"Good manufacturing jobs"

[wmw999 2,134]

I've been out of town on vacation, and catching up on my reading and news. There have been editorial, articles, and a story on "60 Minutes" about the large number of "good manufacturing jobs" that are going unfilled due to a lack of skilled labor.

The reason given is generally that the output requirements are far stricter, and that the level of sophistication of the equipment is far higher, so that new employeed need significant math skills, along with computer skills, to do things like welder and machine operator.

For this, the starting wage quoted for several places was $10/hr, with benefits. While the benefits are good (depending on how much someone has to pay for them), $10/hr isn't a great salary -- at a fulltime level, it means an income of about $20,000 a year. Few of us consider that to be middle class for any other than a single person, or maybe a couple depending on the part of the country.

So the requirements are going up, and the pay level is going down, and people are surprised that people aren't moving across the country for these jobs? Yes, some of them do top out higher (of course, one of them said that they top out at $15/hr, which isn't exactly luxurious), but still it's tough to consider moving for a $20,000 income, unless you have a damn good guarantee that the job won't go away, and that housing won't break the bank, and that you can actually afford the health insurance.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[loch1957 0]

Its not just manufacturing jobs. I see kids (under 21 to me) work for $7.50 an hour but they have to take drug test and a harsh physical just to get the job. Its hard to see how anyone can live on that unless you live at home. The jobs are there but it has become a employer world, to many people looking so they get a lot better options. My manager started asking if they have a job, if not I'm guessing you aren't getting one because theres something wrong with you.

Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

[Mr_Polite 0]

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Its not just manufacturing jobs. I see kids (under 21 to me) work for $7.50 an hour but they have to take drug test and a harsh physical just to get the job.

Whats wrong with a drug test?

[Channman 2]

I would like to see some of the articles you referenced. Many of these hourly rates seems to be related to helpers and or a less skilled position where someone is being mentored i.e. Short Service Employee. They just seem very low

Most of the hiring we did last month for our fabrication shop was for welders and fitters. Most of those I interviewed especially those certified in welding titanium started at 27.00 per hour. Several others started at 18 to 20 per hour.

Helpers start much less, but as they gain skill their hour rate will improve.

[Channman 2]

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Its not just manufacturing jobs. I see kids (under 21 to me) work for $7.50 an hour but they have to take drug test and a harsh physical just to get the job.

Whats wrong with a drug test?

This is standard operating procedure. People operating under the influence is not tolerated, but there are policies in place to give them an opportunity to correct there behavior however repeated random drug testing will be conducted and if a positive result is reported...."Out The Door they Go."

[wmw999 2,134]

60 Minutes
New York Times

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

Whenever someone is hired and that person requires extensive training to get their production to a profitable level, they are typically hired at a lower wage. Where is it written that the starting salary for a new hire must be at a middle class level?

This is the same ridiculous arguments for continuosly increasing the minimum wage. Once a person has been trained, they become more valuable to a company and raises are given incrementally in order to keep that employee. One of the most expensive costs to a company is constantly training new workers. Cheaper to pay the experienced ones more rather than lose them.

[wmw999 2,134]

Many of these jobs are topping out at very-lower-middle-class level (i.e. 15-18/hr). And from the articles, it doesn't look like people are requiring a whole lot of training, employers want them already trained.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bertt 0]

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going unfilled due to a lack of skilled labor.

You've just hit one of my pet peeves. It would be more honest, and more productive, for companies to say, "... due to our lack of willingness to train employees."
Apart from being a convenient excuse to move jobs overseas where the labor is cheaper, that reason is generally given by companies whose management just can't design a successful training program.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[BartsDaddy 4]

And this comes from two NY times articles and a 60 minute segment. So that means the next news reports I hear on skydiving I can entirely believe as factual. I doubt it. And I am sure you would not either. The point is have they found jobs like that i'm sure they have. Is it the norm I doubt it. I have been in trase jobs for a long time and like was pointed out earlier that sounds like helpers wages. After they leared somemore about the job and proved themselve they would move up to another clasification and payscale. Hell i could go get a job tomorrow that pays $15.00 an hour to set on my ass and watch somebody weld while i hold a fire extinguisher. But I would never be able to stay awake doing that. So I will stick to being a lowley millwright. Point is dont believe everything you read or see on tv.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[loch1957 0]

Nothing wrong with a drug test per say. I meant the hoops they have to jump through to get a mediocre job at best. But that being said, I don't agree with drug test in any event, with the exception if the employee's decision can harm others. I don't do drugs, hell i barely drink liquor. I cant smoke a joint at home but I can get drunk and still be tipsy at work the next day, thats ok. How often do employers do a alcohol test? Uhm sorry I seem to have side tracked the thread.

Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

[weekender 0]

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going unfilled due to a lack of skilled labor.

You've just hit one of my pet peeves. It would be more honest, and more productive, for companies to say, "... due to our lack of willingness to train employees."
Apart from being a convenient excuse to move jobs overseas where the labor is cheaper, that reason is generally given by companies whose management just can't design a successful training program.

Well, it depends on what type of training. A company is not going to hire someone and teach them to be a welder, or an electrician, or a pipefitter. That takes years.

You could, however, take a skilled heavy mechanic or an I&E man and use that as a base to teach them how to work on your specific product line.

Unfortunately there aren't many people out there with the base skills and THAT is the problem.

this is what community colleges should be doing. when i was a kid many taught skills like this and helped people get their CDL's too. all for very cheap. Now private schools have taken over and IMO over charge because the students get gov't loans. it should not cost 30k to become an auto tech. thats rougly the cost at a private trade school in the NYC area. thats just wrong.

they should stop giving student loans for trades and instead give the money to community colleges who would charge little to teach usable skills. will never happen though. to much money involved in the private trade schools and Dem's love to hand out student loans to people even if they can never pay them back. both parties are working against kids who should not be going to college.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[lawrocket 3]

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it's tough to consider moving for a $20,000 income, unless you have a damn good guarantee that the job won't go away, and that housing won't break the bank, and that you can actually afford the health insurance.

Welcome to the modern world. The American workforce has managed to price itself out of the market. It's far less expensive to manufacture something overseas and then ship it here to the US.

Take a look at this table:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ichcc.t01.htm

It shows hourly compensation costs (wages, benefits, withholdings, etc.) for manufacturing employment in the US as compared with other countries. All numbers are based upon the US being 100.

As can be seen, in 1997, worker wages constituted 23% of the total costs of manufacturing in 1997. By 2010, that cost was 50% higher at almost 35%. (Check out the other places ahead of the US where compensation costs increased more).

I put this up there because my thought is that as much as we are being told about how little workers are being paid, the cost of workers increased dramatically. It makes one wonder where those additional costs are going. Prices inflate, the cost of labor increases by 50% over 13 years, and wages remain stagnant.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wmw999 2,134]

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The American workforce has managed to price itself out of the market.

I think it's more that the rapidly lowering cost of transportation, along with the rapidly increasing awareness of goods, has conspired to lower the prices of good to way below what their effective cost was back when manufacturing in the US was common.

I remember learning in the US about how many weeks the average American worker had to work to buy a TV. For most workers, it's less than a single week now. Many, many manufactured goods are way cheaper than they used to be, adjusted for inflation, and we own far more of them. Just think of all the mini-storage places out there for people to put their stuff.

I wasn't a poor kid at all, but I only had about 3-4 pairs of shoes, and far fewer clothes than is considered usual any more. I had to be creative not to wear the same thing to school too often when I hit jr. high (uniforms before then).

We paid more for stuff then. Not that we should go back to that, but that's also a part of why "good manufacturing jobs" is seems to be getting to be more of a fiction.

Not always sure all these professional jobs are worth what they're paying, when you compare them to people who actually make stuff.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[lawrocket 3]

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I think it's more that the rapidly lowering cost of transportation, along with the rapidly increasing awareness of goods, has conspired to lower the prices of good to way below what their effective cost was back when manufacturing in the US was common.

That is a part of it. Mechanization has helped with that, too. In the last twenty years we’ve seen that lathe and mill operating machinists/tool and dye makers have given way to CNC. Rather than paying a skilled machinist $70k per year working in a job shop, a machine shop owner can spend it on CNC equipment that can machine parts to greater tolerances and simply need a draftsman/CNC operator to put in the specs.

This is part of it. Materials do often cost less (which actually is not what we hear so much. Materials are finite, we’re using more, but they are less expensive now). But despite the mechanization, wages still are an increasing percentage of unit price.

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Not always sure all these professional jobs are worth what they're paying, when you compare them to people who actually make stuff.

In some ways I agree. But I also think that cats like billvon – a professional who devises the things for them to manufacture – certainly should get a nod. Technicians build the stuff. Engineers tell them what to build, how to build it and out-of-what to build it.

I think the professionals get the shaft quite frequently in these discussions because there are fewer of the professionals than there are technicians.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,635]

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going unfilled due to a lack of skilled labor.

You've just hit one of my pet peeves. It would be more honest, and more productive, for companies to say, "... due to our lack of willingness to train employees."
Apart from being a convenient excuse to move jobs overseas where the labor is cheaper, that reason is generally given by companies whose management just can't design a successful training program.

Well, it depends on what type of training. A company is not going to hire someone and teach them to be a welder, or an electrician, or a pipefitter. That takes years.

You could, however, take a skilled heavy mechanic or an I&E man and use that as a base to teach them how to work on your specific product line.

Unfortunately there aren't many people out there with the base skills and THAT is the problem.

this is what community colleges should be doing.

Didn't realize you are a Socialist!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

>Didn't realize you are a Socialist!

spending tax dollars in a way that actually helps society doesnt make one a socialist. it makes me sad to see how tuition has gone up far more than inflation due to the abuse of student loans.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[billvon 2,416]

>spending tax dollars in a way that actually helps society doesnt make one a socialist.

It quite literally is. When government replaces private industry (in this case, public schools replacing private) that is an example of socialism.

Our society, fortunately, does not hew to any one extreme of economic or social policy. We consider our public parks to belong to everyone in the US as communal property; that's communism. Seems to work. Our roads, police, air traffic control, libraries - socialist. Also seems to work. Our economy is primarily capitalistic, driven by consumer spending. Seems to work.

Our government is partly democratic (ballot measures) mostly representative (elected officials) and partly a meritocracy (many judges.) It consists of three branches, each very different. The difference between the three is one of the reasons it works as well as it does.

All of that is a good thing, in my book. There is a danger of any "pure" ideology; extremists are generally not good at operating in the real world of people who stubbornly refuse to conform to the stereotypes required to make any pure ideology work.

[weekender 0]

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>spending tax dollars in a way that actually helps society doesnt make one a socialist.

It quite literally is. When government replaces private industry (in this case, public schools replacing private) that is an example of socialism.

Our society, fortunately, does not hew to any one extreme of economic or social policy. We consider our public parks to belong to everyone in the US as communal property; that's communism. Seems to work. Our roads, police, air traffic control, libraries - socialist. Also seems to work. Our economy is primarily capitalistic, driven by consumer spending. Seems to work.

Our government is partly democratic (ballot measures) mostly representative (elected officials) and partly a meritocracy (many judges.) It consists of three branches, each very different. The difference between the three is one of the reasons it works as well as it does.

All of that is a good thing, in my book. There is a danger of any "pure" ideology; extremists are generally not good at operating in the real world of people who stubbornly refuse to conform to the stereotypes required to make any pure ideology work.

i dont disagree with the spirit of your post but think you took my sentence way too literally. I took Kallends comment to imply i was some sort of anti capitalist, marxist socialist and replied accordingly. i also assumed he was mostly kidding with me. spending money wisely is just sound policy. its not a left or right thing, in my mind.

for the record, you can be an evil banker and understand the need for tax dollars to be spent in a way that maximizes return on investment. after all, who is going to fix the plumbing in all my homes and drive the trucks to my catered parties if we dont teach these skills. i only need so many ditches dug on my properties.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Bertt 0]

Community colleges and high schools. As much as I believe in strong math and science programs, I use carpentry, finance, and English language skills more than I use quadratic equations. It sure wouldn't hurt for every high school to include vocational subjects in the curriculum.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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this is what community colleges should be doing. when i was a kid many taught skills like this and helped people get their CDL's too. all for very cheap. Now private schools have taken over and IMO over charge because the students get gov't loans.

Community colleges still exist. As of this spring Front Range Community College in Colorado was charging in-state students $105 per credit hour or $3150 for full-time attendance. They still teach trades like welding and auto mechanics.

Of course revenue from those sorts of charges to students and tax payer support doesn't cover marketing to the same degree as for profit institutions so potential students are less aware of them.

Falling tax revenues from the recession have also reduced course offerings.

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they should stop giving student loans for trades and instead give the money to community colleges who would charge little to teach usable skills. will never happen though. to much money involved in the private trade schools and Dem's love to hand out student loans to people even if they can never pay them back. both parties are working against kids who should not be going to college.

It costs about $1.7M/year (successful senate campaigns averaged $10M before the last election and a Senator's term is 6 years) to land a Senate seat paying just $174K/year which is about 1/10th that.

The arithmetic only works because powerful corporatist groups (like PACs - some associated with professional organizations like the National Association of Realtors; some for a single large corporation like AT&T; some for a union like United Auto Workers) cover those campaign costs and get something back for their efforts like special protection for student loans in bankruptcy which helps lenders profit from loans that students can't really afford to repay with the jobs their education qualifies them for which in turn allows education prices to increase (about 250% the rate of inflation since 1985) to match the available money.

In theory we could spend a lot less with free on-line eduction with canned course work (ex - MIT OpenCoursWare), students getting support from each other and interested educators on-line when they run into problems, and have community colleges provide test proctoring and hands-on workshops for a fraction of what they charge now for a complete; although that would upset the profitable status quo.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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it's tough to consider moving for a $20,000 income, unless you have a damn good guarantee that the job won't go away, and that housing won't break the bank, and that you can actually afford the health insurance.

Welcome to the modern world. The American workforce has managed to price itself out of the market.

Legislators and appointed regulators acted on behalf of corporatist interests to increase the costs of living (housing, health care, education) and wages followed.

A young engineer in Silicon Valley (where the jobs are, with 41% of 2011 American high-tech venture capital spending here) needs and receives from large employers like Google $100K in annual compensation to cover a one-bedroom apartment after taxes and live a somewhat middle class lifestyle.

The same engineer earning just $25K/year in India can have a villa with domestic help doing his cleaning.

Eventually the global market will level the playing field and reduce the variation in salaries but not necessarily the costs of living.

A government looking after its' citizens interests would work on policies so that the resulting pay nets a similar standard of living, like a flat or house not a cage apartment with ten people sharing one bathroom. Things like no special treatment in bankruptcy for student loans and not artificially increasing home prices with the GSEs would be steps in the right direction.

[billvon 2,416]

>I took Kallends comment to imply i was some sort of anti capitalist, marxist
>socialist and replied accordingly. i also assumed he was mostly kidding with me.

I think you're right there.

>spending money wisely is just sound policy. its not a left or right thing, in my mind.

Definitely agreed, although some people will surely disagree.

[lawrocket 3]

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spending money wisely is just sound policy. its not a left or right thing, in my mind

The disagreement between left and right is “what is wisely?”

Check out the funding for the Apollo missions. Dudes like Mondale wanted to redirect that money toward their constituents, projects, etc. The whole, “Why are we spending money on the moon when there are people starving right here?”

Some believe that it is an investment in the future to increase school funding and that the education dollars will reap societal benefits. Others believe that we are past the point of marginal utility for additional dollars.

Some believe that deficit spending is a wise thing right now. Others do not. Both have merit.

Some believe that welfare spending should be increased because it is wise. Others believe that wisdom dictates that it be cut.

There are left and right differences in this discussion. That’s the whole disagreement! Is it wise to continue deficit spending at the present level for even one or two more years? Depending on your perspective and what you think is important, wisdom may be had in both “yes” and “no.”

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,635]

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Community colleges and high schools. As much as I believe in strong math and science programs, I use carpentry, finance, and English language skills more than I use quadratic equations. It sure wouldn't hurt for every high school to include vocational subjects in the curriculum.

What was good for you isn't necessarily best for the entire country. Math and science underpin our entire economy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.