OOOOPS

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Do you really believe that humans can control Mother Nature? If yes maybe I can interest you in a nice late summer coastal beach front time share property in Bangladesh?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lawrocket 3]

Amazon had me too busy with her failure to answer a question. I'll leave it at that. Answering the question I posed would cause her to choose between two conflicting statements.

But with regard to the North Atlantic Oscillation, It's not like I haven't discussed it. Check post 165 here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4030752;search_string=oscillation;#4030752

Kallend has been irritated at times with my reference to oscillations. I'm not saying that I'm correct, but the article seems to at least give credence to my skepticism.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mnealtx 0]

Earlier in that thread, I had posted info from a paper that showed doublt the correlation between AMO/PDO and temps as between CO2 and temps.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

Yeah. Often times when it gets past the emotions and insults there can be some good information passed.

And yeah, I'll admit I get caught up, too..

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,683]

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Do you really believe that humans can control Mother Nature? If yes maybe I can interest you in a nice late summer coastal beach front time share property in Bangladesh?

Yes, the ozone depletion is a prime example. The Colorado River is another. Acid rain is another.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,476]

>Do you really believe that humans can control Mother Nature?

Yep. Not always intentionally. (Google the Dust Bowl for an unfortunate example of that.)

[lawrocket 3]

Both offer fine examples. to what extent, however, is the involvement of human activity responsible. Yes, there IS anthropogenic factor in both, but:

(1) Ozone: the ozone hole grows bigger in winter due to photoelectric effect creating ozone. CFC's are catalysts that break them up so it grows. Variation of the hole in the winter months is natural. CFC's just add to it. Anthropogenic effect. (And cheers to Dupont to pointing this out when they had patented an alternative to freon).

(2) The dust bowl. But for plowing over so much of the natural vegetation the 30's would have merely been a long and particularly nasty drought, so there would have been some shock and significant damage to agriculture. The bared soil, however, caused a nasty wind to turn into massive - and deadly - dust storms. So it's again natural variability with human activity giving it a kick in the ass.

I think it's what's happening with global climate.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,476]

>I think it's what's happening with global climate.

Agreed. And like the dust bowl, a heat wave that might have just been a heat wave becomes disastrous. An early spring that happens occasionally happens more often - enough to kill off some species that rely on the changing of the seasons. A drought that means almost no water for crops now means no water for crops. Same variability, just with a bias towards being slightly hotter overall.

Do we want to live with all that? Maybe the answer is yes. Maybe cheap energy is worth more frequent droughts, and earlier springs, and farms that can't quite make it any more. But that's a decision that is better to make up front, before you sign up for it - not (to use your example) after you can't afford the mortgage any more.

[kallend 1,683]

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Both offer fine examples. to what extent, however, is the involvement of human activity responsible. Yes, there IS anthropogenic factor in both, but:

(1) Ozone: the ozone hole grows bigger in winter due to photoelectric effect creating ozone. CFC's are catalysts that break them up so it grows. Variation of the hole in the winter months is natural. CFC's just add to it. Anthropogenic effect. (And cheers to Dupont to pointing this out when they had patented an alternative to freon).

(2) The dust bowl. But for plowing over so much of the natural vegetation the 30's would have merely been a long and particularly nasty drought, so there would have been some shock and significant damage to agriculture. The bared soil, however, caused a nasty wind to turn into massive - and deadly - dust storms. So it's again natural variability with human activity giving it a kick in the ass.

I think it's what's happening with global climate.

And, of course, the once mighty Colorado River no longer reaches the ocean, thanks to human activity.

Extinction of many species (dodo, mastodon, mammoth...) also brought about or aided by human activity.

Claiming that humans can't affect nature is just plain silly.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Claiming that humans can't affect nature is just plain silly.

I never said humans did not affected nature. You want to stop humans from pumping cancer causing carcinogens in our water and our air, then I am all ears. But I do take the stance that humans can not control nature in terms of controlling precipitation, temperatures or wind. But if you claim to have the ability to control the precipitation, temperatures and wind could you do us here in Southern Alberta a huge favor? You see we have these awesome mountains really close to us. Could you please make it snow in our mountains. I would love to get an early start on the ski season and yet keep things dry and warm in the city (commuting around the city in a blizzard really sucks ass).

When do you want to book your time share at one of our coastal beach front Bangladesh properties? I hear the May through June as well as the September through November months are to die for.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

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Do you really believe that humans can control Mother Nature? If yes maybe I can interest you in a nice late summer coastal beach front time share property in Bangladesh?

Bangladesh is going to provide some great dive locations in the not very distant future... I wonder where all those people are going to emigrate to???? I doubt if the Pakistani's or the Indians will want them....

[Amazon 7]

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>Do you really believe that humans can control Mother Nature?

Yep. Not always intentionally. (Google the Dust Bowl for an unfortunate example of that.)

I think we are seeing a VERY nice reprise of that in Texas this year.... just a few days ago.

If enough droughts happen across the southeast.. I gues desertification at that latitude was just more "cost of doing business"

[lawrocket 3]

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>Do you really believe that humans can control Mother Nature?

Yep. Not always intentionally. (Google the Dust Bowl for an unfortunate example of that.)

I think we are seeing a VERY nice reprise of that in Texas this year.... just a few days ago.

If enough droughts happen across the southeast.. I gues desertification at that latitude was just more "cost of doing business"

When the Texas desert acts like the Texas desert it's called desertification.

Did you hear about the snowification of the high Sierras last winter? And the riverification of the Collumbia? And the lakeification of Powell?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,683]

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Claiming that humans can't affect nature is just plain silly.

I never said humans did not affected nature. You want to stop humans from pumping cancer causing carcinogens in our water and our air, then I am all ears. But I do take the stance that humans can not control nature in terms of controlling precipitation, temperatures or wind. But if you claim to have the ability to control the precipitation, temperatures and wind could you do us here in Southern Alberta a huge favor? You see we have these awesome mountains really close to us. Could you please make it snow in our mountains. I would love to get an early start on the ski season and yet keep things dry and warm in the city (commuting around the city in a blizzard really sucks ass).

When do you want to book your time share at one of our coastal beach front Bangladesh properties? I hear the May through June as well as the September through November months are to die for.

Nice beckpedal but untimately spoiled by silly confusion of weather with climate.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,683]

Words about the validity of the study from DENIERs. Of course, this was written when they thought the BEST results would turn out the other way

"And, I’m prepared to accept whatever result they produce, even if it proves my premise wrong. I’m taking this bold step because the method has promise. So let’s not pay attention to the little yippers who want to tear it down before they even see the results. I haven’t seen the global result, nobody has, not even the home team, but the method isn’t the madness that we’ve seen from NOAA, NCDC, GISS, and CRU, and, there aren’t any monetary strings attached to the result that I can tell. If the project was terminated tomorrow, nobody loses jobs, no large government programs get shut down, and no dependent programs crash either. That lack of strings attached to funding, plus the broad mix of people involved especially those who have previous experience in handling large data sets gives me greater confidence in the result being closer to a bona fide ground truth than anything we’ve seen yet. Dr. Fred Singer also gives a tentative endorsement of the methods.

My gut feeling? The possibility that we may get the elusive “grand unified temperature” for the planet is higher than ever before. Let’s give it a chance.

I’ve already said way too much, but it was finally a moment of peace where I could put my thoughts about BEST to print. Climate related website owners, I give you carte blanche to repost this."

wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/06/briggs-on-berkeleys-best-plus-my-thoughts-from-my-visit-there/

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,683]

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Temps DOWN since 1998 while CO2 is STILL rising... best not hold your breath waiting on your version of "reality" to happen.

Funny, just a few posts ago you wrote
"Skeptics aren't saying the earth hasn't gotten warmer. "

Change your tune very quickly, don't you?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Nice beckpedal but untimately spoiled by silly confusion of weather with climate.

What the heck is a "beckpedal"? Are you inventing words again (something that likely works for you when you are busy indoctrinating young and impressionable minds into your Leftist ideology) or did you actually mean "backpedal" but there is a disconnect between your brain and your fingers? I won't hold the disconnect against you, it happens to the best of us. However if you were NOT trying to invent a new word and instead really meant backpedal, what am I back pedaling from? I stand by my original words that humans can not control nature, nature as it refers to our climate. By the way since when have temperatures and precipitation ever not be considered part of the planet's climate? Are you making things up again?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mnealtx 0]

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Temps DOWN since 1998 while CO2 is STILL rising... best not hold your breath waiting on your version of "reality" to happen.

Funny, just a few posts ago you wrote
"Skeptics aren't saying the earth hasn't gotten warmer. "

Change your tune very quickly, don't you?

Haven't changed my tune at all, perfesser.... last I looked, current temp is still above the arbitrary "norm" that Mann chose.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

Briggs is a statistician. I note from reading your post that Briggs dropped by to ask about it. Apparently he was given some very open access to what the BEST team was doing.

Statisticians have been the key people attacking the climate scientists. The British investigations or CRU Anglia mentioned that statisticians should have greater involvement in cimate teams. And that it's gotta be more interdisciplinary.

This is the benefit. Those of us who are "skeptics" are skeptical because of claims that aren't supported or those that are based upon assumptions. We want to go deeper into these claims.

The BEST Team is not a team of climate scientists. It is a team of scientists and while verifying some things are proposing an alternative theory. Alternative causation that appears to be consistent with BOTH the skeptics and the proponents.

So who is the winner here? We don't know. Maybe it's my opinion that the climate is warming, humans have some involvement, but that the warming is likely to be negligible in the middle future and the negative impacts will balance out with positive impacts.

But midrange impacts on climate are dominated by oscillations - some of which we are only beginning to understand the effects of and not even close to understanding the causative factors and mechanics of them (hence, Hansen predicted we'd be in El Nino conditions by now, progressing to a strong El Nino, but we're in La Nina - "It's not a sure bet but it is probable").

Doesn't this strongly suggest a fantastic opprtunity for new research? Ideas that aren't necessarily new but are worthy of checking up on. It wasn't till the 1990's that it was figured out Einstein was on to something with his Cosmic Constant.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[StreetScooby 5]

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"Climategate", in 2009, involved claims global warming had been exaggerated.

Showing pictures of polar bears floating on small pieces of ice, and claiming they're drowning because of AGW is not only an exaggeration, but a gross exaggeration.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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and you will still be mouthing ITS NOT SETTLED

What's not settled? The magnitude of man made induced change, the effect that'll actually have on our environment, and the time frame in which that will happen are most certainly not settled. Not that I've seen, yet.

We are all engines of karma