Blackfish

[labrys 0]

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I personally learn a lot more watching Discovery specials about the animal kingdom than I ever did visiting the zoo. I think they may have served a nice educational purpose 50 years ago, when without a zoo the majority of people would never see non-native animals. That is just not the case in 2013 when we can experience them in their natural habitat thanks to technology.

My personal opinion is different. While I do wish very much that zoos could have much larger habitats for most animals, I don't think that putting a six year old in front of a television to watch lions in the Serengeti instills the same awe and awareness in them that being 6 inches from a lion in the zoo does. I've seen that look of wonder many, many times because I visit my local zoo once a week or more. It's a nice place to take a walk.

I think that the personal connection that zoo programs build for kids have value. It might make them interested in learning more from the discovery channel when they're a little older.

Owned by Remi #?

[linebckr83 3]

SkyDekker

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When the only exposure people have to animals is watching them through a glass wall, it's hard to make the connection to what their lives are like in the wild. Even the best zoos don't provide a normal life for the animals. Circuses are nothing but systemitized animal crualty. IMHO the only reason they are allowed at all is tradition

How is this any different from owning a home aquarium, a dog, cat, bird, etc?

Why is it ok to kill tuna, but not dolphin. Why is it fine to capture and kill mice, but not capture and keep alive a lion?

Because puppies and kitties and baby tigers are cute!

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[kelpdiver 2]

DanG

Even the best zoos don't provide a normal life for the animals.

but in more than a few instances, give a better life than the outside world. From a lifespan and species preservation perspective, zoos and zoo like structures have enable many animals to still exist today.

we need to think beyond a simplistic notion of zoos equal bad. And there's little doubt that humans develop a greater level of 'giving a shit' about things they see in person. Stuff on TV has nowhere near the same impact.

[DanG 1]

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How is this any different from owning a home aquarium, a dog, cat, bird, etc?

I have no problem with aquariums. Fish, in my opinion, are not really sentient. Having a pet dog or cat is fine by me, too, provided you treat the animal with the respect it deserves. Having a dog on a chain in the yard is not ethical pet ownership. My dogs are companions, and treated like members of the family. I don't think people should own birds. That makes me sad, and I believe it makes the birds sad, too.

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Why is it ok to kill tuna, but not dolphin.

Dolphins are sentient, intelligent creatures. Tuna are not.

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Why is it fine to capture and kill mice, but not capture and keep alive a lion?

Killing mice is regrettable, but necessary for health reasons. I kill mice that invade my home. I don't go out of the way to kill them for no reason. I also try to kill them quickly and painlessly. I see no connection with that and removing a lion from the wild and putting it a cage.

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

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but in more than a few instances, give a better life than the outside world. From a lifespan and species preservation perspective, zoos and zoo like structures have enable many animals to still exist today.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "better". Sure, facilities that are providing rehab to injured animals, or trying to repopulate a dying species, or other noble goals can do great good. Those aren't the places we're talking about.

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we need to think beyond a simplistic notion of zoos equal bad. And there's little doubt that humans develop a greater level of 'giving a shit' about things they see in person. Stuff on TV has nowhere near the same impact.

I disagree. If you can stomach it, visit a primate house sometime. The kids teasing the gorillas through the glass are not learning to give a shit.

- Dan G

[Bignugget 0]

labrys

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I personally learn a lot more watching Discovery specials about the animal kingdom than I ever did visiting the zoo. I think they may have served a nice educational purpose 50 years ago, when without a zoo the majority of people would never see non-native animals. That is just not the case in 2013 when we can experience them in their natural habitat thanks to technology.

My personal opinion is different. While I do wish very much that zoos could have much larger habitats for most animals, I don't think that putting a six year old in front of a television to watch lions in the Serengeti instills the same awe and awareness in them that being 6 inches from a lion in the zoo does. I've seen that look of wonder many, many times because I visit my local zoo once a week or more. It's a nice place to take a walk.

I think that the personal connection that zoo programs build for kids have value. It might make them interested in learning more from the discovery channel when they're a little older.

Point taken. I grew up in Saint Louis, and my mom took me to the zoo a lot as a kid. Maybe that is where my love of animals developed, hard to pinpoint that sort of stuff for me. Where something started etc. but it is certainly plausible my zoo visits as a kid helped develop it.

Now that I am grown and aware they are thinking creatures just like us, and see them just pacing back and forth like 'caged animals' ironically enough, it just makes me cynical and sad.

Watching stuff that is just observation of them in the wild has so much more spirit and energy. At least for me.

But I do see your point.

[Bignugget 0]

kelpdiver

*** Even the best zoos don't provide a normal life for the animals.

but in more than a few instances, give a better life than the outside world. From a lifespan and species preservation perspective, zoos and zoo like structures have enable many animals to still exist today.

we need to think beyond a simplistic notion of zoos equal bad. And there's little doubt that humans develop a greater level of 'giving a shit' about things they see in person. Stuff on TV has nowhere near the same impact.


Well, in the 'Blackfish' documentary they talk about the lifespan of the killer whale.

All of the seaworld spokespeople are saying its 25-35 years in captivity. And that they live SIGNIFICANTLY longer in captivity due to the vet care and all the great things they get.


The reality is in the wild they live normal human length lifespans 60ish years, without stellar seaworld vet care amazingly enough manage to live 2x longer than in captivity.


They also talk about how ~25% of all killer whales dorsal fins flop over.

Truth is MOST captive males and some females have collapsed fins, while less than 1% of wild killer whales have collapsed dorsal fins, and those are normally caused by trauma, unlike the captive ones.


That's sad shit.

Generally I am not a fan of doing some evil to get some good done.

[kelpdiver 2]

DanG

I disagree. If you can stomach it, visit a primate house sometime. The kids teasing the gorillas through the glass are not learning to give a shit.

Some kids, sure. And the others?

Where do you think all the kids come from that want to be marine biologists when they grow up?

For that matter, is it a coincidence that wide spread support for protecting sharks came after shark dives were common?

[rifleman 61]

Have a look at this place. One of the best rehab centres for primates going. They take everything from chimps used as beach photographers props to smaller monkeys used in research labs.

http://www.monkeyworld.org/

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[DanG 1]

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For that matter, is it a coincidence that wide spread support for protecting sharks came after shark dives were common?

Sharks dives at the zoo?

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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I have no problem with aquariums. Fish, in my opinion, are not really sentient. Having a pet dog or cat is fine by me, too, provided you treat the animal with the respect it deserves. Having a dog on a chain in the yard is not ethical pet ownership. My dogs are companions, and treated like members of the family. I don't think people should own birds. That makes me sad, and I believe it makes the birds sad, too.

That comment comes across as very hyprocrital with regard to animal ownership for human benefit.

[DanG 1]

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That comment comes across as very hyprocrital with regard to animal ownership for human benefit.

How so?

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Because you are ok with ownership of animals you agree with, but not ok with ownership of animals you don't agree with.

One you deem cruel, the other you deem just fine. Then you go further and pars it by animal, or class of animal.

[Darius11 12]

I am with Skydekker here but on this


you said

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My dogs are companions, and treated like members of the family.

Yea but the reason they are the way they are is because we have been subjugating dogs to the point where we genetically modify them for our benefit. That doesn’t make it right it just means we have been doing it for a very long time.
I understand it’s symbiotic but maybe so is a dolphin doping a flip for a fish?
I don’t know just playing with your logic here not mine.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

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Because you are ok with ownership of animals you agree with, but not ok with ownership of animals you don't agree with.

One you deem cruel, the other you deem just fine. Then you go further and pars it by animal, or class of animal.

All animals are not created equal. Ants do not get the same treatment as puppies. Please also keep in mind that humans are animals, too. We're just particularly smart. If you're going to argue that all animals are equal, then you need to include humans in that equation.

Fish and insects are barely above plants on the intelligence scale. Reptile are just a little above fish. I do not believe, and there are at least some studies that confirm, that they don't really have what you or I would consider thoughts. I'm okay with treating them little better than plants. I don't go out of my way to kill them, and I would never harm them for enjoyment, but I don't have a problem eating them, or farming them.

Mammals and birds are intelligent, and are capable of thought. They should be treated differently. Why I find it okay to own a dog or cat, but not a bird is because I've never run across a bird that looked like it enjoyed captivity. Dogs, cats, and humans have developed sybiotic relationships. Modern dogs can't survive in the wild except as scavengers of human trash. Cats can survive in the wild, but clearly thrive when in a human home. I can see how you think my views are hypocritical, but it all comes back to the fact that all animals are not created equal.

- Dan G

[kelpdiver 2]

DanG

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For that matter, is it a coincidence that wide spread support for protecting sharks came after shark dives were common?

Sharks dives at the zoo?

As stated previously, people develop a stronger attachment to things experienced personally, rather than on TV.

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Fish and insects are barely above plants on the intelligence scale.

To broadly categorize the entirety of fish this way is pretty low on the scale. Maybe you've never seen it in person?

[DanG 1]

You didn't answer my question. Are you talking about shark dives at a zoo, or in open water? I'm aware that some aquariums let a very few people dive in their tanks, but I didn't know that the practice was widespread. If you're talking about open water, I fail to see how that is applicable to our discussion about zoos.

And while not an experienced diver like you, I've swam with sharks in open water a number of times. I've snorkled with nurse sharks and reef sharks in the Bahamas and off Belize. Nothing I saw led me to believe they were intelligent to the level of a mammal, but I could certainly be wrong about that.

- Dan G

[kelpdiver 2]

DanG

You didn't answer my question. Are you talking about shark dives at a zoo, or in open water? I'm aware that some aquariums let a very few people dive in their tanks, but I didn't know that the practice was widespread. If you're talking about open water, I fail to see how that is applicable to our discussion about zoos.

It's applicable to the thesis being put out that 'people give a shit about things they directly experience, be it at the zoo, or elsewhere.'

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And while not an experienced diver like you, I've swam with sharks in open water a number of times. I've snorkled with nurse sharks and reef sharks in the Bahamas and off Belize. Nothing I saw led me to believe they were intelligent to the level of a mammal, but I could certainly be wrong about that.

You said "fish are barely more intelligent than plants." Goldfish may be petunia like, but predators show considerably more intelligence. And if you've ever seen sharks, tuna, and dolphins coordinate a bait ball feast, those aren't plants either.

[DanG 1]

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It's applicable to the thesis being put out that 'people give a shit about things they directly experience, be it at the zoo, or elsewhere.'

I'm all for people experiencing wildlife. I don't think watch wildlife through a glass wall is the same thing as experiencing it in person. Diving with sharks on a reef is not the same as going to a zoo. I went to my share of zoos and aquariums as a kid. I didn't really gain an appreciation for aquatic life until I started snorkling. Keep in mind, you ascribed "all zoos = evil" to me. I've never said anything of the sort.

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You said "fish are barely more intelligent than plants." Goldfish may be petunia like, but predators show considerably more intelligence. And if you've ever seen sharks, tuna, and dolphins coordinate a bait ball feast, those aren't plants either.

I've never seen that. Sounds awesome. Dolphins are clearly intelligent. They are also not fish. Are you sure the tuna and sharks are really coordinating with the dolphins, or are they just reacting to the presence of another predator?

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 212]

linebckr83

***Thoughts?

Found it equally as disturbing as "The Cove".

If it's anything like The Cove, I have no interest. That is NOT a documentary to watch if you have any kind of love for dolphins...horrible.

Like this!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun