Climategate II

[brenthutch 390]

Amazon where are your buddies? Feeling lonely?

[billvon 2,476]

>Really, did it peak, or was it litigation, legislation that has caused it to decline?

Really, it peaked. All the legislation (or lack thereof) cannot make a declining output well produce more.

It's really pretty simple. Most people who drive a car understand that eventually the tank runs dry. You can move the outlet to get another few ounces out of it, maybe even wipe the tank with a rag and squeeze the remaining few ml into the fuel line - but eventually you're going to be, for all intents and purposes, out of gas, and all the laws and all the technology in the world isn't going to get any significant additional amount out of that tank. It's empty.

We're not making new oil at a rate we can use it - it takes millions of years to make new fossil fuels, and we are going through it all in decades. So that means we are going to run out of cheap oil. It already happened here in the US, and production is now declining. We'll be able to 'squeeze the rag' and get some more oil out of unconventional deposits, but eventually they will be dry as well. There is no way around that.

Thus the only solution is to reduce our consumption at the same rate that our production declines. And that is eminently doable - but it will be expensive and difficult, and the longer we wait the more expensive it will be. So the question becomes - how expensive do you want it to be?

>Well I would think Mother Earth is continuing to make OIL as we blog along.

Agreed! And if your point is that we should reduce our consumption to the rate at which it is recreated I am all for that. It's about 1/2000th of our current consumption, though, so again we better get to work.

[Amazon 7]

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lets try to stick to the topic of the post

You did read the part in the link about sulfates and SO2 right?

A bit more reading is in order for you on SO2 me thinks.

[Amazon 7]

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Amazon where are your buddies? Feeling lonely?

I have no idea.

Perhaps we could stick to the subject you selected for GW denier trolling.

[lawrocket 3]

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Tell me what happens to single celled plants and animals when you change the pH of their environment?

Same thing that happens when you change the salinity of an environment. Some organisms prosper and others do not.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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Tell me what happens to single celled plants and animals when you change the pH of their environment?

Same thing that happens when you change the salinity of an environment. Some organisms prosper and others do not.

Bummer for the organisms... and those that feed on them.

[brenthutch 390]

So Bill you agree that the whole AGW thing is a big hoax or at least poor science.

[billvon 2,476]

>So Bill you agree that the whole AGW thing is a big hoax or at least poor science.

Nope. AGW is quite simple science. Politicians on both sides - deniers and alarmists - excel at distoring the science to fit their own agendas.

But the science is simple. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, we are increasing its concentration in our atmosphere by burning fossil fuels, and temperatures, on average, are going up. All provable, all simple science.

[brenthutch 390]

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>So Bill you agree that the whole AGW thing is a big hoax or at least poor science.

Nope. AGW is quite simple science. Politicians on both sides - deniers and alarmists - excel at distoring the science to fit their own agendas.

But the science is simple. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, we are increasing its concentration in our atmosphere by burning fossil fuels, and
temperatures, on average, are going up. All provable, all simple science.

Simple science like this?
http://westinstenv.org/sosf/2010/05/30/undraping-the-blackbody-model/

[billvon 2,476]

>Simple science like this?

No.

[brenthutch 390]

I know that this may blow your mind but the earths climate systems are not as simple as a terranium filled with CO2 and a shop light. Not as simple as we would all like.

[billvon 2,476]

>I know that this may blow your mind but the earths climate systems are not as
>simple as a terranium filled with CO2 and a shop light. Not as simple as we would all
>like.

Yep. Yet deniers are basing their entire religion on the idea that increasing the amount of one gas in our atmosphere by 50% cannot possibly ever have any conceivable impact on our climate. Even though the Earth's climate is a complex system with all the gases that make up the atmosphere playing a significant role. Can you imagine anyone that dumb?

[brenthutch 390]

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>Simple science like this?

No.

How about this?

http://www.alexmeske.com/Essays/globalwarming2.htm

[brenthutch 390]

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>I know that this may blow your mind but the earths climate systems are not as
>simple as a terranium filled with CO2 and a shop light. Not as simple as we would all
>like.

Yep. Yet deniers are basing their entire religion on the idea that increasing the amount of one gas in our atmosphere by 50% cannot possibly ever have any conceivable impact on our climate. Even though the Earth's climate is a complex system with all the gases that make up the atmosphere playing a significant role. Can you imagine anyone that dumb?

Percentages can be tricky things. If I told you that ebola deaths have gone up 500% you may be allarmed but if i said that ebolla deaths went from 1 person on the planet to 5 people on the planet you might not be so worried. Just replace ebola with CO2 and you may get the idea.

[lawrocket 3]

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I use CO2 in my CORAL REEF tank to help maintain alkalinity and calcium levels.

Dump some SO2 in there.. just for grins.

interestingly, the idea has been floated as a way to combat global warming. If global warming is, in fact, the greatest risk, then SO2 aerosols would be the biggest bang for the buck in cooling us down. It's all the other problems that it causes....

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 18]

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>I know that this may blow your mind but the earths climate systems are not as
>simple as a terranium filled with CO2 and a shop light. Not as simple as we would all
>like.

Yep. Yet deniers are basing their entire religion on the idea that increasing the amount of one gas in our atmosphere by 50% cannot possibly ever have any conceivable impact on our climate. Even though the Earth's climate is a complex system with all the gases that make up the atmosphere playing a significant role. Can you imagine anyone that dumb?

The dumb ones would be those who let the alarmists brow beat them into being quite with statements like yours here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[brenthutch 390]

"So the question becomes - how expensive do you want it to be?"

It is not a question of how expensive I want a product, it is what the market determines the value of that product to be.

[billvon 2,476]

>If I told you that ebola deaths have gone up 500% you may be allarmed but if i said
>that ebolla deaths went from 1 person on the planet to 5 people on the planet you
>might not be so worried.

OK let's go with the human analogy.

CO2 has risen from about 280 to about 400ppm over the past 150 years. There are about 6.8 billion people on the planet. If 280ppm of them were dying, and it rose to 400ppm, then about 1.5 million more people a year will be dying.

If, say, China was killing 1.5 million people across the world (including hundreds of thousands in the US) to make cheaper patio furniture - would you be worried?

[billvon 2,476]

>t is not a question of how expensive I want a product, it is what the market
>determines the value of that product to be.

Then no problem. Let the market set the price of oil. Oil gets scarce, prices climb, people can't afford to drive, demand goes down. Problem solved.

[brenthutch 390]

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>If I told you that ebola deaths have gone up 500% you may be allarmed but if i said
>that ebolla deaths went from 1 person on the planet to 5 people on the planet you
>might not be so worried.

OK let's go with the human analogy.

CO2 has risen from about 280 to about 400ppm over the past 150 years. There are about 6.8 billion people on the planet. If 280ppm of them were dying, and it rose to 400ppm, then about 1.5 million more people a year will be dying.

If, say, China was killing 1.5 million people across the world (including hundreds of thousands in the US) to make cheaper patio furniture - would you be worried?

You are assuming that the effects of elevated CO2 levels are deleterious and as we all know this is far from certain. Apply the margin of error in the climate models to your scenario and you will find that your 1.5 million quickly drop to 150.

[brenthutch 390]

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>t is not a question of how expensive I want a product, it is what the market
>determines the value of that product to be.

Then no problem. Let the market set the price of oil. Oil gets scarce, prices climb, people can't afford to drive, demand goes down. Problem solved.

Amen brother, now your picking up what I am laying down. The market can be smarter than any of us.

[rushmc 18]

<>Then no problem. Let the market set the price of oil.>

that IS a great idea
We need to get the gov out of the way so the artificially high prices of energy in the country can adjust naturally

When oil gets scarce, things will take care of themselves

In the mean time the energy dept, the Obama admin and the epa need to be brought under control to allow this to happen

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,476]

>You are assuming that the effects of elevated CO2 levels are deleterious . . .

No, I'm not. You used an analogy between CO2 levels and human death to demonstrate how inconsequential those death rates might be. I replaced your example with actual numbers.

>Apply the margin of error in the climate models to your scenario and you will find that
>your 1.5 million quickly drop to 150.

The margin of error in CO2 measurements is +/-2.2% for the Mauna Loa measurements.

[billvon 2,476]

>Amen brother, now your picking up what I am laying down. The market can be
>smarter than any of us.

Yes, it can be. For example, a sudden oil scarcity would cause a global recession that makes 1929 look like a boom year. That would greatly reduce demand, since many fewer people would be working or eating farmed food or heating their homes. It would eventually reduce costs as well, as a severe enough recession generally causes deflation.

The question is - is that a good goal to work towards?

[rushmc 18]

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>Amen brother, now your picking up what I am laying down. The market can be
>smarter than any of us.

Yes, it can be. For example, a sudden oil scarcity would cause a global recession that makes 1929 look like a boom year. That would greatly reduce demand, since many fewer people would be working or eating farmed food or heating their homes. It would eventually reduce costs as well, as a severe enough recession generally causes deflation.

The question is - is that a good goal to work towards?

Of course that is not a good goal

but the fact is you base the premise of you point on a false analogy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln