Unions

[popsjumper 2]

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Smart owners/managers work to keep the best employees,

And unions prevent that from happening. Ever try to get rid of union deadwood?

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but nothing says they can't run the business as they please.

And today's unions prevent that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[hwt 0]

The UAW is the worst.
They would not even let non union American business perform any manufacturing on GM or Chrysler automobiles.

The UAW drove manufacturing overseas and drove GM to bankruptcy.

What did Obama do for the unions ?

He stole the stockholder's money and gave it to the UAW.
He takes taxpayer money ( most of which is from the non union businesses that the UAW snubbed) and bails out the very people who took GM down,,,

The unions give Obama plenty of cash for his loyal efforts.



Ban all public sector unions... why?
there are no checks and balances on this corrupt system.
Obama must go in 2012 ....

[lawrocket 3]

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how should the chinese authorities treat unions?

However the hell they feel like embracing them. It's China - a different country. They can do what they want. the issue is more along the lines of "How should we treat China?"

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hould they ruthlessly suppress them or embrace them?

How about somewhere in between. There is a massive amount of space in between.

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re unions democratic or anti-democratic?

They are neither. They are consortia of individuals acting together in collusion to affect the price and availability of a service. In one sense, it's the essence of democracy in that a bunch of people can force another person to act in a way that is against the individual's best interest and in favor of the power of numbers (which is mob rule and disrespectful of minorities).

On the other hand it is antidemocratic in that unions limit the size of the mob. Unionization is never put to the vote of the customers of the business, and unions by their nature are exclusive and based upon terms and conditions which make it anti-democratic,

It's the confusion of economic and politics that has made unions a political benefit despite the economic efficiency that is necessary for unions to survive and grow.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[freethefly 6]

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You just made his point.

I fully agreed with his point as I stated that I fully understand why a person enters into business. A friend and I ran a siding business for a couple of years. I ran an embroidery/DTG business for 4 years. I fully understand that the goal is to generate a profit.
So, what is your point, other to pound your chest and claim a quasi-victory?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[DougH 270]

So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[freethefly 6]

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So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more.

JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area. We also used members of the St. Louis Carpenters District Council and paid the wage that the union and area contractors deemed fair. We were also members of the union ourselves. The contractors paid us the amount of our bid and we paid the guys we took on their fair share per the union contract. At $210.00 per square being applied every half hour or so, it was a win-win for everyone. It pays to have quality, knowledgeable people on a crew. Also, the guys we took on knew that they were not permanent as they worked off of the board. We hired what was needed.
In contrast, the last bid we did was on a large apartment community construction project. We won the contract with St. Charles Exteriors.
The project was owned by a developer from Texas. He brought people from Texas to do most of the construction. The majority of the license plates on the site were from Mexico. Communication with his crews were near impossible. The quality was horrendous. If you started at 12 inches on one end of a soffit run, you'll end up either under or over that dimension by the time you got half way through the run. Most areas we would check before starting could not be done due to the sections being out of dimension. As an example, we built all of the bird-boxes per blueprints beforehand. What we found when attempting to install them is they would not fit due to the eaves not being constructed per blueprint dimension.
Throughout the build site mistakes where everywhere. Codes were not followed. The owners work crews were living on the site. They shit and pissed where ever they wished. The place was a mess. It was hard for us to do our job and we would run over in time. It was killing our profit. I'm sure that you realize that time is money.
Eventually, and thankfully, the union was able to shut the job site down. Inspectors failed most of the work that was down by the out of state (out of country) crews as it was sub-standard. OSHA fined the crap out of the owner of the site. A picket line went up to keep anyone and everyone off of the site.
Eventually, the owner caved and no one but union was on the site. Rework was done. Everything was brought up to code. JB, myself, and our crew were able to breeze through our portion unhindered by sloppy work.
Unions ensure quality. Why wouldn't they? If you were not able to perform your job, you were gone. Poor craftsmanship would be a negative for the union.
Popsjumper stated that it was hard to get rid of union deadwood. Not so, in my experience. On a job site, those who did not perform got the ax. At Hussmann, those who did not perform got the ax

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more.

JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area. We also used members of the St. Louis Carpenters District Council and paid the wage that the union and area contractors deemed fair. We were also members of the union ourselves. The contractors paid us the amount of our bid and we paid the guys we took on their fair share per the union contract. At $210.00 per square being applied every half hour or so, it was a win-win for everyone. It pays to have quality, knowledgeable people on a crew. Also, the guys we took on knew that they were not permanent as they worked off of the board. We hired what was needed.
In contrast, the last bid we did was on a large apartment community construction project. We won the contract with St. Charles Exteriors.
The project was owned by a developer from Texas. He brought people from Texas to do most of the construction. The majority of the license plates on the site were from Mexico. Communication with his crews were near impossible. The quality was horrendous. If you started at 12 inches on one end of a soffit run, you'll end up either under or over that dimension by the time you got half way through the run. Most areas we would check before starting could not be done due to the sections being out of dimension. As an example, we built all of the bird-boxes per blueprints beforehand. What we found when attempting to install them is they would not fit due to the eaves not being constructed per blueprint dimension.
Throughout the build site mistakes where everywhere. Codes were not followed. The owners work crews were living on the site. They shit and pissed where ever they wished. The place was a mess. It was hard for us to do our job and we would run over in time. It was killing our profit. I'm sure that you realize that time is money.
Eventually, and thankfully, the union was able to shut the job site down. Inspectors failed most of the work that was down by the out of state (out of country) crews as it was sub-standard. OSHA fined the crap out of the owner of the site. A picket line went up to keep anyone and everyone off of the site.
Eventually, the owner caved and no one but union was on the site. Rework was done. Everything was brought up to code. JB, myself, and our crew were able to breeze through our portion unhindered by sloppy work.
Unions ensure quality. Why wouldn't they? If you were not able to perform your job, you were gone. Poor craftsmanship would be a negative for the union.
Popsjumper stated that it was hard to get rid of union deadwood. Not so, in my experience. On a job site, those who did not perform got the ax. At Hussmann, those who did not perform got the ax

Nice soliloquy, but it doesn't answer his question.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[freethefly 6]

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it doesn't answer his question.

Comprehension is your friend. Find it and buddy up.

JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area... We hired what was needed.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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it doesn't answer his question.

Comprehension is your friend. Find it and buddy up.

JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area... We hired what was needed.

Speaking of comprehension, here is what was asked:

"So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more."

Re-read the above, and try again.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[freethefly 6]

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it doesn't answer his question.

Comprehension is your friend. Find it and buddy up.

JB and I would mostly bid on subcontract jobs with the larger contract companies in the St. Louis/St. Charles area... We hired what was needed.

Speaking of comprehension, here is what was asked:

"So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more."

Re-read the above, and try again.

Once again, my answer was, we hired what was needed. Any person with a reasonable level of comprehension would derived that to mean, yes, he would let go of the crew not needed.

You know, Mike, you do this type of round about arguing with everyone whom you do not like. I'm sick of playing your childish game. Grow up.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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Once again, my answer was, we hired what was needed.

That wasn't what he asked, either.

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Any person with a reasonable level of comprehension would derived that to mean, yes, he would let go of the crew not needed.

And a person that wasn't so focused on pumping up the unions would have just said "I would let go of the un-needed crews". Instead, you glossed over the answer and went on an extended spiel about how the non-union crews were so terrible and the union stepped in to save the universe!!! day!!!

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You know, Mike, you do this type of round about arguing with everyone whom you do not like. I'm sick of playing your childish game. Grow up.

Speaking of childish games, a grownup doesn't take criticism of his argument as a personal attack.

Given that YOU (yet again) were the one that started with the insults, maybe you should take your own advice.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[weekender 0]

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my point still stands. the company exist for the owners not to create jobs. Employee pay has nothing to do with owner profit.

Sorry, but that's short-sighted and wrong. If a company's business plan includes the use of employed labor, then the dynamics of the relationship between the economic power of the employer and the collective power of the workers must be planned-for prudently, in advance. Failure to do so is a lack of due diligence which nature would not tolerate if certain state governments did not artificially tip the natural balance by enacting anti-union legislation.

Ok, I don't dissagree that employers must plan for labor. That wasn't my point. Sorry it wasn't clear. I believe if you read all of my comments you will see im making a rather simple point about profits and how they belong soley to the owner. Also, that employee pay should be based on their value not the owners profit.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[freethefly 6]

The question:
"So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more."
My answer:
We only hired what was needed. So, now follow along as most people probably figured it out on their own, if we did not need people for the cedar (or for what we did as we did not do cedar and very little vinyl, mostly fiberboard,) we would let them go, as we only hired what was needed. Why keep people sitting around if there were no work for them? Why would they stay if there were no pay for them?
Now, mind you, I did expand on what JB and I did. We were but two guys who would bid on subcontract work. We hired strictly from the union job board. We were also members of the union. Those, whom we hired on, knew that the job only lasted until it was completed.

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Instead, you glossed over the answer and went on an extended spiel about how the non-union crews were so terrible and the union stepped in to save the universe!!! day!!!

I did not gloss over my answer. It was at the start.
Oh, and yes the union did step in and save the project. It got finished without interruptions, it was up to code, no backing up for rework. In the end, the owner of the project was more than happy with the quality and that the job was completed under the time frame predicted. His cost would had been far less if he would not had try to cut corners.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

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I believe if you read all of my comments you will see im making a rather simple point about profits and how they belong soley to the owner. Also, that employee pay should be based on their value not the owners profit.

I agree with your point that the profits belong solely to the owner. In my reply, I extended to say that an employer who treats his/her employees well does better than one that doesn't.
Employers who offer profit sharing tend to do very well. Making employees part owners instills a higher level of pride leading employees to perform better. That is a win-win for everyone.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The question:
"So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more."
My answer:
We only hired what was needed. So, now follow along as most people probably figured it out on their own, if we did not need people for the cedar (or for what we did as we did not do cedar and very little vinyl, mostly fiberboard,) we would let them go, as we only hired what was needed. Why keep people sitting around if there were no work for them? Why would they stay if there were no pay for them?
Now, mind you, I did expand on what JB and I did. We were but two guys who would bid on subcontract work. We hired strictly from the union job board. We were also members of the union. Those, whom we hired on, knew that the job only lasted until it was completed.

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Instead, you glossed over the answer and went on an extended spiel about how the non-union crews were so terrible and the union stepped in to save the universe!!! day!!!

I did not gloss over my answer. It was at the start.
Oh, and yes the union did step in and save the project. It got finished without interruptions, it was up to code, no backing up for rework. In the end, the owner of the project was more than happy with the quality and that the job was completed under the time frame predicted. His cost would had been far less if he would not had try to cut corners.

A: You still have not answered the man's question. You have instead completely ignored the hypothetical situation he proposed and substituted your own.
B: According to your tale, there are only two types of workers, top-notch quality union and piss-poor non-union. In case you have been under a rock, there are as many top-quality non-union workers as there are union (probably more), and there are as many piss-poor union workers as there are non-union.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

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. I am saying the company exist for the owners profit. It does not exist so he can create jobs for people. that is a benefit for others but not the companies purpose or why it was created. its only purpose is profit, not jobs.

while everyone wants it to be owners or employees, I think it's fairer to say a company exists because of its customers. The owner creates it with the notion of profits, but its continued existence is a different matter.

[freethefly 6]

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A: You still have not answered the man's question. You have instead completely ignored the hypothetical situation he proposed and substituted your own.

The question:
"So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more."
My answer:
We only hired what was needed. So, now follow along as most people probably figured it out on their own, if we did not need people for the cedar (or for what we did as we did not do cedar and very little vinyl, mostly fiberboard,) we would let them go, as we only hired what was needed.

Is that simple for you (see bold portion of the expanded answer.)

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B: According to your tale, there are only two types of workers, top-notch quality union and piss-poor non-union. In case you have been under a rock, there are as many top-quality non-union workers as there are union (probably more), and there are as many piss-poor union workers as there are non-union.

I made no such statement that there were only two types of workers.
I've worked with a number of top notch non-union welders.
I'll be non-union, again, when I return to Sperry. All top notch people.
In the case of the apartment complex project, the owner tried to cut corners with low pay workers who did not follow codes and ignored safety rules. He got what he paid for. I have used this particular job as an example of what can go wrong when corners are cut on this board in the past.
JB and I had worked alongside contractors who were non union and their work was top notch. No problem.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

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. I am saying the company exist for the owners profit. It does not exist so he can create jobs for people. that is a benefit for others but not the companies purpose or why it was created. its only purpose is profit, not jobs.

while everyone wants it to be owners or employees, I think it's fairer to say a company exists because of its customers. The owner creates it with the notion of profits, but its continued existence is a different matter.

Can we say, every person from the owner to the customer is needed for a company to exist? I'll step out on the plank and say that is true.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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A: You still have not answered the man's question. You have instead completely ignored the hypothetical situation he proposed and substituted your own.

The question:
"So if you had two crews working for your siding business, one did only cedar clapboard, and the other only vinyl, and cedar clapboard fell out of favor would you continue to keep the same number of people on the cedar crew even though they didn't make you nearly as much money any more."
My answer:
We only hired what was needed. So, now follow along as most people probably figured it out on their own, if we did not need people for the cedar (or for what we did as we did not do cedar and very little vinyl, mostly fiberboard,) we would let them go, as we only hired what was needed.

Is that simple for you (see bold portion of the expanded answer.)

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B: According to your tale, there are only two types of workers, top-notch quality union and piss-poor non-union. In case you have been under a rock, there are as many top-quality non-union workers as there are union (probably more), and there are as many piss-poor union workers as there are non-union.

I made no such statement that there were only two types of workers.
I've worked with a number of top notch non-union welders.
I'll be non-union, again, when I return to Sperry. All top notch people.
In the case of the apartment complex project, the owner tried to cut corners with low pay workers who did not follow codes and ignored safety rules. He got what he paid for. I have used this particular job as an example of what can go wrong when corners are cut on this board in the past.
JB and I had worked alongside contractors who were non union and their work was top notch. No problem.

So, by letting them go, you would be going against the very principles of the unions you so admire.
Your tale implied that only union workers could save the day when a contractor cuts corners. I think we all know what happens when inexperienced help is hired regardless of union membership.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[freethefly 6]

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So, by letting them go, you would be going against the very principles of the unions you so admire.
Your tale implied that only union workers could save the day when a contractor cuts corners. I think we all know what happens when inexperienced help is hired regardless of union membership.

Well, let's be fair. Hypothetical questions, such as this one, can be one-sided and tend to favor the straw man fallacy as this one does. If I were to keep the hypothetical employees the company would fail due to paying people with no money coming in. Eventually, the company would be bankrupt and everyone is out of a job and I am a bad person.
If I were to let them go, I am anti-worker (union?) and a bad person.
This hypothetical has no answer that would satisfy as any of the two possible answer would tend to shade me as a bad person. My only choice was to change the parameters of the hypothetical in order to answer outside the fallacy.
I stand by my answer that I would only hire what is needed thereby not falling for the fallacy. You can either accept that answer or not. Why continuing badgering it?

One of the fallacies that I alluded to:

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So, by letting them go, you would be going against the very principles of the unions you so admire.

Not so. Those in the union understand seniority. While at Hussmann, I was laid off once before the big downsizing that occurred under Ingersoll Rand. I had no problem with that as I realize it is part of being union. The people JB and I would use, when extra help was needed, were union and understood that they were only there until the job was finished. Small siding jobs were done by John and myself as only a cutter and a hanger were needed. The apartment complex was large and we brought on four extra guys to help.
St. Louis is overwhelmingly union. There are very few non-union contractors. They can do the job for less than the non-union outfits as they strictly adhere to safety, codes and craftsmanship. Do shoddy work, ignore codes and safety the union will dump your ass outside the gate. St. Louis was built by union workers. You must prove yourself to work on a union crew.
You and other union haters tend to believe that the union has a history of crappy work and lazy workers. Your Harley is union made. Your truck, if it is a Chevy, Ford, or Dodge is union made. Most of your tools are union made. My experience in the union is lazy did not cut it. At Hussmann, you had no time to lolly gag. You humped every minute of the day. If the line comes to a halt because you were goofing off, you were fired. The union backed the company when it came to slackers.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Belgian_Draft 0]

The hypothetical situation posed to you is very real. Unions once had (thankfully no longer have) the strength to force companies to keep labor numbers far in excess of what was needed, thus leading to the situation you described.
Yes, I hate unions. The fact they place seniority over skill is one reason along with their attempts to demand how a company should be operated, where to outsource parts, etc. They also drive up the cost of labor far past its true value through legalized extortion. If they would focus on obtaining and retaining safe work conditions and a fair wage they would have far more support. But their insistance upon trying to control all aspects of business is one reason their numbers have plummeted in recent years and they are now a mere shadow of what they once were.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

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The hypothetical situation posed to you is very real. Unions once had (thankfully no longer have) the strength to force companies to keep labor numbers far in excess of what was needed, thus leading to the situation you described.
Yes, I hate unions. The fact they place seniority over skill is one reason along with their attempts to demand how a company should be operated, where to outsource parts, etc. They also drive up the cost of labor far past its true value through legalized extortion. If they would focus on obtaining and retaining safe work conditions and a fair wage they would have far more support. But their insistance upon trying to control all aspects of business is one reason their numbers have plummeted in recent years and they are now a mere shadow of what they once were.

I think you and your fellow travellers really feel that a fair wage for very experienced and talented people is what.. about $8.00 an hour like most of the red states seem to target.

[Kennedy 0]

That's about as true as the assertion that you and yours think entry level manual laborers should make more than owners and execs.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Amazon 7]

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That's about as true as the assertion that you and yours think entry level manual laborers should make more than owners and execs.

I think the evidence is fairly clear about what pay rates are in RED STATES as opposed to areas that do NOT vote that stright RED PARTY ticket ...and what the rich.... that you bend overso far for, are willing to pay for your labors in the former and current slave states.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

If all the job entails is putting a piece of molding on the side of a car...a job any grade school dropout can do...then $8.00/hr is fair. However, union autoworkers get paid a bit more than that.
Unions don't believe in matching pay to the job.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.