Religion and Politics...

[jakee 1,280]

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looks to me that ....

...you're starting to catch on.

You know you still need to explain how 'that is not x' and 'nothing is x' represents a change of opinion. I'd hate to think you were running away.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[devildog 0]

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Yeah, exactly. You're defining the problem in terms beneficial to your argument and defining the solution in terms beneficial to your argument, and then claiming that because you say it fits that you don't need to explain it.

Just because you difine god as having those characteristics does not mean it makes any shred of sense.

Hold the horses. You (the generic you) want to argue that the God of the OT/NT doesn't exist. Fine. To attack that belief, one argument used is, "Well, who created your God?" So, to properly answer, we look to see what the God of the OT/NT is in terms characteristics. And one of those characteristics is, God is eternal. It's not like the OT/NT is silent on this, and us pesky, dumb Christians said, "Oh no, we're in a pinch. Quick! Make God eternal!" This has been a standard belief throughout all of the texts. No one just made up the eternal trait on the spot to solve some "Who created God?" question.

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Explain why god is the only thing that could exist 'out of time'.

I have no idea what else exists or does not exist outside of time. I know this Universe is bound by it though.

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And let me guess, your answer to the question you pose is 'No'? Quelle surprise. Allow me to refer you back to the start of this post.

Correct. I say no, because my beliefs on what God is like is that God is eternal. No beginning or end. Still not sure why people insist on saying believing in god(s) necessitates believing that god(s) must have a beginning.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[jakee 1,280]

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You (the generic you) want to argue that the God of the OT/NT doesn't exist. Fine. To attack that belief, one argument used is, "Well, who created your God?"

No. You want to argue that it must exist. to support that belief you claim that everything needs a creator. Then you try and prevaricate around and define away the logical follow up question 'what created the creator'.

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So, to properly answer, we look to see what the God of the OT/NT is in terms characteristics. And one of those characteristics is, God is eternal. It's not like the OT/NT is silent on this, and us pesky, dumb Christians said, "Oh no, we're in a pinch. Quick! Make God eternal!" This has been a standard belief throughout all of the texts. No one just made up the eternal trait on the spot to solve some "Who created God?" question.

I'm curious how the bible says that god exists independently of time. I'd be grateful if you could point it out to me.

Regardless though, no matter where it was said, just saying it does not convincingly make it so.

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I have no idea what else exists or does not exist outside of time.

Great. You have succesfully torpedoed the argument that there must be a creator and it must be god.

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Still not sure why people insist on saying believing in god(s) necessitates believing that god(s) must have a beginning.

Because other people insist on justifying belief in god by saying that everything must have a beginning.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[devildog 0]

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I'm curious how the bible says that god exists independently of time. I'd be grateful if you could point it out to me.

Gen 21:33, Deu 33:27, Isa 26:4, Jer 10:10, Hab 3:6, etc all refer to God being eternal

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I have no idea what else exists or does not exist outside of time.

Great. You have succesfully torpedoed the argument that there must be a creator and it must be god.

Not really. I merely said there might be things outside of time beyond God. That says nothing to something that is created needs a Creator.

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Still not sure why people insist on saying believing in god(s) necessitates believing that god(s) must have a beginning.

Because other people insist on justifying belief in god by saying that everything must have a beginning.

You're missing an important part. It's not that everything must have a beginning. It's anything with a beginning must have a cause. The universe has a beginning, therefore must have a cause.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[jakee 1,280]

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I'm curious how the bible says that god exists independently of time. I'd be grateful if you could point it out to me.

Gen 21:33, Deu 33:27, Isa 26:4, Jer 10:10, Hab 3:6, etc all refer to God being eternal

And none of them are relevant to the question I asked.

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You're missing an important part. It's not that everything must have a beginning. It's anything with a beginning must have a cause. The universe has a beginning, therefore must have a cause.

Nope, it's what you're missing that's important.

You don't know what else exists out of time, you don't know what kind of infinite cycle the universe may be involved in, you have no beginning before which there could have been nothing but god.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Marinus 0]

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Hmmmmm...I can see it now...

God: Well, Abraham, let's talk. Let me explain Quantum Mechanics to you.

Abraham: Huh?!?

Yeah, I know that argument, but people in the Bible could handle talking snakes, worldwide floods, rains of fire, emission free burning bushes, splitting seas etc. I'm sure that they could handle modern science too.

And of course god didn't have to start with QM, he could have explained things from the basics. Things like the spherical shape of the earth, the true age of the earth and the fact that there were once dinosaurs aren't that hard to understand.

This is also a good place to remind you that the bible contains a lot of claims that are scientifically incorrect. For instance: creation, the great flood, pi=3, the flat earth, bats are birds. It even contains claims that people could have observed as being wrong at the time f.e. : The moon being the light of the night. In fact the moon is visible both day and night, I think it's only visible at night around 50% of the time.

Lastly the bible does contain passages that make no sense. Why not include basic mechanics, the laws of thermodynamics and the theory of evolution in Revelations? It's not like it would have made that book more vague for say the medieval reader.

[devildog 0]

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And none of them are relevant to the question I asked.

You asked, where does the bible say "god exists independently of time". The Hebrew in those passages is olam, which is exactly that. More over both Jewish and Christian theology has believed God to be that since the beginning. St. Augustine wrote about it as well (and others). God does not have a creation myth whatsoever, unlike other beliefs of the time(s). So on and so forth. If you really want to nail your point, you're going to need more than "nuh uh!" Citing some portion of text, teaching, Church father, Jewish rabbi, etc. that said, "God is in time / has a beginning" would be a start.

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You don't know what else exists out of time, you don't know what kind of infinite cycle the universe may be involved in, you have no beginning before which there could have been nothing but god.

Even the tops of the secular science world believes time had a beginning. The infinite time loop creates a huge problem just in and of itself, that being, how long did it take for us to get where we are? Infinite. If we're going to really get nit picky, we really don't "know" anything other than our experience exists. We can't really be 100% sure of anything past that. So yes, every honest theist out there will say, "I don't know with 100% certainty about God" but looking around, we find it much more likely than not. But back to the original, your claim of, "You don't know what else exists out of time, you don't know what kind of infinite cycle the universe may be involved in," just reinforces where the argument came from. The argument is, things with a beginning need a creator (something being created can't be created from truly nothing). Now, some believe that creator is God/gods. Others suggest, like you, that maybe its something else that exists outside of time. At the very best for the atheist, these two theories are on equal ground. So it seems a little silly to slam the theist for a belief (simply that some higher power is ultimately responsible for this universe) that the atheist can't readily trump.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[popsjumper 2]

Well, yes. If you are looking for the Bible to be a science text...well, I don't understand why anyone would do that. Just another misdirection to support the religiophobes rantings.

Let's say it is a science text. You would expect the people of that day to understand what we know today? You would expect the people of the day to use the same language to describe events that you would use today? You would expect that science text to contain the same info as today's books?

I think it's a mistake to project your perception of the world onto the people living all that time ago.


OK, again, let's say it is a science text. Can you point to any science text that is definitive for all time? You do understand that science is a dynamic process of progressive learning, right?

What you belive or not believe is your business.

Listening to the religiophobes trying to stuff anti-religion down others throats is...well, disgusting on the one hand and fucking hilarious on the other.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[winsor 192]

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Well, yes. If you are looking for the Bible to be a science text...well, I don't understand why anyone would do that. Just another misdirection to support the religiophobes rantings.

Look, if someone wants to be reigious, fine. I really don't care who or what one might choose to sleep with, either.

OTOH, when people of one group or another seek to impose their stance on me, I have a problem with that.

The fact that I am not fascinated by someone's sexuality (or lack thereof), or the details of their relationahip with one imaginary friend or another, is not a matter of phobia - it is simply too much information.

If someone says "I'm Episcopalian" or "I'm gay," fine. If they want to further bend my ear about how every other religion has it wrong, or how their sexuality is truly wonderful, they have lost their audience - it just is not my concern.

Having lived around religious people and folks of varying sexuality my whole life, I reserve the right to have an opinion on the subject. In most cases, the short form is "it's not my bag," and that covers it.

If someone gets evangelistic on me, or if some guy assumes I am simply playing hard-to-get, I am given to being more blunt.

When people make the mistake of trying to justify delusions by "logic," they make themselves too easy targets. Saying "I believe" is fine, but saying "it is the 'truth' because..." is over the line.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Marinus 0]

There's nothing religiophobic in taking the bible literally and concluding the book is full of utter nonsense and discard it as a text that's only important because it's old and one third of the world believes it's special. It clearly wasn't inspired by some superior intelligence, it's just the rantings of a tribe of savages that were the lowbrows in a time were other people were much more advanced.

But besides that, people indeed have the right to believe what they want, and as long as they keep it out of the lives of others, I don't really care. But I wouldn't expect me to respect the bible. It's one of the more disgusting books I ever read, and it's a blessing that most christians don't seem to know what their god wants and/or act on that.

[jakee 1,280]

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And none of them are relevant to the question I asked.

You asked, where does the bible say "god exists independently of time". The Hebrew in those passages is olam, which is exactly that.

Here are the top to google results for "Olam Hebrew".

http://www.biblepages.web.surftown.se/eg09b.htm

"Again, most bible-versions fail to translate the Hebrew word olam in a correct way. Because of that, they make it seem that many instructions that were given to ancient Israel, would be "for ever" (or "everlasting" or "eternal", or whatever) and would thus apply even today. That is not true, of course. Below, it will be demonstrated from the text of the Old Testament, that the ancient Hebrew word in question, olam (owlam), did not mean "for ever" but simply "a long time", either past or future."

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html

"The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time."

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At the very best for the atheist, these two theories are on equal ground.

You mean at the very best for the theist, and you're still wrong. You're the one proposing a definite, specific answer with no objective evidence whatsoever.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[popsjumper 2]

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any more than I can give you a science experiment that proves the existence of God.

But...but....that's what they are demanding!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[devildog 0]

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And none of them are relevant to the question I asked.

You asked, where does the bible say "god exists independently of time". The Hebrew in those passages is olam, which is exactly that.

Here are the top to google results for "Olam Hebrew".

http://www.biblepages.web.surftown.se/eg09b.htm

"Again, most bible-versions fail to translate the Hebrew word olam in a correct way. Because of that, they make it seem that many instructions that were given to ancient Israel, would be "for ever" (or "everlasting" or "eternal", or whatever) and would thus apply even today. That is not true, of course. Below, it will be demonstrated from the text of the Old Testament, that the ancient Hebrew word in question, olam (owlam), did not mean "for ever" but simply "a long time", either past or future."

I have a host of lexicons sitting on my shelf as well as on my computer and laptop. I've had to stare at more Hebrew than I'd have ever liked for a dozen lifetimes :). Olam is absolutely eternal when it is modifying the noun God. It can mean a host of things, just like in English words can have different meanings on context. Olam can, depending on context, range from an age, to an undetermined time, to completely perpetual / eternal / ageless (as it has always been applied to God. Again, this theological belief has been long standing, has been written on and considered "always true" for thousands of years. If you want to argue that rabbis and Church fathers viewed the "eternal God" as one that was not timeless, you are arguing against history.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[jakee 1,280]

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And none of them are relevant to the question I asked.

You asked, where does the bible say "god exists independently of time". The Hebrew in those passages is olam, which is exactly that.

Here are the top to google results for "Olam Hebrew".

http://www.biblepages.web.surftown.se/eg09b.htm

"Again, most bible-versions fail to translate the Hebrew word olam in a correct way. Because of that, they make it seem that many instructions that were given to ancient Israel, would be "for ever" (or "everlasting" or "eternal", or whatever) and would thus apply even today. That is not true, of course. Below, it will be demonstrated from the text of the Old Testament, that the ancient Hebrew word in question, olam (owlam), did not mean "for ever" but simply "a long time", either past or future."

I have a host of lexicons sitting on my shelf as well as on my computer and laptop. I've had to stare at more Hebrew than I'd have ever liked for a dozen lifetimes :). Olam is absolutely eternal when it is modifying the noun God. It can mean a host of things, just like in English words can have different meanings on context. Olam can, depending on context, range from an age, to an undetermined time, to completely perpetual / eternal / ageless (as it has always been applied to God.

Ok. That still doesn't mean it says god doesn't exist in time.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreece 190]

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Ok. That still doesn't mean it says god doesn't exist in time.

Ok, so now you're demanding where in the Bible it says God doesn't exist....what a fuckin' genius.

That's gonna be one hell of a challenge, Jack.

How about sticking to your scruples...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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Lastly the bible does contain passages that make no sense. Why not include basic mechanics, the laws of thermodynamics and the theory of evolution in Revelations? It's not like it would have made that book more vague for say the medieval reader.

I suppose God could reveal himself to you and say, "here Marinus...here's how it is...X = 1 fifth of Jack to the 10th power x Coreece with 4 whores with guns on an island who hate apatheists..." And you'd say, "No God...according to my research, you're wrong!"

...just as a good little apatheist should!

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This is also a good place to remind you that the bible contains a lot of claims that are scientifically incorrect....The moon being the light of the night.

So the moon doesn't give light at night?

It sure helped me out when I was tracking the stinch of death the other night...

I bet at one time in your life you said you'd seen "the sun set" or "the sun rise...." Is it fair I call you an idiotic delusional moron because you didn't say you saw a "beautiful Earth revolution?"

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,280]

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Ok. That still doesn't mean it says god doesn't exist in time.

Ok, so now you're demanding where in the Bible it says God doesn't exist

No.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jclalor 12]

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This is also a good place to remind you that the bible contains a lot of claims that are scientifically incorrect....The moon being the light of the night.

So the moon doesn't give light at night?

It sure helped me out when I was tracking the stinch of death the other night...

I bet at one time in your life you said you'd seen "the sun set" or "the sun rise...." Is it fair I call you an idiotic delusional moron because you didn't say you saw a "beautiful Earth revolution?"

[Coreece 190]

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Ok. That still doesn't mean it says god doesn't exist in time.

Ok, so now you're demanding where in the Bible it says God doesn't exist

No.

It wasn't a question...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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This is also a good place to remind you that the bible contains a lot of claims that are scientifically incorrect....The moon being the light of the night.

So the moon doesn't give light at night?

It sure helped me out when I was tracking the stinch of death the other night...

I bet at one time in your life you said you'd seen "the sun set" or "the sun rise...." Is it fair I call you an idiotic delusional moron because you didn't say you saw a "beautiful Earth revolution?"

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Even a child now knows the moon produces no light.

[jakee 1,280]

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Ok. That still doesn't mean it says god doesn't exist in time.

Ok, so now you're demanding where in the Bible it says God doesn't exist

No.

It wasn't a question...

And it wasn't an answer.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?