"Replica" vs "Toy"

[Calvin19 0]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/24/us/boy-13-carrying-toy-guns-is-shot-dead-by-deputies.html?_r=0


I'm not a huge fan of cops, or guns really, but I'm pretty sure I would think that is a real gun if I saw someone with it.

[champu 1]

It's hard to tell scale from the photo and I can't make out the end of the barrel (it looks like it just stops at the gas block which would be weird) but otherwise yeah, I think that's close enough to be of concern, if...

...the circumstances under which the cops saw the kid gave them reason to believe he was a danger to someone.

The article just says, "They were patrolling, saw him with what they mistook for a weapon, told him to drop it and (presumably after he didn't drop it with the level of urgency they desired) shot him."

Were they answering a complaint call? Was the kid playing with his friends outside his house?

[masterrig 1]

The story I read stated that the kid was told o drop it. Rather than dropping it, raised it and pointed it in the direction of deputies. That was when the deputies opened fire, The kid should've done what he was told.

http://home.myhughesnet.com/news/read/category/Top%20News/article/ap-calif_sheriffs_deputies_shoot_kill_13yea-ap


Chuck

[turtlespeed 212]

masterrig

The story I read stated that the kid was told o drop it. Rather than dropping it, raised it and pointed it in the direction of deputies. That was when the deputies opened fire, The kid should've done what he was told.

http://home.myhughesnet.com/news/read/category/Top%20News/article/ap-calif_sheriffs_deputies_shoot_kill_13yea-ap


Chuck

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[champu 1]

Yeah, I read the AP version of the article since my last post...

Quote

After the deputies spotted the boy Tuesday, they called for backup and repeatedly ordered him to drop the gun, sheriff's Lt. Dennis O'Leary said in a news release. His back was turned toward the deputies, and they did not realize at the time that he was a boy.

According to the Santa Rosa police, the boy was about 20 to 30 feet from them when he turned toward the deputies with the gun and they opened fire

Sounds like a shitty situation. Reminds me a bit of the guy who was rummaging around for something in his car and was shot when he got up and turned towards the officers.

[masterrig 1]

Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

[DaVinci 0]

Tragic.

I can't find much fault with the police here. The gun looks real to me from what I can see and when a cop says to drop the weapon you should comply.

[masterrig 1]

DaVinci

Tragic.

I can't find much fault with the police here. The gun looks real to me from what I can see and when a cop says to drop the weapon you should comply.

I agree! This shows a picture of the 'pellet gun' the kid carried. At several feet away, it would be difficult to determine for sure if it's real or not. Someone points a weapon at a peace officer, they will respond in kind.

http://home.myhughesnet.com/news/read/category/Top%20News/article/ap-calif_sheriffs_deputies_shoot_kill_13yea-ap-2


Chuck

[champu 1]

Something I've said before and I'll say again, at the risk of being a Monday morning quarterback...

People (and news aticles) are fast-forwarding to the point where the cops have their weapons drawn, are yelling orders, and anything other than perfect compliance means you're dead. And then they are concluding, "well yeah he turned around with what could easily be mistaken as a weapon, of course the cops did the right thing."

But can the police be doing more to avoid getting themselves into situations where shooting the person because they turn around too quickly or something is a justified response?

[masterrig 1]

As I understand it, that part of their training. Original gangsters get out of prison and return to their gang and they are astounded at how so many kids are in and running gangs and have itchy trigger fingers. Quick to shoot. With that in mind, it makes it more difficult for police. Are cops supposed to wait until one of theirs is killed because they waited to see if the weapon pointed at them is real or a fake? There is a whole different world out there. It's sad this incident happened but the way things are some folks bring it on themselves.


Chuck

[rickjump1 0]

masterrig

Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Bignugget 0]

rickjump1

***Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

I like this sentiment.

All guns are capable of being used to kill. Even the ones that can't shoot.

You wouldn't intuitively think you could kill yourself with a plastic toy gun, but you would be wrong.

This kid proved that.


Like Masterrig said though, when you allow guns to proliferate so much you have to expect cops to shoot first, and never ask questions.

If there were only a million guns floating around instead of 300 million I could see a better case for the cops waiting another 3 seconds to see if it was an actual weapon or not.

[rickjump1 0]

Bignugget

******Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

I like this sentiment.

All guns are capable of being used to kill. Even the ones that can't shoot.

You wouldn't intuitively think you could kill yourself with a plastic toy gun, but you would be wrong.

This kid proved that.


Like Masterrig said though, when you allow guns to proliferate so much you have to expect cops to shoot first, and never ask questions.

If there were only a million guns floating around instead of 300 million I could see a better case for the cops waiting another 3 seconds to see if it was an actual weapon or not. Me? I think the parents are 100% at fault here.

300 million guns "floating around"? Ok, lets start with Chicago first. It is more dangerous than a tour in Afghanistan these days, and until these "floaters" around the country are removed from the criminals and insane, the killing will go on.

"If there were only a million guns floating around...." Nope, there are more than a million law abiding gun owners in this country.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Bignugget 0]

rickjump1

*********Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

I like this sentiment.

All guns are capable of being used to kill. Even the ones that can't shoot.

You wouldn't intuitively think you could kill yourself with a plastic toy gun, but you would be wrong.

This kid proved that.


Like Masterrig said though, when you allow guns to proliferate so much you have to expect cops to shoot first, and never ask questions.

If there were only a million guns floating around instead of 300 million I could see a better case for the cops waiting another 3 seconds to see if it was an actual weapon or not. Me? I think the parents are 100% at fault here.

300 million guns "floating around"? Ok, lets start with Chicago first. It is more dangerous than a tour in Afghanistan these days, and until these "floaters" around the country are removed from the criminals and insane, the killing will go on.

"If there were only a million guns floating around...." Nope, there are more than a million law abiding gun owners in this country.

That is my point. Since there are 300 million guns floating around, and apparently Chicago is more dangerous than Afghanistan, cops shoot first, and don't worry about questions.

Solution, don't have an environment like that, and cops might not have to react the way they did.

[Backintothesky 0]

It's NOTHING to do with the number of guns floating around in the world.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that a kid was walking around with a very realistic looking toy gun.

In a country like the UK with very high gun control (compared to the US) if armed police believe you are carrying a weapon and you act in a manner that they believe is threatening, they will shoot you.

Google "Mark Duggan" - a UK man shot dead by UK armed police because they had intelligence that he was carry a weapon. When they went to stop his vehicle, according to the police's version of events, he reached down in the vehicle as if to grab something and then moved upwards in a manner consistant with someone bringing a weapon to bear on a target. So they shot him.

The moral of this story is not gun control, but to not walk around in a public place with a firearm (or toy firearm) exposed. And when armed police point their weapons at you, do exactly as they say and don't make any sudden movements that could be construed as threatening.

At the end of the day, if they don't know if the weapon is real or not then why should they wait to see if it is if that person makes threatening gestures with it? No rational human being would allow themselves to be shot first.

Bignugget

************Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

I like this sentiment.

All guns are capable of being used to kill. Even the ones that can't shoot.

You wouldn't intuitively think you could kill yourself with a plastic toy gun, but you would be wrong.

This kid proved that.


Like Masterrig said though, when you allow guns to proliferate so much you have to expect cops to shoot first, and never ask questions.

If there were only a million guns floating around instead of 300 million I could see a better case for the cops waiting another 3 seconds to see if it was an actual weapon or not. Me? I think the parents are 100% at fault here.

300 million guns "floating around"? Ok, lets start with Chicago first. It is more dangerous than a tour in Afghanistan these days, and until these "floaters" around the country are removed from the criminals and insane, the killing will go on.

"If there were only a million guns floating around...." Nope, there are more than a million law abiding gun owners in this country.

That is my point. Since there are 300 million guns floating around, and apparently Chicago is more dangerous than Afghanistan, cops shoot first, and don't worry about questions.

Solution, don't have an environment like that, and cops might not have to react the way they did.

[davjohns 1]

Been there. Done that.

I didn't find enough in the articles to allow an assessment of the sitaution.

Failure of a subject to obey verbal orders isn't decisive. I've dealt with deaf subjects, subjects that did not speak English, and mentally impaired subjects.

I don't know what is meant by the officers' report that the kid raised the gun in their direction. A one-handed move to surrender the weapon is completely different from a shouldering of the weapon to fire.

There is nothing in the articles about how long the officers have been on the street. I can tell you that my first encounter on the street went whizzing past me. After a couple of years, you seem to have plenty of time to assess a situation and choose a response.

I suspect these articles were intentionally written without more facts in order to create controversy.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[masterrig 1]

rickjump1

***Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

You're absolutely correct. That's how I was raised-up to believe.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

Bignugget

******Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

I like this sentiment.

All guns are capable of being used to kill. Even the ones that can't shoot.

You wouldn't intuitively think you could kill yourself with a plastic toy gun, but you would be wrong.

This kid proved that.


Like Masterrig said though, when you allow guns to proliferate so much you have to expect cops to shoot first, and never ask questions.

If there were only a million guns floating around instead of 300 million I could see a better case for the cops waiting another 3 seconds to see if it was an actual weapon or not.

In that 3-seconds, that cop could be dead! The description of the guns the kid had on him, the orange ends on both had been removed. Why? Did the kid want it to look real? If so, he accomplished that. Was the kid just messin' with the cops? We'll never know. All in all, the kid did the wrong thing. He should've dropped the gun like he was told. I feel bad for both the kid's family and friends as well as the cops and their families and friends. It's a painful situation. An eye witness stated that he could not tell if the subject was a kid or not. the eye witness was in close proximity of the incident, also. According to a news report.


Chuck

[seedy 0]

masterrig

.
The description of the guns the kid had on him, the orange ends on both had been removed. Why? Did the kid want it to look real? If so, he accomplished that. Was the kid just messin' with the cops? We'll never know. All in all, the kid did the wrong thing. He should've dropped the gun like he was told. I feel bad for both the kid's family and friends as well as the cops and their families and friends. It's a painful situation. An eye witness stated that he could not tell if the subject was a kid or not. the eye witness was in close proximity of the incident, also. According to a news report.

Chuck

Air soft guns have the orange tip, pellet guns don't. At least in this part of the country. My grandkids have both.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[turtlespeed 212]

champu

Something I've said before and I'll say again, at the risk of being a Monday morning quarterback...

People (and news aticles) are fast-forwarding to the point where the cops have their weapons drawn, are yelling orders, and anything other than perfect compliance means you're dead. And then they are concluding, "well yeah he turned around with what could easily be mistaken as a weapon, of course the cops did the right thing."

But can the police be doing more to avoid getting themselves into situations where shooting the person because they turn around too quickly or something is a justified response?

Sure. They could monitor from a distance. Effective Range is about 380 yards. That should be close enough to protect and serve.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[masterrig 1]

seedy

***.
The description of the guns the kid had on him, the orange ends on both had been removed. Why? Did the kid want it to look real? If so, he accomplished that. Was the kid just messin' with the cops? We'll never know. All in all, the kid did the wrong thing. He should've dropped the gun like he was told. I feel bad for both the kid's family and friends as well as the cops and their families and friends. It's a painful situation. An eye witness stated that he could not tell if the subject was a kid or not. the eye witness was in close proximity of the incident, also. According to a news report.

Chuck

Air soft guns have the orange tip, pellet guns don't. At least in this part of the country. My grandkids have both.

It must be a state to state thing. In the news articles I've read on this matter, the gun the kid had was referred to as a 'replica gun' that was supposed to have the orange ends. Bottom line is, the kid's dad or someone in the family should have instructed him in the proper care and handling of a gun.


Chuck

[Calvin19 0]

Backintothesky

It's NOTHING to do with the number of guns floating around in the world.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that a kid was walking around with a very realistic looking toy gun.

100% agree.

Even if that gun is 3/4 scale it still looks real.

Also, the main reason I posted the article was to highlight the very gross word choices. The gun is OBVIOUSLY a 'replica'. The photo shows nothing that would at first glance clearly distinguish it from a live firearm.

That is not a "toy."

[Bignugget 0]

Backintothesky

It's NOTHING to do with the number of guns floating around in the world.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that a kid was walking around with a very realistic looking toy gun.

In a country like the UK with very high gun control (compared to the US) if armed police believe you are carrying a weapon and you act in a manner that they believe is threatening, they will shoot you.

Google "Mark Duggan" - a UK man shot dead by UK armed police because they had intelligence that he was carry a weapon. When they went to stop his vehicle, according to the police's version of events, he reached down in the vehicle as if to grab something and then moved upwards in a manner consistant with someone bringing a weapon to bear on a target. So they shot him.

The moral of this story is not gun control, but to not walk around in a public place with a firearm (or toy firearm) exposed. And when armed police point their weapons at you, do exactly as they say and don't make any sudden movements that could be construed as threatening.

At the end of the day, if they don't know if the weapon is real or not then why should they wait to see if it is if that person makes threatening gestures with it? No rational human being would allow themselves to be shot first.

***************Yes it is a shitty situation. Especially for those deputies and family of the kid.


Chuck

To me, there is no such thing as a toy gun, and I don't feel I stole any part of my kids' childhood by making them treat toy guns like the real thing. Like my granddaughter, my kids grew up shooting at an early age. One is a "pistol packing momma".

I like this sentiment.

All guns are capable of being used to kill. Even the ones that can't shoot.

You wouldn't intuitively think you could kill yourself with a plastic toy gun, but you would be wrong.

This kid proved that.


Like Masterrig said though, when you allow guns to proliferate so much you have to expect cops to shoot first, and never ask questions.

If there were only a million guns floating around instead of 300 million I could see a better case for the cops waiting another 3 seconds to see if it was an actual weapon or not. Me? I think the parents are 100% at fault here.

300 million guns "floating around"? Ok, lets start with Chicago first. It is more dangerous than a tour in Afghanistan these days, and until these "floaters" around the country are removed from the criminals and insane, the killing will go on.

"If there were only a million guns floating around...." Nope, there are more than a million law abiding gun owners in this country.

That is my point. Since there are 300 million guns floating around, and apparently Chicago is more dangerous than Afghanistan, cops shoot first, and don't worry about questions.

Solution, don't have an environment like that, and cops might not have to react the way they did.

Correct me if I am wrong here.

I though UK cops didn't all carry guns.

I thought that only certain UK units were armed all the time.

Is that wrong?

It would seem to support my point if that is the case. Because they don't have 300 million guns in the hands of their citizens, they don't all walk around armed as well, and as such when they randomly stop a suspicious kid with a plastic AK, they have a lot of TIME to think about things, and position themselves safely etc, while backup arrives.

That is the whole point. 15-20 seconds of time that the cops could have spent properly evaluating the situation (while remaining safe) could have saved this kids life.

And MAYBE having the same number of guns as the UK is a good start. MAYBE that means our cops don't have to act like they do.

[champu 1]

turtlespeed

***Something I've said before and I'll say again, at the risk of being a Monday morning quarterback...

People (and news aticles) are fast-forwarding to the point where the cops have their weapons drawn, are yelling orders, and anything other than perfect compliance means you're dead. And then they are concluding, "well yeah he turned around with what could easily be mistaken as a weapon, of course the cops did the right thing."

But can the police be doing more to avoid getting themselves into situations where shooting the person because they turn around too quickly or something is a justified response?

Sure. They could monitor from a distance. Effective Range is about 380 yards. That should be close enough to protect and serve.

Oh well, I know when I'm not wanted in a thread.

[rhaig 0]

champu

Oh well, I know when I'm not wanted in a thread.

you can stay... just over there. No... further. No... a little more... keep going...

--
Rob