If you're a male and you're voting for Obama

[kelpdiver 2]

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You can't make girls want to do these degrees at the same level of interest without fixing some serious societal flaws.

I wonder what 'flaws' you think exist.

And whatever you 'fix', even then, 'making' someone do something they don't want to do is still wrong.

I think it's wrong to give girls dolls over legos, and esp Barbies that say things like "math is hard." How much engineering background are they getting playing in Barbie's fun house while the boys are using construction kits with hammers? Sure her mansion has an elevator pulley in it, but once it's been built, nothing learned there. Children absorb what they're introduced to and build on top of it.

Girls are steered away from the STEM fields by these cultural norms that date back to when they were to be housewives and perhaps nurses. It's not intentional damage, but it is damage all the same.

[rehmwa 2]

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I think it's wrong to give girls dolls over legos, and esp Barbies that say things like "math is hard." How much engineering background are they getting playing in Barbie's fun house while the boys are using construction kits with hammers? Sure her mansion has an elevator pulley in it, but once it's been built, nothing learned there. Children absorb what they're introduced to and build on top of it.

Girls are steered away from the STEM fields by these cultural norms that date back to when they were to be housewives and perhaps nurses. It's not intentional damage, but it is damage all the same.

It's not the government's role to tell parents how to parent. Even though I agree with you, it's not my business to force that on other parents.

Frankly, I wonder if this is such a huge deal today or if a lot of people are just hanging on to their personal recollections from decades ago rather than looking at today's kids......


My daughter wanted dolls. So we let her play with them. She also like to build stuff, so we had toys that did that too. All we did was to try to encourage what she liked, and make sure she also had discipline and was respectful of others. She's talented enough that were are lucky that she can choose art, medicine, engineering, and just about anything else she'd like. I don't think anything is off the table and she has nothing to prove.

I want her to pick the field she wants to pursue, rather than pick something just to spite an outdated cultural norm that really doesn't exist so much in her generation. (Which I think actually is being impressed upon kids and young women - too much interference is driving just a different form of bias rather than eliminating bias in general - I find that sad).

I think most parents are similar.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Shotgun 1]

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Any man with a STEM degree who votes for Obama is the worst kind of traitor you can think of.

Perhaps. If this is the one single issue taken into account when choosing a candidate.

It's possible to vote for someone because his values, considering all issues, are closest to yours. Actually, that's probably the norm. (If anyone has ever voted for a "perfect" candidate, I'd be curious to hear about it.) If he has a major issue that you disagree with (such as this one), let him know about it.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Frankly, I wonder if this is such a huge deal today or if a lot of people are just hanging on to their personal recollections from decades ago rather than looking at today's kids......

cultural norms persist for generations. The biases are still obvious to see, and the results are still easily measured. BTW, you leaped to a conclusion that I said government needs to tell parents anything. I pointed out a fault that we have, not a solution.

But now that we're in a state where women are actually overrrepresented in college, it seems likely that the next generation will be significantly closer in those fields.

[DanG 1]

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It's not the government's role to tell parents how to parent. Even though I agree with you, it's not my business to force that on other parents.

Frankly, I wonder if this is such a huge deal today or if a lot of people are just hanging on to their personal recollections from decades ago rather than looking at today's kids......


My daughter wanted dolls. So we let her play with them. She also like to build stuff, so we had toys that did that too. All we did was to try to encourage what she liked, and make sure she also had discipline and was respectful of others. She's talented enough that were are lucky that she can choose art, medicine, engineering, and just about anything else she'd like. I don't think anything is off the table and she has nothing to prove.

I want her to pick the field she wants to pursue, rather than pick something just to spite an outdated cultural norm that really doesn't exist so much in her generation. (Which I think actually is being impressed upon kids and young women - too much interference is driving just a different form of bias rather than eliminating bias in general - I find that sad).

I think most parents are similar.

You, sir, are clearly a gender traitor. The worst kind of traitor!

- Dan G

[sundevil777 94]

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If the men are "losing ground" in these traditionally male-dominated fields, it isn't because of Title IX, it's because they are being out-competed.

Quite right. However, when liberals look at the numbers of women in engineering, they conclude that there is a problem that should be fixed. That "fix" usually means a set-aside or preference in terms of scholarships or something that involves fixing a problem that doesn't exist (assuming that there isn't discrimination against women wanting to get into engineering programs).

I contend that Obama is pandering, and his good intentions are likely doing harm (classic outcome of liberal policies).

You say disparities that exist are due to people's own choices, but then say barriers are coming down. That seems to be a contradiction, please explain.

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anyone reading/listening to Shah's posts would perceive hostility to women as engineers.

I haven't picked that up. I just get the impression that he thinks the women in the field to be less attractive than normal, or at least than he would like. Perhaps I've missed that in his posts, feel free to point it out. Maybe his desire for more female coworkers to be attractive has come across as hostility to them personally, but I don't see it that way. I've also picked up that he is hostile to male engineers that have body odor - but I can understand that hostility.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[rehmwa 2]

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You, sir, are clearly a gender traitor. The worst kind of traitor!

Oh CRAP!!!! and I'm not even sure which gender I'm betraying here

I better play it safe and advocate special treatment for men, and then also advocate special treatment for women

we can't let the OTHER SIDE win!!!

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sundevil777 94]

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I want her to pick the field she wants to pursue, rather than pick something just to spite an outdated cultural norm that really doesn't exist so much in her generation. (Which I think actually is being impressed upon kids and young women - too much interference is driving just a different form of bias rather than eliminating bias in general - I find that sad).

Hurumph! (that means well said).

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Arvoitus 1]

My intention wasn't, even though thats what you wanted to believe, to imply that it is because women that the quality is lowered but because of artificial quotas that will block out the most competent and most passionate people. Like davjohns said 'The purple, androgynous, cthulu worshipper? Hired!', I don't care two flying fucks about your gender or your race or whatever bullshit victim card you want to whip out. The most competent and the most qualified should always be the first to be chosen.

Like you yourself admit, your opinion is colored by your personal bias from your own field. If you look at the statistics you'll see that there is a significan't difference in certain areas (Tables 11, 18 and 25).

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Women as a percentage of all bachelor’s recipients:

Engineering : 20.1
Physical sciences : 41.7
Mathematics/computer sciences : 31.8

Women as a percentage of all master’s degree recipients

Engineering : 21.2
Physical sciences : 34.8
Mathematics/computer sciences : 35.2

Women as a percentage of all doctorate recipients

Engineering : 16.9
Physical sciences : 41.7
Mathematics/computer sciences : 24.6

Since women can't be forced to study in fields they're not interested in, quotas will have to be implemented, which will reduce the amount of men allowed to study in these fields. And since artificial 50/50 quotas on, fields dominated by men, is what the master social engineers want, that is what they'll get, by gimping men and ultimately ruining the high quality achieved in these fields.

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Girls are steered away from the STEM fields by these cultural norms that date back to when they were to be housewives and perhaps nurses. It's not intentional damage, but it is damage all the same.

Complete and utter bullshit. There are innate biological difference between men and women that ultimately drive their behavior, the culture around them merely intensifies those behaviors.

Gender Gap: The Biology of Male-Female Differences:

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Similarly, girl babies in their cribs are especially inclied to state at images of human faces, whereas infant boys are likely to find inanimate objects every bit as attractive. When older children were asked to look though a device that provides one eye with the image of and object (house, car, fire hydrant) and the other eye with a picture of a human being, most boys reported seeing objects and most girls focused, literally, on the people. Interestingly, this difference persists into adulthood: when shown images of people as well as of things, men tend to remember the things and women tend to remember the people.

Unless of course you want to argue that the Evil Straight White Male is so powerful that they can effect the way infants behave.

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but Arvoitus is not really the most elegant in communications historically

Possibly because I'm not native english speaker and also because I've noticed that being neutral and agreeable on the Internet will get you ignored. Although going to far will get you ignored also.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[billvon 2,435]

>because of artificial quotas that will block out the most competent and most passionate people.

They don't. The most competent and most passionate people are going to make it anyway. It's the marginal people of both sexes (and all races, and all religions etc) that are affected.

>There are innate biological difference between men and women that ultimately
>drive their behavior, the culture around them merely intensifies those behaviors.

It is, of course, both. Very few people's behaviors are dictated by their genes - although their genetic drive can certainly play a role in determining their aptitudes, preferences etc.

[jcd11235 0]

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I'm more familiar with the biology and chemistry programs, as that is where I'm involved in undergraduate and graduate teaching, and in those disciplines there are a preponderance of women students.

More females than males in chemistry and biology classes would not surprise me.

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I don't know why some fields tend to attract more women, and others attract more men, but I'm sure that people tend to do better if they can enroll in majors they have an interest in. … There may be a perception by some that particular fields are hostile to this or that gender, and people may choose to avoid those fields for that reason.

Did you, by chance, see this article?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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You can't make girls want to do these degrees at the same level of interest without fixing some serious societal flaws.

I wonder what 'flaws' you think exist.

And whatever you 'fix', even then, 'making' someone do something they don't want to do is still wrong.

I think the mentality that forcing certain subjective parities just based on a handful of people's opinions is goofy. I'd just say let the kids pick the majors they want and let the government only have one purpose - to not allow institutions to establish bias.

Is it possible that the institutions are already unintentionally establishing bias in the manner that math and science are presented? Is there any harm in trying to attract the interest of more females in these areas of study?

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[rehmwa 2]

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Is there any harm in trying to attract the interest of more females in these areas of study?

meh - I suspect the situation in the job market is already pretty apparent for those that really care to do their homework.

I'm also wondering, do we have similar, pointless, PR programs to attract men to typically female dominated roles? or is this just a one sided gender bias discussion?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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Since women can't be forced to study in fields they're not interested in, quotas will have to be implemented, which will reduce the amount of men allowed to study in these fields

That's highly unlikely. While females may be underrepresented in math and science (excluding chemistry and biology), interest in these subjects by American students in general is pretty low. I can't imagine anyone would take steps to lower total admissions further.

More likely is that attempts would be made to nurture an interest in math and science in young primary and secondary school students, particularly girls, so that when they are old enough to choose a university major, more of them will find math and science appealing.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,435]

>I'm also wondering, do we have similar, pointless, PR programs to attract men to
>typically female dominated roles?

At schools - yes. Vassar has had an unofficial affirmative action program for men for years, mainly because they started as a woman-only college and have neither a football team nor an engineering school. UNC asked its board of trustees to consider it.

[Arvoitus 1]

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I'm also wondering, do we have similar, pointless, PR programs to attract men to typically female dominated roles? or is this just a one sided gender bias discussion?

Nope, none exists. It is only the media sexy male dominated domains that get this special treatment from the social engineers. When is the last time you've heard a feminist cry out that not enough women are dying on their workplaces (over 90% of workplace deaths occur to men):

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Inspired by Equal Pay Day, and in recognition of the significant gender differences in workplace deaths, let me propose the creation of “Equal Occupational Fatality Day,” which will occur next on October 11, 2021. That date symbolizes how long women will have to work before they experience the same loss of life from work-related deaths that men experienced in 2008.

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They don't. The most competent and most passionate people are going to make it anyway. It's the marginal people of both sexes (and all races, and all religions etc) that are affected.

Yes, I should've worded it in a different way. Lets say you have 100 applicants, 20 women and 80 men. And lets also assume we're under the nightmare scenario where some crazy 1-on-1 equality madness is going on. So at best in this scenario only 20 men will be able to attend. 75% of the men will be disqualified simply because they're representing the wrong gender. You honestly think that will only affect just the marginal cases?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Since women can't be forced to study in fields they're not interested in, quotas will have to be implemented, which will reduce the amount of men allowed to study in these fields

That's highly unlikely. While females may be underrepresented in math and science (excluding chemistry and biology), interest in these subjects by American students in general is pretty low. I can't imagine anyone would take steps to lower total admissions further.

More likely is that attempts would be made to nurture an interest in math and science in young primary and secondary school students, particularly girls, so that when they are old enough to choose a university major, more of them will find math and science appealing.

Initially, perhaps. But when those methods fail, what happens? Title IX lead to some bad results for non revenue men's sports like gymnastics and baseball.

How long until Caltech gets sued to comply with an academic Title IX?

[billvon 2,435]

>Lets say you have 100 applicants, 20 women and 80 men. And lets also assume we're
> under the nightmare scenario where some crazy 1-on-1 equality madness is going on.
>So at best in this scenario only 20 men will be able to attend. 75% of the men will be
>disqualified simply because they're representing the wrong gender. You honestly think
>that will only affect just the marginal cases?

In your "crazy equality madness" world, yes, then everyone would be affected. But in the real world, if they had 100 slots they would admit 20 women and 80 men.

The more important case is 20 women and 80 men with 40 slots available. The superstars in both genders make it. But if there is affirmative action in either direction then some of the more average applicants won't.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Is there any harm in trying to attract the interest of more females in these areas of study?

meh - I suspect the situation in the job market is already pretty apparent for those that really care to do their homework.

by the 8-10 year olds? They all want to be astronomers and firemen and reporters. Maybe super heroes these days. By the time kids even begin to think about these things (and it's difficult to do too far ahead in technology due to changing trends) it's too late. If you want to do engineering or physics at a serious school, you better be on track to finish 1st year calculus (both semesters, not just the 1st) in high school, or you're going to suffer a bit in year 1 at college. (or more likely, not be admitted) Short of compressing years together, that means algebra in junior high.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Girls are steered away from the STEM fields by these cultural norms that date back to when they were to be housewives and perhaps nurses. It's not intentional damage, but it is damage all the same.

Complete and utter bullshit. There are innate biological difference between men and women that ultimately drive their behavior, the culture around them merely intensifies those behaviors.

So what are the portions being culture and behaviours here?

The huge gaping hole in your thesis here, which I will say is a big part of the continuation of this disparity, is that it doesn't seem to exist in Asian girls. I live in a city that is significant Chinese and other Asians - perhaps to the tune of 40-45%. I went to a university that had a significant Asian population. Even my high school in Orange County had a significant Asian representation in my honors classes - many of them lied about their address to attend my school. Their parents don't buy into your thesis and they certainly didn't allow their children to slack off with that excuse.

End result - I see nothing to support your claim. The observational evidence is so strong that I think it's quite obvious that it's our cultural biases that are nearly entirely responsible.

It's nearly shocking to me when I come across an Asian clerk - ie, generally the average woman, not the elite who went to my university - that can't do change in the register well. For other ethnicities, I expect that sort of fumbling.

[jcd11235 0]

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Since women can't be forced to study in fields they're not interested in, quotas will have to be implemented, which will reduce the amount of men allowed to study in these fields

That's highly unlikely. While females may be underrepresented in math and science (excluding chemistry and biology), interest in these subjects by American students in general is pretty low. I can't imagine anyone would take steps to lower total admissions further.

More likely is that attempts would be made to nurture an interest in math and science in young primary and secondary school students, particularly girls, so that when they are old enough to choose a university major, more of them will find math and science appealing.

Initially, perhaps. But when those methods fail, what happens? Title IX lead to some bad results for non revenue men's sports like gymnastics and baseball.

How long until Caltech gets sued to comply with an academic Title IX?

I'm sure many different approaches will be taken by different states and cities. I'm equally sure that some will work better than others. I doubt they all fail. Successful programs can be more widely implemented.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm sure many different approaches will be taken by different states and cities. I'm equally sure that some will work better than others. I doubt they all fail. Successful programs can be more widely implemented.

Like I said, I don't believe this story to be valid.

But your answer is about the least assuring I can imagine ... you're blowing smoke up our asses here. The key problem with past mistakes around admissions quota policies is that the damage done to those applicants are long lasting.

[jcd11235 0]

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The key problem with past mistakes around admissions quota policies is that the damage done to those applicants are long lasting.

You do realize that I said that addressing the problem via admissions quota policies is not the way to do it, right?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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The key problem with past mistakes around admissions quota policies is that the damage done to those applicants are long lasting.

You do realize that I said that addressing the problem via admissions quota policies is not the way to do it, right?

when you talked about "different approaches," that is the most obvious one. What else can you do if the initial approach fails and Caltech gets sued for non compliance? What has UC been doing all along? They add points to the admissions scoring of "disadvantaged" candidates.

[jcd11235 0]

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The key problem with past mistakes around admissions quota policies is that the damage done to those applicants are long lasting.

You do realize that I said that addressing the problem via admissions quota policies is not the way to do it, right?

when you talked about "different approaches," that is the most obvious one. What else can you do if the initial approach fails and Caltech gets sued for non compliance? What has UC been doing all along? They add points to the admissions scoring of "disadvantaged" candidates.

In the context of what I had previously stated in the thread, my comment said/implied that different approaches would be used to attempt to nurture interest in math and science among primary and secondary school students, so that when the time comes for them to choose a college major, those areas of study will seem more appealing (than they do to their present day counterparts).

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