

Few of our national representatives have ever served in uniform. Many of them have never done much more than make laws for other people and be politicians. There was a time when a King, Emperor, etc. went to war at the front of his troops. His sons went off to war. He was heavily invested in the reality of war. We've lost that.

I would recommend that any war-like action (police actions, UN Security Force, etc.) find the President at the front and the first born of every Senator and Congress Member serving at the front. Only when our (so called) 'Leadership' has something more on the line than re-election can we expect them to make sober decisions on when to send Americans into harm's way. The Vice President can take up the slack while the President is away. Every member of government would have a vested interest in finding a diplomatic solution to the conflict.

I haven't done any research. I'm curious how many of our top representatives have children or grandchildren in the services...

And as far as the discussion on "The Holy Bible"...the responses that indicate it is one book, written by one person, in one language, to one audience, never changed, and for one purpose...tells me people are rendering opinions with precious few facts.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[RonD1120 58]

quade

I believe you believe you do, but I do not believe you do.

That's OK.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

Stumpy

***
The DoD publishes monthly suicide data for active duty/active reserve/national guard Army. The other branches do not publish such data. We are averaging around 13-20 per month. That is tragic.

Absolutely that's tragic - same as any suicide. I'm curious though - is there any data as to how that relates to the population as a whole? I would guess that its much higher, but its only a guess.

DoD only releases raw data for the Army. To answer your question would require extrapolation from several sources.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Stumpy 256]

Fair enough - just curious.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Darius11 12]

jclalor

***It's easy to dismiss these guys as out-of-touch, snake-handling douches. I'd usually be among the first, I'm sure.

But re-read what he says, squint a little between the lines of his verbiage, and then consider: what do people usually say to a relative or close friend who comes back from combat suffering trauma and guilt, to console them? Probably that they shouldn't feel guilt because they were doing their duty to their country, protecting their families and acting heroically in the face of mortal hazard. Now, that's not a perfect analogy to what these guys said using their bible-thumping rhetoric, but - nitpicking and semantics aside - the basic "therapeutic" approach, and underlying psychology, is pretty similar, if not the same - just a matter of delivery.

I think there is a lot more to PTSD than a feeling of guilt. I think that may me a small part of it, but the experience of living through something truly horrifying is the main component. It sounds to me as if Copeland is also suggesting that if the war is "Just" than any conduct during the war is justified and not feel any guilt. although it's difficult to imagine what would constitute a war-crime in the OT.

I think Copeland is trying to again dismiss a complex medical/science issue with a Biblical answer. He also the nut who dismissed vaccines for true believers. Those who are unlucky enough to subscribe to his BS, will now blame themselves instead of seeking medical help.


I agree with part of what is said, that if the war is just you have a lot less cases of PTSD.

I think the horrors of war are just that horrific to deal with for anyone; however when you add a questionable reasoning and methods then your mind and conscience will not let you rest.

Off course this only applies to people who have a good mental health to begin with.

WWI, WWII you had no choice you HAVE to fight, when someone comes in to your home to hurt your family you have to fight.
So times are tough but you do not have the running train of thoughts in your head that you do when your action is questionable.
I think the only other time I can think of just wars is when a country has been invaded and the people of that country fight to kick out the invaders.

During the Iran and Iraq war things were horrifying yes, but there was not one voice who had any question about what needed to be done. There was no alternative in the minds of the public other than fight, fight till we win or die.

When you can’t even understand why the fuck you traveled 14000 miles to go to some one else’s back yard to start shit I bet you have a lot of PTSD as you should if you have a conscience

I think the reasons should be obvious to most.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[winsor 187]

jclalor

***It's easy to dismiss these guys as out-of-touch, snake-handling douches. I'd usually be among the first, I'm sure.

But re-read what he says, squint a little between the lines of his verbiage, and then consider: what do people usually say to a relative or close friend who comes back from combat suffering trauma and guilt, to console them? Probably that they shouldn't feel guilt because they were doing their duty to their country, protecting their families and acting heroically in the face of mortal hazard. Now, that's not a perfect analogy to what these guys said using their bible-thumping rhetoric, but - nitpicking and semantics aside - the basic "therapeutic" approach, and underlying psychology, is pretty similar, if not the same - just a matter of delivery.

I think there is a lot more to PTSD than a feeling of guilt. I think that may me a small part of it, but the experience of living through something truly horrifying is the main component. It sounds to me as if Copeland is also suggesting that if the war is "Just" than any conduct during the war is justified and not feel any guilt. although it's difficult to imagine what would constitute a war-crime in the OT.

I think Copeland is trying to again dismiss a complex medical/science issue with a Biblical answer. He also the nut who dismissed vaccines for true believers. Those who are unlucky enough to subscribe to his BS, will now blame themselves instead of seeking medical help.

One of the reasons I am leery about volunteering as a first responder is the significant likelihood of encountering scenes that will be part of my dreams for years to come.

A cop friend of mine had a two year old daughter when he was called to a house where a two year old girl had fallen into the pool. He got her out and was attempting CPR when she shuddered her last and died. It was months before he was anything similar to his former self.

A guy with whom I worked was on the volunteer ambulance squad until he responded to an accident where a car carrying an entire family was hit by a gravel truck. The Technicolor memories of that event haunted his dreams for years, and sleeping the whole night through was a challenge thereafter.

A woman with whom I worked was a Paramedic, and she had no problem with many gory incidents, but the line was crossed by a man who caught a glove compartment door with his mouth with such force that his eyes came out of the sockets. He lived, but she could not rid herself of the image of this person with his cheeks cut back into a garish "Joker" grin with his eyes hanging out.

Shock is a real and debilitating phenomenon. When hospitalized for massive trauma upon occasion, I have been pumped full of narcotics which serve to lessen the effects of shock. Things I witnessed and was able to handle without a problem at the time, I am not sure I would want to see without being so benumbed.

Everyone has a breaking point. I hope to live to a ripe old age without knowing where mine is.


BSBD,

Winsor

[DanG 1]

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I agree with part of what is said, that if the war is just you have a lot less cases of PTSD.

Then why do so many first responders suffer from PTSD? Or people in terrible accidents?

Frankly, you're practicing internet psychology without a clue.

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WWI, WWII you had no choice you HAVE to fight, when someone comes in to your home to hurt your family you have to fight.

PTSD was rampant in WWI, but they called it something else. It had nothing to do with how just the war was.

BTW, no one came into the US's "home" during WWI, and the Germans didn't invade the US during WWII.

- Dan G

[davjohns 1]

To be fair, they tried to sub-contract the invasion to Mexico.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

PTSD was rampant in WWI, but they called it something else. It had nothing to do with how just the war was.

BTW, no one came into the US's "home" during WWI, and the Germans didn't invade the US during WWII.

You do know that it was not just Germany who was the enemy in WWII right??? You should read before you play internet historian!!
Ahh remember Pearl Harbor?
So we were attacked and it was obvious that the enemy wanted to take over the whole world.

If you were not of the superior race you were going to be killed.

I think it would be a lot less stressful to fight an enemy you know is wrong and is coming for you then when there is obvious questions of who might be in the right or wrong.

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Then why do so many first responders suffer from PTSD? Or people in terrible accidents?

Frankly, you're practicing internet psychology without a clue.

I am sure there are people who will get PTSD if they get bullied in school , or if someone breaks in to their home.

However if you look at the mass numbers you will realize that when the wars are unjust or at minimum questionable you tend to get a lot more people with physiological issues.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

Quote

You do know that it was not just Germany who was the enemy in WWII right??? You should read before you play internet historian!!
Ahh remember Pearl Harbor?

Duh. So according to your theory, people in the Pacific theater should have suffered PTSD less often than people in the European theater. Was that the case?

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I think it would be a lot less stressful to fight an enemy you know is wrong and is coming for you then when there is obvious questions of who might be in the right or wrong.

Yes, that's what you think. Is what you think borne out by real life? You never responded to my point about WWI. You claim it was a just war, so PTSD cases should have been more rare. In fact, PTSD (shell shock) was rampant. So either WWI wasn't a just war, or your theory is bunk.

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However if you look at the mass numbers you will realize that when the wars are unjust or at minimum questionable you tend to get a lot more people with physiological issues.

Please point us to where you're getting these mass numbers.

- Dan G

[Darius11 12]

So what’s your point that the reasoning behind the war has nothing to do with the amount of solders who suffer from PTSD?

I think your missing the point:
We know war sucks (that should be common knowledge) and yes I am speaking from some experience. I haven’t talked to every veteran on the planet but have known a few who fought a just war. Yes they had horrible images in their head, yes it horrific to see your buddy die, but all of that is amplified when the reasoning behind it is questionable or simply bull shit.
When you die protecting your home people don’t think oh that’s awesome but it is easily understood by most.
This should be simple for anyone to understand.

Do you need a study to tell you if you hit your dick with a hammer it hurts before you understand it?

What you are saying is there is no difference it’s just the horrors of war that cause PTSD. The motivation, the reasoning you ended up in that war in that place makes ZERO difference.

So basically your statement means that either all solders are too fucking stupid to know the difference between a just war and a questionable one, or that they lack any conscience to care?



As to this bull shit

Quote

Duh. So according to your theory, people in the Pacific theater should have suffered PTSD less often than people in the European theater. Was that the case?

WTF are you even talking about? if your fighting an evil your fighting an evil. Its not hard to understand.

Wonder why we have so many cases of PTSD and suicides? in the last two wars because when you ask hey why did we go? whats the point? no one fucking knows? There have been a few months where we have had more solders die from suicides then in combat your asking for proof? Dude put two and two together.

Quote

Yes, that's what you think. Is what you think borne out by real life? You never responded to my point about WWI. You claim it was a just war, so PTSD cases should have been more rare. In fact, PTSD (shell shock) was rampant. So either WWI wasn't a just war, or your theory is bunk.

PTSD is not shell shock. i don't care what your Google search told you.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

Yes, let the ignorance flow.

I give up. If you're going to just repeat the same thing over and over without any attempt to back it up, there's no point.

- Dan G

[Darius11 12]

That’s fine I didn’t really see you back up anything, you express what you believe to be true.

I explained to you that motive always makes a difference in the mind of the person who commits the action. The only time it does not is if there is no conscience, or the person is too ignorant to understand the situation.

This is not hard as a matter of fact it is extremely simple humane psychology.
You’re trying to fight that by stating it does not. You’re simply wrong. Motive reasons as to why an action happens are some of the biggest indicators of how we feel about a situation.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

Darius11

PTSD is not shell shock. i don't care what your Google search told you.

Really?

Civil War - Soldier's Heart

WWI - Shell Shock

WWII - Battle Fatigue

Korea - Stress Response Syndrome

Viet Nam - Post Viet Nam Syndrome (also known as "Going Batshit")

There's over 80 different names attributed to the same thing.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DanG 1]

Quote

That’s fine I didn’t really see you back up anything, you express what you believe to be true.

You're the one making the claim that PTSD incidence has increased because the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are unjust. I'll I'm doing is rebutting your theory. I've made no statements of my own to back up.

Quote

I explained to you that motive always makes a difference in the mind of the person who commits the action. The only time it does not is if there is no conscience, or the person is too ignorant to understand the situation.

Yes, you're explained that you think this is true. If I explain that unicorns live inside the Earth and geysers are more prevalent near underground unicorn colonies, it doesn't make it true, no matter how many times I say it. Providing some evidence is required. I was asking for any evidence whatsoever that your pop psychology theory relates to PTSD. You can't provide any.

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You’re simply wrong.

Again, if you can provide any evidence beyond how you feel on the subject, your credibility will go up. Right now you sound like a child stomping his feet and saying the same thing over and over.

I realize you are desperate to show that the wars in Iraq and Afghanstan are unjust. If you want to use the increase in PTSD caused by fighting an unjust war as evidence of that, then you have to do at least two things:

1) Show that the rate of PTSD among US service members has gone up (this should be easy if it is true), while controlling for such things as increased diagnostic efforts and societal acceptance (may be a little harder)
2) Compare the rates of PTSD in "just" wars against those in "unjust" wars, while simulataneously reaching consensus on what makes a war "just" and how these different wars were perceived by the people fighting them (good luck with that part).

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,133]

wolfriverjoe

***

PTSD is not shell shock. i don't care what your Google search told you.

Really?

Civil War - Soldier's Heart

WWI - Shell Shock

WWII - Battle Fatigue

Korea - Stress Response Syndrome

Viet Nam - Post Viet Nam Syndrome (also known as "Going Batshit")

There's over 80 different names attributed to the same thing.

Which begs the question:

How much money has the US spent on weaponry and research into better weapons systems in those years.

Then lets compare that to how much they have spent on PTSD prevention and treatment over that same time period.

[RonD1120 58]

Just in case anyone is interested the diagnostic criteria for PTSD.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/pages/dsm5_criteria_ptsd.asp

Note, we now have a category for children ages six and younger.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

SkyDekker

******

PTSD is not shell shock. i don't care what your Google search told you.

Really?

Civil War - Soldier's Heart

WWI - Shell Shock

WWII - Battle Fatigue

Korea - Stress Response Syndrome

Viet Nam - Post Viet Nam Syndrome (also known as "Going Batshit")

There's over 80 different names attributed to the same thing.

Which begs the question:

How much money has the US spent on weaponry and research into better weapons systems in those years.

Then lets compare that to how much they have spent on PTSD prevention and treatment over that same time period.

The term "cannon fodder" is quite old. Unfortunately, it's always timely.