Why Irish soldiers who fought Hitler hide their medals

[ryoder 1,393]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16287211

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[shropshire 0]

Wow - I'd never heard that - thanks for sharing.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JohnRich 4]

I can understand the Irish not liking Britain back then. But what the heck did the people in power think would become of Ireland if Hitler was successful in conquering Britain?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Interesting. It was a tough issue to be sure. Frankly I don't know why they weren't shot for desertion. People might think that is harsh but desertion is desertion; these were active duty soldiers. Can you imagine if an active duty US soldier left his post to take sides in a war the US was declared neutral in?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I can understand the Irish not liking Britain back then. But what the heck did the people in power think would become of Ireland if Hitler was successful in conquering Britain?

Probably looked a lot like the devil and the deep blue sea to many. At least the facists were Catholic. I'm sure many Irish felt (not without grounds) that they would be able to appeal to Rome for terms.

[DiverMike 5]

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Frankly I don't know why they weren't shot for desertion.

As bad as that sounds, I agree with you in principle - but we don't know the whole story. Maybe those in command gave tacit approval to allow the soldiers to abandon their neutral post to fight in the war with the knowledge they would be blacklisted on return instead of shot.

It is hard to determine exactly what happened nearly 70 years ago.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I can understand the Irish not liking Britain back then. But what the heck did the people in power think would become of Ireland if Hitler was successful in conquering Britain?

Probably looked a lot like the devil and the deep blue sea to many. At least the facists were Catholic. I'm sure many Irish felt (not without grounds) that they would be able to appeal to Rome for terms.

Agreed. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." The Irish were fresh on the tail end of hundreds of years of enmity toward the British; it was a blood feud that ran deep into the marrow and, in part, defined their very being.

Even to this day: There's a (truly) Irish pub/restaurant near where I live. Great selection of Irish food (is that an oxymoron?) on the menu, great Irish beers, illegals with brogues working back in the kitchen; the whole 9 yards. They have live Irish folk bands performing, and the songs that get the greatest gusto from all assembled are the ones that sing about "blowing the English all to hell".

[JohnRich 4]

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Interesting. It was a tough issue to be sure. Frankly I don't know why they weren't shot for desertion. People might think that is harsh but desertion is desertion; these were active duty soldiers. Can you imagine if an active duty US soldier left his post to take sides in a war the US was declared neutral in?

Like the Flying Tigers that went off to fight against the Japanese invasion of China?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

[Andy9o8 0]

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Interesting. It was a tough issue to be sure. Frankly I don't know why they weren't shot for desertion. People might think that is harsh but desertion is desertion; these were active duty soldiers. Can you imagine if an active duty US soldier left his post to take sides in a war the US was declared neutral in?

Like the Flying Tigers that went off to fight against the Japanese invasion of China?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

That was a US-run clandestine operation organized and recruited under express sanction by the President. After said recruitment by the US operatives, and with the approval of the President if they were active or reserve duty, the pilots technically became employees of a private military contractor. Thus, there was no UA, AWOL or desertion; and technically, there was no service in the military of a foreign nation.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Interesting. It was a tough issue to be sure. Frankly I don't know why they weren't shot for desertion. People might think that is harsh but desertion is desertion; these were active duty soldiers. Can you imagine if an active duty US soldier left his post to take sides in a war the US was declared neutral in?

Like the Flying Tigers that went off to fight against the Japanese invasion of China?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

Not quite
From the Wiki:
The 1st American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Chinese Air Force in 1941–1942, famously nicknamed the Flying Tigers, was composed of pilots from the United States Army (USAAF), Navy (USN), and Marine Corps (USMC), recruited under presidential sanction and commanded by Claire Lee Chennault. The ground crew and headquarters staff were likewise mostly recruited from the U.S. military, along with some civilians.
They did not desert.

[jakee 1,257]

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Frankly I don't know why they weren't shot for desertion.

Because Ireland wasn't at war?

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People might think that is harsh but desertion is desertion; these were active duty soldiers.

Hang on, do you think that according to the law they should have been shot, or do you think they should have been shot?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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Even to this day: There's a (truly) Irish pub/restaurant near where I live. Great selection of Irish food (is that an oxymoron?) on the menu, great Irish beers, illegals with brogues working back in the kitchen; the whole 9 yards. They have live Irish folk bands performing, and the songs that get the greatest gusto from all assembled are the ones that sing about "blowing the English all to hell".

Meh, same with the Welsh and the Scotch. And the average Irishman living in the US probably takes it a lot more seriously than the average Irishman living in Eire.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Hang on, do you think that according to the law they should have been shot, or do you think they should have been shot?

I think that according to the law they should have been shot. You may have a point that desertion during peacetimes is often a less onerous crime. The question of threatening the country's neutral position may also be pertinent (even more so for John's example of US Airmen attacking Japan with permission from the CiC).

edited to add: Not that I think the American example places culpability on the Airmen, but rather on the Nation.

[jakee 1,257]

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Hang on, do you think that according to the law they should have been shot, or do you think they should have been shot?

I think that according to the law they should have been shot. You may have a point that desertion during peacetimes is often a less onerous crime.

Some brief research shows that under Irish law at the time desertion not on active service was punishable with internment or less, and punishment on active service with death or less. Active service defined as in combat or per a declaration from the Executive.

Given that a state of emergency existed for the duration of the war the armed forces may well have been declared to be on active duty - assuming they were, do you think the maximum punishment should have been applied?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Given that a state of emergency existed for the duration of the war the armed forces may well have been declared to be on active duty - assuming they were, do you think the maximum punishment should have been applied?

Notwithstanding my views on capital punishment, it would depend upon the true position of the Irish government. Were they really in support of the allies but not saying so for public relations reasons, or were they truly in a cold peace with UK similar to what exists between, for example, Georgia and Russia.
I really don't know the nuances of the relationship between Ireland and UK in those days. I remember well the schizophrenic relationship they had in the '70s when, despite the tensions of the 'troubles,' UK was Ireland's largest trading partner. It could be that Ireland was not unhappy with the help Britain received, but punished the men for pandering purposes only. Alternatively a victorious Germany could have taken a very dim view of Irish servicemen fighting against them, to the severe detriment of all Ireland.
One thing I am certain of though is that summery punishment rarely serves the just. If these men broke Irish law (and they almost certainly did) then they should have been prosecuted under Irish law, or left unmolested. This is a principle of civilized societies that is being abandoned by our governments today, much to our (and our children's) peril.

[Skyrad 0]

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I can understand the Irish not liking Britain back then. But what the heck did the people in power think would become of Ireland if Hitler was successful in conquering Britain?

Ireland was neutral and believed that it would remain so with friendly relationships with Germany. Interestingly Ireland maintained POW camps for both British and German aviators who were downed in Ireland.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Interesting. It was a tough issue to be sure. Frankly I don't know why they weren't shot for desertion. People might think that is harsh but desertion is desertion; these were active duty soldiers. Can you imagine if an active duty US soldier left his post to take sides in a war the US was declared neutral in?

The Irish had had a belly full of military executions. There was no support for them and it would have likely led to massive civil unrest. Back in 1916 the Easter Uprising was largely vilified especially in the Dublin area. When the rebels surrendered in the GPO the residents of Dublin threw the contents of their chamber pots over the captured men. However the British still brutalised from WWI decided that the best form of punishment was to execute without any mercy the rebels. The Irish people were so incensed at this that the rebels became martyrs who are celebrated to this day.
Military execution of political prisoners runs contrary to the Irish psyche.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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I can understand the Irish not liking Britain back then. But what the heck did the people in power think would become of Ireland if Hitler was successful in conquering Britain?

Probably looked a lot like the devil and the deep blue sea to many. At least the facists were Catholic. I'm sure many Irish felt (not without grounds) that they would be able to appeal to Rome for terms.

Agreed. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." The Irish were fresh on the tail end of hundreds of years of enmity toward the British; it was a blood feud that ran deep into the marrow and, in part, defined their very being.

Even to this day: There's a (truly) Irish pub/restaurant near where I live. Great selection of Irish food (is that an oxymoron?) on the menu, great Irish beers, illegals with brogues working back in the kitchen; the whole 9 yards. They have live Irish folk bands performing, and the songs that get the greatest gusto from all assembled are the ones that sing about "blowing the English all to hell".

Most of that is for the Americans, in Ireland itself almost nowhere plays old rebel songs these days and those that do are full of American tourists. Recruitment into the British Army of Irish recruits has increased by ten per cent a year for the last six years.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/record-numbers-of-irish-recruits-join-british-army-2597027.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/irish-recruits-flock-to-join-british-army-13960288.html

Following the Queens visit to Ireland this year RTE made a celebratory DVD which has sold out across Ireland. Being a Brit who has lived in Ireland for years (North and South) I can honestly say that while some anti Brit sentiment exists in some individuals by and large the vast majority of Irish are very friendly towards the British and vice versa.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[shropshire 0]

Seems a number of our American chums see the world through tinted glasses (either Green or Orange)

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

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Seems a number of our American chums see the world through tinted glasses (either Green or Orange)

To be fair the Republicans employed a great propergander machine and played on and encouraged such sentiments among the diaspora and their decedents to gain both political and financial support over the past four decades. Alls fair in love and war

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 0]

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Seems a number of our American chums see the world through tinted glasses (either Green or Orange)

To be fair the Republicans employed a great propergander machine and played on and encouraged such sentiments among the diaspora and their decedents to gain both political and financial support over the past four decades.

And it worked, big time.
"Playing to the sentiments of the diaspora" is a technique that was honed to a fine art in the US among just about every ethnic group you can imagine (a few more than others).

[Skyrad 0]

The British used it to great effect for a couple of centuries at least. How else were Australian, Kiwi and Canadian farm boys encouraged to travel to Europe to fight and die en mass against the Hun?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[JohnRich 4]

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I can understand the Irish not liking Britain back then. But what the heck did the people in power think would become of Ireland if Hitler was successful in conquering Britain?

Ireland was neutral and believed that it would remain so with friendly relationships with Germany. Interestingly Ireland maintained POW camps for both British and German aviators who were downed in Ireland.

Even after Neville Chamberlain's experience with Hitler's promises? Sheesh!

[Skyrad 0]

Chamberlin was without a personal experience of long standing support from the Germans, unlike the Irish Republicans.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca