mjosparky 3 #26 August 3, 2006 QuoteI'm happy to see you view all swoopers as 'X' jump wonders. ***I don't want to be taken out by some 300 jump wonder who thinks he's ready for swooping. For the sake of accuracy he did not say he viewed all swooper as anything. He said 300-jump wonder that thinks he ready. You are usually the voice of reason in these sometimes-heated discussions, don’t disappoint me now. The jumper that Larry mentioned is a good friend of mine also. And I am pissed. There is no excuse or justification for what happened to him. He was standing still in a landing area that 80 + jumpers can and have landed in many time without incident. QuoteNon-swoopers also need to stay away from the swooping lanes and everyone needs to be aware of horizontal and vertical separation. If there is only one landing area available it is open to everyone. Non-swoopers and swoopers alike. If there are several canopies in the air trying to land in the one landing area there are no swooping lanes. Doing a HP landing in congested air space is not part of their “freedom of choice”. QuoteOn the competitive swooping circuit you get a donut if you cut in front of the guy exiting the aircraft before you and it's not uncommon for us to give each other 15 seconds or more between exits. We are not talking about a swooping competition, we are talking about a laid back mid week load where some asshole felt he had to show how big his dick is and almost killed someone on the ground. This was not some near miss from doing slow “S” turns this was coming through the main landing area at a speed that would get him a ticket in a school zone. Perris is home to some of the best swoopers and canopy pilots in the world. But I have never seen one of them involved in a controversial situation in the main landing area. It always some asshole that thinks he is a swooper and believes it is his right to set his own risk level. Well everyone’s rights stop when they affect the safety of others. As you have said it is a 2 way street. But I have never seen a big ole accuracy canopy doing “S” turns do anything but incontinence someone who thinks it is his right to swoop anywhere anytime. They are big and slow, drive around them. Rant over.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #27 August 3, 2006 QuoteIt always some asshole that thinks he is a swooper and believes it is his right to set his own risk level. Well everyone’s rights stop when they affect the safety of others. I agree that this can be a problem with no easy solution. There are too many wanna-be swoopers who want to have their cake and eat it all on the same jump (ie: do the freefall like everyone else and then swoop the beer line to impress the whuffo tandem peeps). There are some ultra experienced folks who can do both ... safely. But they are few and far between. I know I'm coming in way to fast to want to be around a bunch of people on a regular load, so the vast majority of my swoops are done on hop n' pop loads or high pulls. So ... this message is directed at the swoopers ... You can't always have your cake and eat it all on the same load. Have a plan, stick to the plan and know when to abort. Unless you are one of the ultra experienced peeps who can safely swoop on a regular load (they are rare creatures), then either take your swoops to the hop n' pop loads, or find a safer place to swoop away from all the other traffic. PS: I hope I don't eat my words this weekend as I'm off to a boogie where I doubt there will be a whole lot of hop n' pops and high pulls. It will mostly be regular free fall loads ... and I do need to practice my swoops. But I am prepared to land off far away from everyone else and walk back to the landing area. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #28 August 3, 2006 QuoteOn the other hand not knowing how to correctly execute a low turn has killed people. OK... 1st. There should never be a reason to execute a low turn in the first place. Your flight plan should be set up in your mind in advance. If you see that someone is going to collide with you in time to do something about it, that is a diversion from your flight plan. In this case the other jumper killed you. Not your fault. 2nd. If it weren't for a bunch of people cork screwing down past you and taking over your rightfull airspace, you wouldn't be having to divert from your original flight plan. 3rd. You should have learned this in your first jump course.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #29 August 3, 2006 Dude. Ever heard of landing out? Ever heard of things not going according to plan? Take a look at some of the fatalities in the incident forum. Edit: Are you seriously saying that I shouldn't learn to turn low because I shouldn't need it? Because it certainly sounds that way.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #30 August 3, 2006 QuoteI really think all we need to do is seperate the two disciplines as far as landing characteristics and practices go. We have a seperate student landing area. Why not a seperate hookturn and swooping area. In the main landing area the rules should be followed and deviations from the rules should result in warnings and groundings. And in the "High Performance Area" I'm sure they will also have rules. Simple as that. What would you guys think of that? In my opinion it would acutally give you more freedoms and less worries... I like the idea. I already land where I am safe, not just close. But if you have worries about traffic, you can always land in the student area as well. When in Eloy, I have landed away from the main landing area if it looked crowded. My current DZ has three main areas. Left hand pattern (which allows 180's), Swoop lane, and the "no mans land", where you can do as you please."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #31 August 3, 2006 QuoteEver heard of landing out? Ever heard of things not going according to plan? Again we are not talking about landing out and things going wrong... Hey I used to jump with a guy named Perry Armstrong... I know landing out. We are talking about the main landing area. Not the student target. Not the swoop pond and not out landings. Yes you better be ready to try and save your hyde if things go wrong. Thats why we train water landings in water I guess. You only need to do that once right? I also don't have to actually go in just to find out what it's like.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #32 August 3, 2006 QuoteAgain we are not talking about landing out and things going wrong... I think the two go together. If you only ever practice Boeing 747 finals then you are not prepared for the eventuality of something going wrong, because then you don't know how your canopy is going to react when you pull on that toggle to avoid the power lines you miraculously overlooked before. I merely reacted to you indicating that only flying slow and abstaining from low turns could not kill people. IMHO it can and it has. Therefore it was a point worth making.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #33 August 4, 2006 QuoteI think the sport has accepted swoopingfreeflying. Its an official competition event in many countries. Its still adding a big risk factor to an already risky sport. The main problem comes with the added risk for others. There have been a few fataliies in the last couple of years of peopel getting killed by others due to a mid air collision during a swoopfreefly jump. Freeflying encourages the use of equipment outside it's TSO'd maximums. Swooping atleast has gear properly designed and rated for the activity. 's advocate---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #34 August 4, 2006 Why don't we just ban injuries and leave it at that?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #35 August 4, 2006 First of all I want to apologize if I appeared to be jumping your shit. You were just a target of opportunity. As I said in my post, when there is chaos on this subject you are usually the voice of reason. So ... this message is directed at the swoopers ... No, I don’t think your message is for swooper. It is for the wanna-be swoopers. The ones that can’t be bothered learning the basics before going big. Again as I posted before, the really good swoopers are not a problem; they have the tools, maturity and common sense to know when and where to swoop. And they gained their abilities without endangering others just to look cool. I think we are about the same thing. Enjoy what you do but don’t take away the enjoyment of others. Have fun at the boogey.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #36 August 4, 2006 QuoteWhy don't we just ban injuries and leave it at that? Its been tried and didn't work for shit.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #37 August 4, 2006 QuoteFlying slow and not doing sharp turns below 200 feet has not killed anyone that I know of yet. (someone will argue this Im sure) Yep. Me. People doing unpredictable sashaying turns, no matter how 'not sharp' their turns are when they are in the landing pattern, particularly below 200ft is dangerous whether you have 10 or 100 canopies in the air. I for one have had to make flat and flare turns at very low altitudes to avoid some numpty making a non-sharp turn just to land that bit closer to the runway crossing point. Happily our accuracy jumpers have their own area to play in...*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #38 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteFlying slow and not doing sharp turns below 200 feet has not killed anyone that I know of yet. (someone will argue this Im sure) Yep. Me. People doing unpredictable sashaying turns, no matter how 'not sharp' their turns are when they are in the landing pattern, particularly below 200ft is dangerous whether you have 10 or 100 canopies in the air. I for one have had to make flat and flare turns at very low altitudes to avoid some numpty making a non-sharp turn just to land that bit closer to the runway crossing point. Happily our accuracy jumpers have their own area to play in... You should read what was posted before you respond. Since you are able to post it did not kill you.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #39 August 4, 2006 >1st. There should never be a reason to execute a low turn in the first place. 1. A 5 year old runs in front of you to get to her father who is landing. 2. A thunderstorm gust front comes through, and switches the landing direction. You can land downwind in 25kt winds or upwind. 3. A dust devil appears directly in front of you. 4. You have to land out and you see a powerline at the last minute. 5. You're landing out to help someone recover their freebag and a car pulls in front of you (happened to Amy.) I've seen all the above happen. When they do happen you have three choices - -Pull a toggle down and die. -Land into the hazard. Might hurt you, might not. -Flat turn and land somewhere else. I think the third option is generally the best choice. If you can't flat turn, history has shown that the favorite choice is the first one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #40 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuotehow about maybe getting a little more grass up in that joint eh... I have a feeling that Wind Tunnels and Jet Airplanes are higher on the priority list than a nice safe LARGER landing area... Then I would say this...having jumped there and know what you are talking about... go to Taft north of LA, its super chill, go to Elsinore, I hear it is super chill... if you are uncomfortable with the size of the nice landing area at perris, go somewhere else where they focus on taking care of said same landing are or at least have less jumpers in the plane... Cheers and Blue skies Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #41 August 4, 2006 ... everyone’s rights stop when they affect the safety of others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #42 August 4, 2006 Quotemind if i ask...but what is a "hook turn"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toggle "hook turns" were fashionable with "Stiletto Pilots" 10 or 15 years ago. Hook turns fell out of fashion after people realized that toggle hook turns were dangerous because they put you at great risk, low to the ground, low air speed, little control and no canopy overhead. After a hook turn, you had wait a few seconds - before your canopy re-appeared overhead - before your steering toggles started working again. These days, "toggle hook turns" are only performed by swoop wannabees, who don't have the first clue about what they are doing. Toggle hook turns should be banned because they have put too many people into the hospital/morgue/cemetery, etc. Stepping down from soap box. Hint: the best way to avoid stupidly-low toggle hook turns is to read - and practice some of the exercises recommended by Bill Von, Jim Slaton, Scott Miller, and other leading canopy coaches. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #43 August 4, 2006 I have seen a few mishaps where swoopers came in too hot, their lines snag a flag or something, and next thing you know somebody is on the way to the hospital. This is completely unacceptable! I think anyone who does that should have to pay for the person's injuries and be grounded for a month. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about grounding them until the victim heals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #44 August 5, 2006 QuoteFlat turn and land somewhere else That is not a hook turn I have had to flat turn and land on the runway of all places because of a hook turner who corkscrewed right down infront of me and forced me off target. The runway was the only choice, luckily there was no aircraft on final, and I had to do it pretty much downwind. Good PLF... I went over to talk to the little lady about it and all she could say was I HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY... She said that about 10 times and I finally just walked off shaking my head. I was lower than her untill she corkscrewed in front of me... Again Im talking about the use of the main landing area here folks...Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #45 August 5, 2006 >>Flat turn and land somewhere else >That is not a hook turn. I agree; it's just a turn you can do at the last moment, even if you're low. I was just responding to your statement that "there should never be a reason to execute a low turn in the first place." You gave a good reason to do one in your example - being cut off by an errant swooper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #46 August 5, 2006 There is no such thing as a safe hook turn. Just like there was never any such thing as a safe low pull I don't see the connection between low pulls and swooping. For one thing, watching a low pull doesn't fill me with a sense of awe or beauty. Watching the PD Factory Team hook and swoop in unison does. No doubt about it, swooping IS more dangerous. In fact, I choose not to do it, I'm of the old school that believes parachutes are meant to SLOW you down before landing. I'm not against forcing the swoopers to stick to a designated landing area either, especially the careless yahoos who only think they can swoop. But it can be done intelligently and with a reasonable degree of safety. And the best swoopers took thousands of very patient jumps to get as good as they are. But ANY form of skydiving can kill you and the jump's never really over until you're OFF the landing zone and out of your rig. But I don't want to ban swooping because of a few idiots any more than I'd want to ban freefall because of the woman who pulled below fifty feet last year. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #43 August 4, 2006 I have seen a few mishaps where swoopers came in too hot, their lines snag a flag or something, and next thing you know somebody is on the way to the hospital. This is completely unacceptable! I think anyone who does that should have to pay for the person's injuries and be grounded for a month. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about grounding them until the victim heals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #44 August 5, 2006 QuoteFlat turn and land somewhere else That is not a hook turn I have had to flat turn and land on the runway of all places because of a hook turner who corkscrewed right down infront of me and forced me off target. The runway was the only choice, luckily there was no aircraft on final, and I had to do it pretty much downwind. Good PLF... I went over to talk to the little lady about it and all she could say was I HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY... She said that about 10 times and I finally just walked off shaking my head. I was lower than her untill she corkscrewed in front of me... Again Im talking about the use of the main landing area here folks...Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #45 August 5, 2006 >>Flat turn and land somewhere else >That is not a hook turn. I agree; it's just a turn you can do at the last moment, even if you're low. I was just responding to your statement that "there should never be a reason to execute a low turn in the first place." You gave a good reason to do one in your example - being cut off by an errant swooper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #46 August 5, 2006 There is no such thing as a safe hook turn. Just like there was never any such thing as a safe low pull I don't see the connection between low pulls and swooping. For one thing, watching a low pull doesn't fill me with a sense of awe or beauty. Watching the PD Factory Team hook and swoop in unison does. No doubt about it, swooping IS more dangerous. In fact, I choose not to do it, I'm of the old school that believes parachutes are meant to SLOW you down before landing. I'm not against forcing the swoopers to stick to a designated landing area either, especially the careless yahoos who only think they can swoop. But it can be done intelligently and with a reasonable degree of safety. And the best swoopers took thousands of very patient jumps to get as good as they are. But ANY form of skydiving can kill you and the jump's never really over until you're OFF the landing zone and out of your rig. But I don't want to ban swooping because of a few idiots any more than I'd want to ban freefall because of the woman who pulled below fifty feet last year. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #47 August 5, 2006 QuoteI don't see the connection between low pulls and swooping. Here's the way I see it. Low pulls were basically a way of extending your fun on the skydive. In a low pull situation your limit is, as always, the ground. More adrenaline I guess. If the ground weren't there, it wouldn't be a low pull and it wouldn't be fun. Swooping which usually requires a hook turn also has the same limit. The ground. If the ground weren't there, it wouldnt be a swoop and it wouldn't be any fun. There's my explanation of why I consider them pretty much the same.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #48 August 7, 2006 Quote... everyone’s rights stop when they affect the safety of others. Your right to get up and drive to work in the morning affects the safety of others, where do you draw the line? Every normal skydive affects the safety of people on the ground, it's unavoidable. There's a chance bystanders could get hurt or killed. This is just one of the excuses for banning BASE jumping in otherwise 'safe' remote locations. Enforce your beer line, it's better than the slippery slope you'r so ready to climb on to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #49 August 7, 2006 Quote... everyone’s rights stop when they affect the safety of others. ahhhh that is one of my favorite lines...seriously its in big bold letters in the beginning of the high performance section of Brian Germains book "A parachute and its pilot" and I like it a lot Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gkc1436 3 #50 August 7, 2006 The big orange tag on the parachute and on some rigs kinda answers that. g Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
