Lead poisoning killing California condors

[kallend 1,623]

articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/25/science/la-sci-condors-lead-poisoning-20120626

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

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articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/25/science/la-sci-condors-lead-poisoning-20120626

Its been so long that i dont recall when it happened but you can NOT hunt waterfowl with lead for this reason. It took years for the industry to come up with a metal that hunted as well as lead but they are there now. My opinion, of course.

i assume they could do the same with bullets and solve the problem. it will cost more for sure but if you really enjoy the sport and are realistic about the actual cosst, its not so bad. Once i factor in all my clothes, boats, guns etc...the extra cost of shells is pretty minimal.

not to mention all the man hours wasted getting ready and actually hunting rather than doing chores around the house. my wife is quick to point out that cost. hah

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[matthewcline 0]

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

The rules.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[weekender 0]

So people are not obeying the law. Or the birds are getting the lead from somewhere else. i have no idea. those are the only reasonable explanations out there in my opinion though.

for fun i will suggest a more non reasonble explanation but one not to far fetched. Someone is exaggerating the impact of hunting on a beloved animal for political gain. i dont know Cali that well but do know they have a pretty powerful green/anti anything they dont like movement. i can only imagine how much they hate hunting.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[matthewcline 0]

The only fact that was not disputable in the article was the cause of death for the Condor.

The law has removed lead bullets from use, mostly, but some I am sure break the law. There are other lead sources, but how a Condor would be exposed to them I do not know.

Mostly this article and a few others are part of the anti-hunting crowd and lead bullet ban groups efforts.

NOW, we do need to protect the Condor. but we need to do it honestly.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Southern_Man 0]

I don't know much about ammunition. One thing I noted, in a quick google search, is that apparently California still allows the use of lead in fishing sinkers and shot. I have personally switched to lead free in all applications. There are good alternatives and the toxicity of lead really is not disputable. (I am not saying that condors are being poisoned by lead fishing tackle, although it is one possibility, just that responsible sportsmen shouldn't need laws and regulations to do the right thing.)

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[billvon 2,400]

>So people are not obeying the law.

From the rules:

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The Commission has not addressed the issue of hunting small game mammals because
that section of the regulations was not “opened” for potential change. Therefore, hunters
can legally hunt jackrabbit, cottontail, and tree squirrel using lead projectiles.
============

So condors are still getting lead from people hunting legally.

[matthewcline 0]

True, they could, but they would be acting illegally if they left the animals after shooting them. I am sure a few will get a way and expire and then the Condor will eat them. Typically a hunter will take the entire carcass of those small creatures with them.

I think the lead from bullets is just an easy target.

But we can move on to other types of projectiles now, the tech has caught up. Then we can protect all the wildlife, and allow the hunting to go on responsibly.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[weekender 0]

oh, so maybe then all lead should be illegal. I've used non lead so long i cannot remotely sympathize with those still using it.

you want to hunt pay up a small amount AND become a better shot, hah.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[JohnRich 4]

While you're banning lead bullets, don't forget to go after the litterers too.

"Patterns of mortality in free-ranging California Condors"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22247378

[billvon 2,400]

>While you're banning lead bullets, don't forget to go after the litterers too.

Agreed; that's another important avenue to pursue.

[matthewcline 0]

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>While you're banning lead bullets, don't forget to go after the litterers too.

Agreed; that's another important avenue to pursue.

Yep, part of the whole "honesty" thing.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[kallend 1,623]

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While you're banning lead bullets, don't forget to go after the litterers too.

"Patterns of mortality in free-ranging California Condors"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22247378

Indeed - the disgusting things that some people leave in national parks simply amaze me.

There are good alternatives to lead ammunition. Only irresponsible hunters would still use lead.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

For those wondering how they're getting lead, the the condors are consuming it while scavenging carcasses.

The California Condor has made a remarkable recovery. My concern is that this may be a big press item going too far with things. Plenty of these people suggest that human children are getting exposed to lead from bullets, too, and are making intimations about using lead as a way to ban bullets.

Think about it - using the EPA or other environmental organizations to ban guns by banning ammunition by banning lead. I'd never viewed that angle before.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 18]

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For those wondering how they're getting lead, the the condors are consuming it while scavenging carcasses.

The California Condor has made a remarkable recovery. My concern is that this may be a big press item going too far with things. Plenty of these people suggest that human children are getting exposed to lead from bullets, too, and are making intimations about using lead as a way to ban bullets.

Think about it - using the EPA or other environmental organizations to ban guns by banning ammunition by banning lead. I'd never viewed that angle before.

Good post
I have been looking and holding back a bit here

The DNR tried the same thing here in IA when the Dove season was brought in. In the end, there is no science that shows lead shot as being harmful to the environment. (Note: lead shot is not allowed for water foul hunting here though)

What keeps coming back to me is the story of the DNR officer who went to a zoo, got some fur/hair from a bobcat and put it on a hair trap that was being used to show what aninmals were in the area that was being opened to hunting

Because of this "find" the DNR closed the area to hunting. The courts got involved, questioned the science process and forced the DNR to do its investigations over.

Well, the final irony of this was that the same officer got caught by a wild life cameral spiking the hair trap.

Now, I am not saying what happened with the condor is anywhere near this. I dont really question that this ONE bird my have died this way

The rest? The blood tests? Well, I think they should be reviewed

This does not pass the smell test

The EPA has been trying to ban lead shot for a while and they keep getting slapped back

They dont stop however and i dont trust them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>The EPA has been trying to ban lead shot for a while and they keep getting slapped back.

And if states follow through on the research (as California did) - they won't need to.

[rushmc 18]

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>The EPA has been trying to ban lead shot for a while and they keep getting slapped back.

And if states follow through on the research (as California did) - they won't need to.

Iowa did research

Extensive

Found no scientific reason to ban lead shot

That did not matter to the DNR idots however
They moved forward on their own and got bitch slapped for it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>Iowa did research Extensive Found no scientific reason to ban lead shot

Where is this research?

Here's a blurb from one of the studies on the California condor:

===========
The lead isotope ratio technique has been also recently applied as a forensics tool to trace lead sources involved in condor deaths. A feather from one condor (#165) released in Arizona and found dead nearly 3 years later (June 2000) from acute lead poisoning with 16-17 shotgun pellets in its stomach was analyzed for lead concentration and lead isotope composition (Church et al. 2006). The lead isotopic ratio in the feather from this condor (in the area of the rachis and vane with most recent growth) closely matched that detected in ammunition samples from stores in California (Church et al. 2006).
===========

[rushmc 18]

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>Iowa did research Extensive Found no scientific reason to ban lead shot

Where is this research?

Here's a blurb from one of the studies on the California condor:

===========
The lead isotope ratio technique has been also recently applied as a forensics tool to trace lead sources involved in condor deaths. A feather from one condor (#165) released in Arizona and found dead nearly 3 years later (June 2000) from acute lead poisoning with 16-17 shotgun pellets in its stomach was analyzed for lead concentration and lead isotope composition (Church et al. 2006). The lead isotopic ratio in the feather from this condor (in the area of the rachis and vane with most recent growth) closely matched that detected in ammunition samples from stores in California (Church et al. 2006).
===========

As I stated up thread I dont know about the condor info
I am willing to wait

But one reason I question it is because of research from here



Let me go back a bit

Iowa law makers considered a lead bullet ban in Iowa two sessions ago

The DNR presented its research and opposition presented it own
The DNR's info presented did not amount to much and so the law makers did not put a lead shot ban into place

Fast forward to the Dove hunting issue
The law makers also put a dove hunting season into place. Again, based on economical and envio studies based on this bird.
The DNR and folks like PETA were against it

So, the DNR was forced to hold public hearings and set a dove hunting season

Is was during the dove issue the DNR arbitrarily banned lead shot against the express wishes of the law makers

This played another part in the game which the unelected bureaucrats lost in the end when the Gov of the state over road that portion of the rules

One of the studies brought in during the debate was based on the vultures here. They, like the condors, are birds of opportunity.

They show no ill effects from lead

Why do you suppose there is a big difference? Is there more hunting in CA?

Again, I don't question the lead tests

That does not satisfy my skepticism regarding how the lead was introduced into the condors

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

One of the studies brought in during the debate was based on the vultures here. They, like the condors, are birds of opportunity.

They show no ill effects from lead

Why do you suppose there is a big difference? Is there more hunting in CA?

Could be a lot of reasons to explain (if actual) a difference in the tolerance. Condors have a limited genetic pool - was down to 22 birds only a few decades ago. They're also much bigger - this scale may make them less tolerant to the performance loss. It could mean that they eat the entire carcass, lead and all, more often than a smaller bird that just picks at it.

"Since they do not have a sense of smell,[39] they spot these corpses by looking for other scavengers, like eagles and smaller vultures, the latter of which cannot rip through the tougher hides of these larger animals with the efficiency of the larger condor."

This could explain the difference in lead ingestion.

[KJM 0]

I was lucky enough to have a close up encounter with a condor 2 months ago while hiking in the backcountry of the Los Padres Forest. I think a big problem for these birds is that many of them are raised by humans and they now see us as a easy supply of food. This bird came within 5 feet of us and aggresively challenged us for our backpacks. We decided to leave and it continued to follow us. Im sure it has learned to do the same with hunters, and could easily eat lead by stealing shot game before it could be recovered. They are beautiful animals and I hope we can find a way to share our forests with them

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

One of the studies brought in during the debate was based on the vultures here. They, like the condors, are birds of opportunity.

They show no ill effects from lead

Why do you suppose there is a big difference? Is there more hunting in CA?

Could be a lot of reasons to explain (if actual) a difference in the tolerance. Condors have a limited genetic pool - was down to 22 birds only a few decades ago. They're also much bigger - this scale may make them less tolerant to the performance loss. It could mean that they eat the entire carcass, lead and all, more often than a smaller bird that just picks at it.

"Since they do not have a sense of smell,[39] they spot these corpses by looking for other scavengers, like eagles and smaller vultures, the latter of which cannot rip through the tougher hides of these larger animals with the efficiency of the larger condor."

This could explain the difference in lead ingestion.

Yes and thanks
There could be many reasons but none are known for sure
I could see the argument for banning lead in areas the condors frequent.

But not a reason for throwing out the baby with the bath water

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[oldwomanc6 38]

Quote

Quote

Quote

One of the studies brought in during the debate was based on the vultures here. They, like the condors, are birds of opportunity.

They show no ill effects from lead

Why do you suppose there is a big difference? Is there more hunting in CA?

Could be a lot of reasons to explain (if actual) a difference in the tolerance. Condors have a limited genetic pool - was down to 22 birds only a few decades ago. They're also much bigger - this scale may make them less tolerant to the performance loss. It could mean that they eat the entire carcass, lead and all, more often than a smaller bird that just picks at it.

"Since they do not have a sense of smell,[39] they spot these corpses by looking for other scavengers, like eagles and smaller vultures, the latter of which cannot rip through the tougher hides of these larger animals with the efficiency of the larger condor."

This could explain the difference in lead ingestion.

Yes and thanks
There could be many reasons but none are known for sure
I could see the argument for banning lead in areas the condors frequent.

But not a reason for throwing out the baby with the bath water

Something else to consider between the two is life expectancy. Do condors live longer (I'm guessing yes)? If so, and I'm not a scientist, the lead has a longer time to accumulate in their bodies, thus wreaking havoc before they might die of other causes.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[lawrocket 3]

California Condors can live easily over 60 years. No more than 20 are over the age of 30 right now, though.

Smaller birsds peck in smaller amounts and are able to eat between shot. A condor takes a big bite and whatever is in that bite goes down - shot included.

It really isn't that difficult to consider. A crocoddile can get a Thompson Gazelle antler lodged in its throat. The same isn't true of a vulture becaise a vulture takes smaller bites.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,623]

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>Iowa did research Extensive Found no scientific reason to ban lead shot

Well, I guess the Iowa Condor will not be going extinct any time soon, then.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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