The only Confederate flag that mattered

[jclalor 12]

I really wish that some people would keep this in mind.

[davjohns 1]

Heh heh...

Them Yankee boys are all going for it. I think that false sense of security is just about ripe.

Of course, at this point, burning some of those Northern cities in retaliation for Atlanta would be doing you all a favor. Have you seen Detroit lately?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[turtlespeed 212]

davjohns

Heh heh...

Them Yankee boys are all going for it. I think that false sense of security is just about ripe.

Of course, at this point, burning some of those Northern cities in retaliation for Atlanta would be doing you all a favor. Have you seen Detroit lately?

Lets not forget Chicago.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DaVinci 0]

Funny, but your point?

Are you against States rights?
Are you saying slavery still exists?

[jclalor 12]

DaVinci

Funny, but your point?

Are you against States rights?
Are you saying slavery still exists?

It seems there has been a proliferation of Confederate flag waving in the last few years. Including the clown in front of the White House earlier this week waving the Stars & Bars along with the Flag of the USMC, perhaps he was was unable to see the irony. Perhaps a little more subtle than burning a cross on Obsma's front lawn, but the point was made.

Everyone's in favor of states rights until it conflicts with thier own world view. I really wouldn't mind if the south succeeded, those Red states sure are a drain on our federal resources.

[DaVinci 0]

jclalor

***Funny, but your point?

Are you against States rights?
Are you saying slavery still exists?

It seems there has been a proliferation of Confederate flag waving in the last few years. Including the clown in front of the White House earlier this week waving the Stars & Bars along with the Flag of the USMC, perhaps he was was unable to see the irony. Perhaps a little more subtle than burning a cross on Obsma's front lawn, but the point was made.

Everyone's in favor of states rights until it conflicts with thier own world view. I really wouldn't mind if the south succeeded, those Red states sure are a drain on our federal resources.

Your point is only true if you equate the confederate flag as racist.

Not saying some people don't do exactly that. But there was much more to the civil war than that. It was for sure a plank, but it was not the whole story.

[Southern_Man 0]

DaVinci

Your point is only true if you equate the confederate flag as racist.

Not saying some people don't do exactly that. But there was much more to the civil war than that. It was for sure a plank, but it was not the whole story.

Not really. You should read what the succeeding states said in their own words. Here, for example, is South Carolina:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

It really was all about slavery.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[DaVinci 0]

Southern_Man

***
Your point is only true if you equate the confederate flag as racist.

Not saying some people don't do exactly that. But there was much more to the civil war than that. It was for sure a plank, but it was not the whole story.

Not really. You should read what the succeeding states said in their own words. Here, for example, is South Carolina:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

It really was all about slavery.

Slavery was the rally point. But the real reason was States rights vs Federal powers. It took the FORM of the slavery issue. But the issue was that the States felt that the Federal Government did not have the right to over step what the States saw as their rights.

It was State vs Federal power.

Edit: From your link.

Quote

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States

[RonD1120 58]

DaVinci

******
Your point is only true if you equate the confederate flag as racist.

Not saying some people don't do exactly that. But there was much more to the civil war than that. It was for sure a plank, but it was not the whole story.

Not really. You should read what the succeeding states said in their own words. Here, for example, is South Carolina:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

It really was all about slavery.

Slavery was the rally point. But the real reason was States rights vs Federal powers. It took the FORM of the slavery issue. But the issue was that the States felt that the Federal Government did not have the right to over step what the States saw as their rights.

It was State vs Federal power.

AMEN!

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 1,648]

turtlespeed

***Heh heh...

Them Yankee boys are all going for it. I think that false sense of security is just about ripe.

Of course, at this point, burning some of those Northern cities in retaliation for Atlanta would be doing you all a favor. Have you seen Detroit lately?

Lets not forget Chicago.

Too much water.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,148]

But the issue they cared enough about to actually go to war over was slavery. Nothing else was particularly close. Yes, it was a gummint issue, but without slavery it would have been supremely unlikely to have happened.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[muff528 3]

DaVinci

....."the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States"

Never mind that citizens of the slave (and non-slave!) states, south and north, frequently violated the Constitutional rights of actual people for most of a century. (...and beyond). The Rights of the People are unalienable ...not the rights of the states.

[sfzombie13 307]

wendy, you're putting the issue onto slavery when it wasn't, but it's a common mistake. several reasons are the root of it.

1 financial. it would be cost prohibitive to actually pay the labor force the plantations are built on. this is the strongest reason. people ignore the reason for slaves, it's to make money or save money, not just to have entertainment. they have to actually do something for you.

2 the feel good factor. look at bullies today, they get a kick out of it. imagine if you had a whole race of people and no matter what, you were better than them because you were white.

3 separation. it still exists today, especially with politicians. they use the "our side is good, they're evil" tactic to polarize us. this time it was clear; not much luck hiding your skin color.

people forget about the reasons behind slavery and focus on the thing itself. and they also have a tendency to use today's standards to judge actions in the past. some things are obvious, some not. just try to analyze everything from all angles; even hitler had some good ideas, at least to one country.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Southern_Man 0]

DaVinci

******
Your point is only true if you equate the confederate flag as racist.

Not saying some people don't do exactly that. But there was much more to the civil war than that. It was for sure a plank, but it was not the whole story.

Not really. You should read what the succeeding states said in their own words. Here, for example, is South Carolina:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

It really was all about slavery.

Slavery was the rally point. But the real reason was States rights vs Federal powers. It took the FORM of the slavery issue. But the issue was that the States felt that the Federal Government did not have the right to over step what the States saw as their rights.

It was State vs Federal power.

Edit: From your link.

Quote

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States

Yes, the frequent violations they were concerned about were the failure of the Northern States to return fugitive slaves. Article IV Section 2 Clause 3.

It is all in there.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[davjohns 1]

I'm not a historian, but I've read a fair bit on this subject. The US Civil War is very popular with US Army Officers for study.

As I understand it, the Southern states were using their cotton to get excellent deals with Europe on goods that directly competed with Northern goods. Northern states attempted to thwart this with import restrictions and tarrifs. At the same time, the abolitionist movement sought to undermine the financial underpinning of the Southern agrarian system. The Southern states left.

After two years of war, the North was sick of it. They were not doing well. They had anticipated a very short skirmish before returning to normal. Lincoln was a devout believer in a federal government. He turned to the abolitionists to provide a moral pupose for his war. They responded. The information campaign that followed rallied the North and continued the war for a purpose it didn't really start out with.

Today, we are taught in school that it was about slavery. Part of that is left over from the post-war abuse of the South that was so prevalent. Part of it is because it's hard to teach anyone that the root of most all wars is money.

The people on this forum are adults...regardless of how some act. It's time to admit that wars are almost always about money. Pretending wars were morally just in the past is just silly.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[davjohns 1]

DaVinci

******Funny, but your point?

Are you against States rights?
Are you saying slavery still exists?

It seems there has been a proliferation of Confederate flag waving in the last few years. Including the clown in front of the White House earlier this week waving the Stars & Bars along with the Flag of the USMC, perhaps he was was unable to see the irony. Perhaps a little more subtle than burning a cross on Obsma's front lawn, but the point was made.

Everyone's in favor of states rights until it conflicts with thier own world view. I really wouldn't mind if the south succeeded, those Red states sure are a drain on our federal resources.

Your point is only true if you equate the confederate flag as racist.

Not saying some people don't do exactly that. But there was much more to the civil war than that. It was for sure a plank, but it was not the whole story.

Just a personal perspective from someone who grew up in Birmingham, Alabama...

The Stars and Bars was about tradition, history, and being Southern when I was growing up. Blacks flew it and wore it as much as anyone. I was friends with whoever my friends were. Color just wasn't important. We were fairly colorblind as far as I can recall. The General Lee wore her colors proudly and there was nothing racist about it. Just good ol' boys. Never meanin' no harm.

Then entered the fear mongers. People started making money by drawing lines between the races. The meaning of symbols were changed by people who wanted something to rally hate. Racism got much worse. I can barely communicate with some of my old friends. They seem to have a problem with my skin color.

We are not better off today.

Just the view from my foxhole.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[jgoose71 0]

davjohns

Just a personal perspective from someone who grew up in Birmingham, Alabama...

The Stars and Bars was about tradition, history, and being Southern when I was growing up. Blacks flew it and wore it as much as anyone. I was friends with whoever my friends were. Color just wasn't important. We were fairly colorblind as far as I can recall. The General Lee wore her colors proudly and there was nothing racist about it. Just good ol' boys. Never meanin' no harm.

Then entered the fear mongers. People started making money by drawing lines between the races. The meaning of symbols were changed by people who wanted something to rally hate. Racism got much worse. I can barely communicate with some of my old friends. They seem to have a problem with my skin color.

We are not better off today.

Just the view from my foxhole.

To some people you will never convince them that the "Stars and Bars" are about anything but racism and slavery.

I'm not sure if it's because of brain-washing or the fact that there is an entire industry built around race-baiting now a days.

But either way, it took living in the south for a while to understand that there is an entire way of life that some one from the south can identify with. From southern hospitality, to southern cooking. The out-door activities and just some general views on life.

Only someone from the south knows the proper way to cook a sweet-potato pie with the proper 5 sticks of real butter.

But no, ask any liberal and they will be sure to tell you how Mississippi just finally managed to end slavery earlier this year, and me forgetting to go buy a house slave really quickly before the markets were finally shut down last February...

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[wmw999 2,148]

I understand that it was really over the way of life, but that way of life was only possible because of slavery. The connection to me is too strong to ignore.

The basic construct of the US is an associated group of states; the associated nature has gotten stronger over the years (in part due to better and better transportation and communications), which has lessened the separate nature of the states. We may have gone too far in that direction, but it could also be that technology, and not an evil overlord, is the primary cause.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[winsor 187]

jgoose71

***
Just a personal perspective from someone who grew up in Birmingham, Alabama...

The Stars and Bars was about tradition, history, and being Southern when I was growing up. Blacks flew it and wore it as much as anyone. I was friends with whoever my friends were. Color just wasn't important. We were fairly colorblind as far as I can recall. The General Lee wore her colors proudly and there was nothing racist about it. Just good ol' boys. Never meanin' no harm.

Then entered the fear mongers. People started making money by drawing lines between the races. The meaning of symbols were changed by people who wanted something to rally hate. Racism got much worse. I can barely communicate with some of my old friends. They seem to have a problem with my skin color.

We are not better off today.

Just the view from my foxhole.

To some people you will never convince them that the "Stars and Bars" are about anything but racism and slavery.

I'm not sure if it's because of brain-washing or the fact that there is an entire industry built around race-baiting now a days.

But either way, it took living in the south for a while to understand that there is an entire way of life that some one from the south can identify with. From southern hospitality, to southern cooking. The out-door activities and just some general views on life.

Only someone from the south knows the proper way to cook a sweet-potato pie with the proper 5 sticks of real butter.

But no, ask any liberal and they will be sure to tell you how Mississippi just finally managed to end slavery earlier this year, and me forgetting to go buy a house slave really quickly before the markets were finally shut down last February...

The flag that gets people upset is, of course, the Battle Flag of the CSA.

The Stars and Bars, the National Flag of the CSA, is a completely different animal.

By and large, the people who do not know the difference between the two, or its significance, are those who have adopted the revisionist view of the conflict.

Abhorrent though the institution of slavery is, and flashpoint issue though it may have been, the reason for secession and the ensuing war was money.

After the Emancipation Proclamation there were Yankee Generals who still legally owned slaves in the U.S., since it did not apply to slave states that had not seceded. A significant portion of Federal troops and citizens did not view slaves as human, and they were referred to as "contraband" when freed.

A study of history reveals that popular accounts of various conflicts are little more than formalized versions of propaganda generated while the war still raged. One must take care not to believe one's own lies.


BSBD,

Winsor

[rickjump1 0]

jclalor

***Funny, but your point?

Are you against States rights?
Are you saying slavery still exists?

It seems there has been a proliferation of Confederate flag waving in the last few years. Including the clown in front of the White House earlier this week waving the Stars & Bars along with the Flag of the USMC, perhaps he was was unable to see the irony. Perhaps a little more subtle than burning a cross on Obsma's front lawn, but the point was made.

Everyone's in favor of states rights until it conflicts with thier own world view. I really wouldn't mind if the south succeeded, those Red states sure are a drain on our federal resources. You're not the only person with this view: http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/10/call-civil-war/ :A Call for Secession & If Necessary Civil War
Funny thing, people are leaving the Detroit's, Chicago's, and California's and heading......guess where?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Never mind that citizens of the slave (and non-slave!) states, south and north, frequently violated the Constitutional rights of actual people for most of a century. (...and beyond). The Rights of the People are unalienable ...not the rights of the states.

You are still trying to make it into something it was not. The Constitution did not see slaves as people. As revolting as we can look at that today (and as some did even back then). The Constitution was written as it was written. It has since been amended to correct the errors... As it should have.

But even the Supreme Court in Dredd agreed with the Constitution at the time.

And NONE of this changes the reason for the civil war. You can claim it was because of slavery, but that is just not true...

The Civil War was about States rights issues. Slavery was the catalyst, but not the reason. The southern States wanted to run the States the way they wanted and for the Federal Government to stay out of the States issues.

If someone tried slavery NOW, the 13th Amendment would make it a Federal issue, but the 13th did not exist till AFTER the war.

I fail to see how this is a difficult concept. I can only assume that slavery is so evil to us that we just assume it was THE reason and not just the issue that was rallied around.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

The Stars and Bars was about tradition, history, and being Southern when I was growing up. Blacks flew it and wore it as much as anyone. I was friends with whoever my friends were. Color just wasn't important. We were fairly colorblind as far as I can recall. The General Lee wore her colors proudly and there was nothing racist about it. Just good ol' boys. Never meanin' no harm.

Then entered the fear mongers. People started making money by drawing lines between the races. The meaning of symbols were changed by people who wanted something to rally hate. Racism got much worse. I can barely communicate with some of my old friends. They seem to have a problem with my skin color.

We are not better off today.

It is as you describe in my opinion as well... The problem is that some groups have also adopted the CSA battle flag as "theirs". This does not help the issue. But the fact still remains that the war was about States Rights and slavery was just the push.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

I understand that it was really over the way of life, but that way of life was only possible because of slavery. The connection to me is too strong to ignore.

But it is not ignoring it to correctly state the real reason. Slavery was the push, but the *reason* was the Southern States didn't like the Federal Govt telling them what they were going to do. It was against the Constitution.

Quote

The basic construct of the US is an associated group of states; the associated nature has gotten stronger over the years (in part due to better and better transportation and communications), which has lessened the separate nature of the states. We may have gone too far in that direction, but it could also be that technology, and not an evil overlord, is the primary cause

I think it is greed. Look at the Whiskey Rebellion. It was about a tax to pay war debts and increasing the Govts power. Washington himself rode against the rebellion (making him the only sitting President to lead troops, IIRC).

Then came the Civil War where a President basically forced the States to follow federal decree. Then came FDR.

While there is no doubt that technology plays a role... These all happened long before serious leaps in technology and they all took power away from the States.

[Southern_Man 0]

DaVinci

And NONE of this changes the reason for the civil war. You can claim it was because of slavery, but that is just not true...

The Civil War was about States rights issues. Slavery was the catalyst, but not the reason. The southern States wanted to run the States the way they wanted and for the Federal Government to stay out of the States issues.

Again, it is only possible to argue this if you ignore what the states themselves said about their reasons for succession.

Let's try Mississppi now: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery"

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Southern_Man 0]

Georgia: http://www.civilwar.com/resources/government/confederate-states-of-america-government-documents/148334-declaration-of-secession-georgia.html

"For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property"

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"