Is he a whistle blower or traitor?

[Darius11 12]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/is-he-a-whistle-blower-or-traitor-20130601-2nigm.html

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Hailed a courageous whistleblower and reviled as a common traitor, Bradley Manning, the young US soldier who provided WikiLeaks with more than 250,000 pages of secret documents, finally faces a military court on Monday.

Manning has already pleaded guilty to 10 of 22 charges regarding information he passed on to WikiLeaks, and faces up to 20 years in prison, but he has denied the more serious charges under the Espionage Act, for which he could be imprisoned for life.

Interest in the trial and its legal ramifications is huge. Julian Assange, the Australian founder of WikiLeaks, will be closely watching from his refuge in the Ecuador embassy in London, where he is avoiding arrest by British police seeking to extradite him to Sweden to answer sexual misconduct allegations.

Assange's lawyers say that, from Sweden, he risks being passed on to US authorities to face conspiracy charges relating to Manning's leak.

In the US, freedom of speech campaigners, including Daniel Ellsberg who, in 1971, leaked the infamous Pentagon Papers, have backed Manning as a victim of government overreach.

The Australian embassy is also keenly interested in the trial and its potential impact on Assange. Last month, Fairfax Media reported that a senior Australian embassy officer had attended pre-trial hearings at Fort Meade and made detailed reports to Australia's Department of Foreign Affairs.

Despite Assange's fears, Foreign Affairs Minister Bob Carr has said he does not believe Assange is the target of a US extradition effort. ''Julian Assange could have been the subject of extradition action by the US any time in the past two years, when he's been residing in the UK. He wasn't. To suggest that the Swedes are after him, as a CIA conspiracy, to get him to Stockholm and allowing him to be bundled off to Langley, Virginia, is sheer fantasy,'' Carr has told the ABC.


Asked by the online organisation Democracy Now for a response to this on Wednesday, Assange declared: ''Bob Carr is a well-known liar in Australian politics. The man's ignorance is only eclipsed by his arrogance.''

He said by its own admission, the US Department of Justice still had an active investigation of ''unprecedented scale and nature'' into the leaks. The department did not return calls from Fairfax Media.

In the case against Manning, the prosecution is arguing that, because he leaked material to WikiLeaks, and because he would have known that al-Qaeda could have read them once published, he in effect communicated with the enemy. This assertion has become crucial to the case.

In a New York Times opinion piece, two of the best-known champions of the first amendment right to freedom of speech, Floyd Abrams and Yochai Benkler, wrote that, should this assertion be accepted, no media outlet could safely publish leaked material.

''The extreme charges remaining in this case create a severe threat to future whistle blowers … We cannot allow our concerns about terrorism to turn us into a country where communicating with the press can be prosecuted as a capital offence,'' they wrote.

The Los Angeles Times wrote in an editorial that the government's claims were ''ominously broad''.

''By the government's logic, The New York Times could be accused of aiding the enemy if bin Laden possessed a copy of the newspaper that included the WikiLeaks material it published.''

On the other hand, Walter Pincus - a Polk, Emmy and Pulitzer prize winner - argued that those who leaked sensitive information that did not reveal government misdeeds but nonetheless harmed it were not whistle blowing, but simply breaking the law.

In a pre-trial statement, Manning said he leaked the information - particularly the ''collateral murder video'' that showed reporters and civilians being gunned down by an attack helicopter's cannon - in the public interest.

''The most alarming aspect of the video to me was the seemingly delightful bloodlust they appeared to have,'' Manning said. ''They dehumanised the individuals they were engaging and seemed to not value human life by referring to them as, quote, 'dead bastards', unquote, and congratulating each other on the ability to kill in large numbers.''

He said the military incident reports he leaked ''represented the on-the-ground reality of both the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan''.

''I felt that we were risking so much for people that seemed unwilling to co-operate with us, leading to frustration and anger on both sides,'' Manning said. ''I began to become depressed with the situation that we found ourselves increasingly mired in year after year.''

Of the cache of more than 250,000 US State Department cables, Manning said: ''The more I read, the more I was fascinated by the way that we dealt with other nations and organisations. I also began to think that the documented back-door deals and seemingly criminal activity didn't seem characteristic of the de facto leader of the free world.''

The trial is expected to last more than two months and will be presided over by Colonel Denise Lind, the chief judge of the Army's 1st Judicial Circuit. Manning has elected to forgo a jury, which would have been made up of either officers or a mixture of officers and enlisted men at his request.

Manning's decision not to have his case heard by a jury has led to speculation his lawyers believe a military jury will not be sympathetic to a man many regard as a traitor. Even P.J. Crowley, the State Department official forced to resign for criticising the military's allegedly harsh treatment of Manning in custody, said: ''A private first class does not get to decide whether a conversation between a high-level US official and the king of a Gulf nation should be made public."

The prosecution is expected to call on a member of SEAL Team Six, the unit that killed Osama bin Laden, to testify that he seized digitised WikiLeaks documents during the raid, as evidence that al-Qaeda did benefit from the leaks.

One expert in US military justice, Major General John Altenburg, said simply proving that US enemies had accessed the information he leaked would not be enough to secure a conviction on the espionage charges. ''Intent is difficult to prove. The jury and judge must draw inferences from the evidence.''

The trial begins at a time when President Barack Obama is facing criticism for his administration's secretiveness and heavy-handedness in hunting down leaks and their sources.

Last month it was revealed the Department of Justice had secretly obtained the phone records of up to 100 Associated Press reporters in one leak investigation, and labelled a well-regarded Washington DC-based Fox News reporter as a potential espionage co-conspirator in another.

In a recent speech, Obama said he was ''troubled'' by the investigations. ''Journalists should not be at legal risk for doing their jobs,'' he said. ''Our focus must be on those who break the law.''

But he added that, unless there were consequences for revealing secrets, there was little point in holding them at all.

I hope people realize how important this case is for the freedoms we hold dear. There is a huge picture here which everyone should see.
He will be a hero in 20 years and the people who prosecuted him the villains. It would be nice if we would learn so we do not have to wait decades to realize this.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[RonD1120 58]

Traitor, pure and simple. He released classified information because he was PO'd at the Army and that makes him a traitor. He acted on his on volition and he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Kennedy 0]

Traitor. If he wanted to be a whistleblower he would have gone to congress or federal law enforcent. Instead he leaked information he hasn't even read to some asshole who likes publishing secrets (but gets pissed when someone publishes his).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[champu 1]

I've shared my opinion on this several times years ago but in short, I don't believe Manning should be allowed to hide behind the "whistle blower" moniker. It's my opinion that while his motivation was not to specifically aid a given enemy, it was also not simply to uncover a select injustice.

[sfzombie13 307]

traitor. without a doubt. when you join the military, you give up some specific things. for example, you can't hold political office, you can't travel wherever you want whenever you want, and a lot of other things. one of which is providing classified documents to anyone without the proper security clearance. while i am not an expert, i am pretty sure wikileaks was not cleared to receive them.

i feel he should be tried as a spy and shot. it was a crime committed in wartime, so it fits.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[livendive 8]

champu

I've shared my opinion on this several times years ago but in short, I don't believe Manning should be allowed to hide behind the "whistle blower" moniker. It's my opinion that while his motivation was not to specifically aid a given enemy, it was also not simply to uncover a select injustice.

This.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[wmw999 2,136]

I agree. It's not as traitorish as giving it in secret to the enemy without our guys knowing it, but it's by no means whistleblowing. Had he told US newspapers about sexual harrassment it would have been whistleblowing; this wasn't.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Darius11 12]

wmw999

I agree. It's not as traitorish as giving it in secret to the enemy without our guys knowing it, but it's by no means whistleblowing. Had he told US newspapers about sexual harrassment it would have been whistleblowing; this wasn't.

Wendy P.

So showing our solders murdering civilians things that would have otherwise not been shown, exposing war crimes is not whistle blowing?

I think people are pretending to know what his options were when they don't, and people also are under the impression that if these actions were broth to a supervisors something would have been done.

I don't agree with either of those assumptions. I know the military will hide most actions that will show us in a bad light so will the politicians. IF you look at other documentaries "this is what wining looks like" comes to mind just because I recently watched it you will see how a blind eye is turned to many things.

To me he exposed war crimes the only way he could, to a source he trusted would go public with it.
I also do not believe for one second that the government would have come forward with any of the things he exposed willingly.

To me he is a hero and he has spent over a 1000 days in solitary confinement.

The other important issue is this. If the judge decides that yes leaking information that can be seen by enemies of the state is considered treason then bye bye freedom of the press, what's left of it any way.
I do not think that's good for any freedom loving person. If things are made public that means the public including enemies will have access to it. You should not go to jail forthat IMO

That's the bigger picture.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[champu 1]

The leak of the video of the helicopter incident in Iraq and the leak of the cables were two seperate events. I'll refer you to yet another years old post that I stand by.

I've heard it all before and I could do this all day.

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

If he had only leaked things like the video of the heli shooting (which wasn't as improper as a lot of people would like to think), then the "whistleblower" defense might be a bit more appropriate.

But he didn't restrict the info he leaked to that sort of thing. It was everything he could get his hands on, including the names of local people working for the US Army, which put their lives and the lives of their families in very real and very grave danger.

And I don't see at all how this would have a chilling effect on the press. The people who published it aren't being prosecuted. The person being prosecuted is the one who leaked it, who had signed security agreements that specified punishments for these kind of leaks.

I don't see him as a traitor, but he should spend a good long time in Leavenworth or somewhere similar.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rickjump1 0]

RonD1120

Traitor, pure and simple. He released classified information because he was PO'd at the Army and that makes him a traitor. He acted on his on volition and he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

DITTO.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[livendive 8]

If whistleblowing was his goal, he should have followed 10 USC 1034

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(a) Restricting Communications With Members of Congress and Inspector General Prohibited.—
(1)No person may restrict a member of the armed forces in communicating with a Member of Congress or an Inspector General.

(2)Paragraph (1) does not apply to a communication that is unlawful.

(b) Prohibition of Retaliatory Personnel Actions.—
(1)No person may take (or threaten to take) an unfavorable personnel action, or withhold (or threaten to withhold) a favorable personnel action, as a reprisal against a member of the armed forces for making or preparing—
(A)a communication to a Member of Congress or an Inspector General that (under subsection (a)) may not be restricted; or

(B)a communication that is described in subsection (c)(2) and that is made (or prepared to be made) to—
(i)a Member of Congress;

(ii)an Inspector General (as defined in subsection (i)) or any other Inspector General appointed under the Inspector General Act of 1978;

(iii)a member of a Department of Defense audit, inspection, investigation, or law enforcement organization;

(iv)any person or organization in the chain of command; or

(v)any other person or organization designated pursuant to regulations or other established administrative procedures for such communications.

(2)Any action prohibited by paragraph (1) (including the threat to take any unfavorable action and the withholding or threat to withhold any favorable action) shall be considered for the purposes of this section to be a personnel action prohibited by this subsection.
...

If he tried all that and was ignored, he might have an argument that going to the public was his only remaining option, but going to wikileaks first...not so much.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[sfzombie13 307]

Darius11

So showing our solders murdering civilians things that would have otherwise not been shown, exposing war crimes is not whistle blowing?....

I think people are pretending to know what his options were when they don't, and people also are under the impression that if these actions were broth to a supervisors something would have been done....

To me he is a hero and he has spent over a 1000 days in solitary confinement.

have you ever been in the military? with that kind of attitude toward honor, integrity, and commitment, i seriously hope not. he took an oath, signed away a lot of rights and gave up a lot of freedoms. just like every other soldier/airmen/marine/sailor. he is held to the same standards. he is governed by the same rules. if the military did not have these rules, it would be impossible to uphold the kind of discipline it takes to go to combat.
when i was in, i went to combat twice. the things i learned while in the army still serve me well to this day.
fuck this piss ant, he needs to be shot

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[ayevee8toryear 0]

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Traitor,

He is a soldier and he has sworn to protect the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic.

The enemies of the constitution at present are domestic and they are within the office of government.

The President is a traitor, he lies to us all and should be impeached.

So should the assholes that were making Swiss cheese out of the reporters that were simply taking photos, while laughing about it.

I suppose they were hero's in your book?

If there was any such thing as justice, Bradley Manning would receive a full pardon and all the war criminals would be punished to the full extent of the law.

Unfortunately it seems as if neither of those things will ever happen.

He is being used as an example.

[RonD1120 58]

sfzombie13

***


So showing our solders murdering civilians things that would have otherwise not been shown, exposing war crimes is not whistle blowing?....

I think people are pretending to know what his options were when they don't, and people also are under the impression that if these actions were broth to a supervisors something would have been done....

To me he is a hero and he has spent over a 1000 days in solitary confinement.

have you ever been in the military? with that kind of attitude toward honor, integrity, and commitment, i seriously hope not. he took an oath, signed away a lot of rights and gave up a lot of freedoms. just like every other soldier/airmen/marine/sailor. he is held to the same standards. he is governed by the same rules. if the military did not have these rules, it would be impossible to uphold the kind of discipline it takes to go to combat.
when i was in, i went to combat twice. the things i learned while in the army still serve me well to this day.
fuck this piss ant, he needs to be shot

Don't sugar coat it. Tell us how you really feel.

There have been two systems of living in my life that have sustained me in chaos. Chronologically, the first is my military training and the second is my Christian walk.

I support your position.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Kennedy 0]

ayevee8toryear

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Traitor,

He is a soldier and he has sworn to protect the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic.

The enemies of the constitution at present are domestic and they are within the office of government.

The President is a traitor, he lies to us all and should be impeached.

So should the assholes that were making Swiss cheese out of the reporters that were simply taking photos, while laughing about it.

I suppose they were hero's in your book?

If there was any such thing as justice, Bradley Manning would receive a full pardon and all the war criminals would be punished to the full extent of the law.

Unfortunately it seems as if neither of those things will ever happen.

He is being used as an example.

Did he try anymore the legal ways of reporting what he saw as illegal conduct? Did he talk to investigators, superiors, or congressmen? No. He went to some asshole.

Did he only expose what he saw as illegal conduct? No. He spilled every secret he could get his hands on.

That's not blowing the whistle. That's breaking every oath he ever took.

Oh, and that "enemies foreign or domestic" bit? You may want to consider the entire text. I guess you, like Manning, forgot about the obeying orders and following the UCMJ parts.

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"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[ayevee8toryear 0]

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Oh, and that "enemies foreign or domestic" bit? You may want to consider the entire text. I guess you, like Manning, forgot about the obeying orders and following the UCMJ parts.

Based on the reports that have come from the several illegal wars that we are currently engaged in (no declaration of war), the Guantanamo should be quite packed right now eh?

why is the book thrown so hard in this case?

His superiors are arming Al Qaeda allies openly at present are they not?

Why were the shooters in the 'collateral murder' video not punished?

[SkyCoi 0]

Traitor. Anyone who has ever been in the military understands the clearness and severity of the laws he broke. This: ''A private first class does not get to decide whether a conversation between a high-level US official and the king of a Gulf nation should be made public."

[Kennedy 0]

Darius11

The other important issue is this. If the judge decides that yes leaking information that can be seen by enemies of the state is considered treason then bye bye freedom of the press, what's left of it any way.
I do not think that's good for any freedom loving person. If things are made public that means the public including enemies will have access to it. You should not go to jail forthat IMO

Absolutely incorrect. If you have access to classified information r materials, you have a duty to protect them. The press has no such duty. If person A leaks secret documents to person B and B publishes them, person A has committed a crime but person B has not (as long as they have no legal access to them).

The press can print what they get as long as they're not involved in the leaking or theft of materials. It is the duty of people with access to prevent leaks.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[ayevee8toryear 0]

Question 1:

Did obama swear to protect the constitution?

Question 2:

What constitututional rights are still valid right now?

Question 3:

Iş the presedent a traitor.

[Kennedy 0]

What does any of that have to do with Manning? Pct manning volunteered to join, swore his oath, and agreed to protect classified material. He then violated his oath and his clearance agreement.

I answer your questions:
Yes.
All of them.
No.

Try to focus on manning and his crimes. You can start a new thread on Obama, or clearly explain how any actions by Obama affect this.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[ayevee8toryear 0]

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What does any of that have to do with Manning?

It is suggested he follow the status quo (report to his superiors), in order to rectify the wrong doings he was witness to.

The collateral murder video was released by Wiki-leaks to expose that particular instance, as it is pretty damned difficult to question that what those chaps were doing and with consent from their superiors, was criminal. It went viral immediately for a good reason.

The criminal murderers were openly enjoying and joking about it.

What Manning exposed to the general public through wiki-leaks would not likely have been known today, had he followed the suggested protocol. The collateral murder tape is one of many, many occurrences that are left unchecked today that Manning (and wiki-leaks) has allowed us to be privy to if we choose to do so.

This is not because the protocol itself is flawed, it is purely because the chain of command in the military is corrupted all the way up to the president (and beyond), this is also very obvious.

He knows he did not follow protocol, I know it and you know it. Suggesting he should have followed it to achieve his objective of exposing these crimes is absolutely ludicrous.

He is a whistle-blower.

I see him walking proud when I have seen footage of him, he is not a broken man even considering the inhumane, illegal and grotesque nature of his imprisonment.

For that he is a Hero.

Many have fallen victim to following orders, he has sacrificed his life for the sake of others but by exposing Tyranny rather than taking a bullet for the sake of resources and the economy (don't go kidding yourself about democracy and freedom).

Every life lost in the Iraq war, for instance, was a wasted life. It was Manning's superiors that ordered the deaths (a good percentage of them anyway). Why the hell would they want to be implicated or run the risk of demotion in an investigation by taking Manning's concerns further, based on the common knowledge that exposing such things will lead to trouble...?

Would you walk into a bullet knowing there was little means of defense, simply because your superior told you to do so?


It all starts from the top when corruption like this is exposed.

Even the 'Commander-in-cheif' does not call the shots, this is obvious.

But if he is hung by his balls, he will squeal.

[Kennedy 0]

Blah blah blah. He could have gone up his chain of command (they were not involved in the attacks). If that didn't work, he could have gone to army investigators (they're cleared for top secret material). If that didn't work, he could have gone to congress.

He did none of those things. He took classified material, tons of it, 99.99999999% of it not related to any alleged wrong doing, and spread it to unauthorized parties for no good reason. Forget legal, there isn't even a reason for it. Stop portraying him as the crusading do-gooder. He's just a whiny little shit who took advantage of his position to damage his country in order to lash out at the military that he joined voluntarily.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[jcd11235 0]

Kennedy

He's just a whiny little shit who took advantage of his position to damage his country in order to lash out at the military that he joined voluntarily.

While I don't disagree that sentiment, I suspect that he really did have good intentions.

That said, I'll be surprised if he's not convicted. Considering the Arab Spring in which his leaks arguably played a role, I won't be surprised if he's ultimately pardoned or otherwise receives some sort of clemency.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Kennedy 0]

disclaimer: the following is opinion, not legal analysis.
Leniency for him should amount to life without the possibility of parole and a permanent cell in the Colorado filing cabinet for fanatics and freaks. Realistically I don't see how they can let him out in less than 25 for any reason whatsoever. I'd never rule out clemency in the form of commutation from a future POTUS, but it's all but unthinkable right now.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*