Guest #1 July 27, 2011 They don't get more Jewish than Lenny, yet here he is on PeaceNow. Op Ed on Peace Now mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #2 July 27, 2011 Quote They don't get more Jewish than Lenny, yet here he is on PeaceNow. Op Ed on Peace Now mh . Logical. I agree with almost all of it. Where I differ is on the notion of a "Jewish" State. I think religion has done enough damage in the region, or the world for that matter. Separation of Church and State is has a much better track record. $0.02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thedivingdog 0 #3 July 27, 2011 Wow dude, I guess tiny little Israel is too much to ask?? Lets take a look at a map, shall we? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_state_religions.svg All of the green countries are Muslim countries. Plenty of blue Christian countries as well. Tiny Israel is the sole Jewish Democratic country, you can't even see it it's so damn small. But you're totally right, there is no room for a Jewish country in this world.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #4 July 27, 2011 >But you're totally right, there is no room for a Jewish country in this world. There's plenty of room for Jewish (and Christian, and Muslim) countries, just as there's plenty of room for countries that support terrorism and slavery and oppose women's and minority rights. But just because there's room for them doesn't mean they are good ideas. I look forward to a day where there are no Jewish, Christian, Muslim etc countries - where there are just free countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thedivingdog 0 #5 July 27, 2011 Hey, I'm with ya there. I guess now we just have to play the waiting game..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #6 July 27, 2011 QuoteHey, I'm with ya there. I guess now we just have to play the waiting game..... Think that will be another 4000 years??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #7 July 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteHey, I'm with ya there. I guess now we just have to play the waiting game..... Think that will be another 4000 years??? Call me a cynic...humans will have wiped themselves out before that happens.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #8 July 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteHey, I'm with ya there. I guess now we just have to play the waiting game..... Think that will be another 4000 years??? Call me a cynic...humans will have wiped themselves out before that happens. Maybe the feline species will have better luck since the primates ain't doin so hot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 2 #9 July 28, 2011 Quote>But you're totally right, there is no room for a Jewish country in this world. There's plenty of room for Jewish (and Christian, and Muslim) countries, just as there's plenty of room for countries that support terrorism and slavery and oppose women's and minority rights. But just because there's room for them doesn't mean they are good ideas. I look forward to a day where there are no Jewish, Christian, Muslim etc countries - where there are just free countries.QuoteWhere's John Lennon when you need him ? "Imagine all the people living life in peace" .Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites metalslug 31 #10 July 28, 2011 Quote Maybe the feline species will have better luck since the primates ain't doin so hot Say what ? Cats ? Are you having an "Island of Doctor Moreau" moment ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #11 July 28, 2011 He is right, its the only way forwards.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #12 July 28, 2011 Quote Quote Maybe the feline species will have better luck since the primates ain't doin so hot Say what ? Cats ? Are you having an "Island of Doctor Moreau" moment ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #13 July 28, 2011 Quote Wow dude, I guess tiny little Israel is too much to ask?? Lets take a look at a map, shall we? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_state_religions.svg All of the green countries are Muslim countries. Plenty of blue Christian countries as well. Tiny Israel is the sole Jewish Democratic country, you can't even see it it's so damn small. But you're totally right, there is no room for a Jewish country in this world.. Maybe I'm just getting old but I'm don't have much tolerance for certain things any longer. You'd think that after a couple thousand years of religious intolerance by most of the players that people might wise up and get over themselves. If holy book thumping fanatics would stand back and look at the "Cliff's notes" version of their chosen religion they'd realize that they all say the same thing. Bickering over the minutia is what gets us into trouble. The world would be better off everyone subscribed to the separation of church and state doctrine. Pray as much as you want any time you want but leave it out of issues such as roads, borders, trade and foreign policy. It works for us (for the most part). My comment was not to say that there's no room for a Jewish state. It was more a "stop the insanity" plea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #14 July 28, 2011 I think you (and many others here) confuse "Jewish" as religion and "Jewish" as a nation. The term "Jewish state" is less about the religion (Israel has the most freedom of religion in the world, especially for non Jews). It is more about having a home land for the Jewish nation, which based on the past 2000 years is needed. As for the two state solution, you should know the most Israelis (including the government) support that idea. But for that to work, it has to be clear that each nation gets a well defined homeland. otherwise you'll have another round of violence if/when the Arab minority in Israel decides one day that they want to break away from Israel and join Palestine. The main thing that doesn't allow this solution to become reality is the Palestinian refusal to "end all claims" and announce that the dispute over land is over. From their point of view, they want to allow all of the 1948 Arabs back into Israel. This doesn't fit well with a state for each nations. Exactly as the Jewish refugees of 1948 found their new home in Israel the 1948 Arab refugees must find their home in Palestine. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #15 July 28, 2011 QuoteWhere I differ is on the notion of a "Jewish" State. I think religion has done enough damage in the region, or the world for that matter. Separation of Church and State is has a much better track record. If Israel's neighbors were not explicitly Islamic nations (some even have it embedded in their name), then a Jewish state would not be so important. Israel has obviously accepted a two state solution as evidenced by the agreements that were so close to being accepted by both sides, only to be rejected (not by Israel) in the end. That Israel may not admit that formally now is just to hold it back for the actual negotiations, IMO. So, speaking out in favor of a two state solution is of trivial importance. Arafat was never really interested in peace. What is needed is a leader on the Palestinian side like Sadat, and we certainly don't have that now.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,434 #16 July 28, 2011 >It is more about having a home land for the Jewish nation . . . Right, and there's room for that. I just hope someday that Israel will the home of Israelis, not the home of the Jewish nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #17 July 28, 2011 Israel was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights to other minorities. One does not exclude the other. Israel is the home of those who consider themselves Israelis. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites metalslug 31 #18 July 28, 2011 QuoteRight, and there's room for that. I just hope someday that Israel will the home of Israelis, not the home of the Jewish nation. I, for one, cannot help but wonder if many of the more liberal comments on this forum are made glibly by those who are safe in the knowledge that they will never become a minority in their own country. There is another thread on this forum regarding a woman who hangs plastic testicles on her car. From the comments there so far the general feeling is that this type of person represents an unusual mentality that most members here would not voluntarily socialize with at their next barbeque. Similarly, many here may choose to avoid people who display ignorance, or have poor personal hygiene, or who take bribes, or any number of other quirks or lifestyle choices that they might not be comfortable with. Keep in mind such people are not objectively "wrong" or "bad", they are not of any particular ethnicity, they are not specifically democrats or republicans, Christian or Islamic. They may just be different from yourself in some unacceptable way and if such people became the dominant type of resident in your neighbourhood you would probably move to a different neighbourhood. Bigotry and choice of association are not limited to race or religion. Imagine, just for a wild moment, that the vast majority of US government representatives were people with some quirk, trait, education level or lifestyle choice that you disapprove of. They were elected through a democratic process and so you would be OK with that situation, right ? ..or not ? Not too long ago South Africa became the home of South Africans. It became fair, it became democratic, and the world applauded. Of course since then damn near every branch of government has been in decline; unprecedented corruption and weekly news stories here that make even the most outrageous U.S. politics seem completely professional. So what can people do who don't like their 'new' country ? Well, they can leave of course. It's a very fair solution, but certainly not a cheap and easy one for most citizens. Is this what you would offer to the "Jewish Nation" in a truly democratic Israel? The freedom to leave and find a new home... again? Would you leave the U.S. if government policy became radically different from your own values, with no chance of a turnaround? Should you leave? Would your friends and colleagues leave? Could they leave if they wanted to? ...or would you all just suck it up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #19 July 28, 2011 Quote I, for one, cannot help but wonder if many of the more liberal comments on this forum are made glibly by those who are safe in the knowledge that they will never become a minority in their own country. More likely that people are bored of arguing with people who are just looking for a argument for their entrenched POV. The best way to kill a thread around here is not to throw wood on the fire.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #20 July 28, 2011 QuoteIsrael was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights to other minorities. One does not exclude the other. Israel is the home of those who consider themselves Israelis. Ah, but Bibi, in his rebuttal to Obama's speech regarding the two-state solution, stated categorically that the Palestinians must accept Israel as a JEWISH state. AFAIK there was no mention of reciprocity. IMO that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #21 July 28, 2011 I haven't read the thread, or the link. But I did read the thread title and saw this "Actor ............... has opinion on something or other" my reaction of "Meh" was strong and immediate ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #22 July 28, 2011 QuoteAFAIK there was no mention of reciprocity I guess no one saw the need to state the obvious. on the same note of reciprocity, 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs (As in Palestinians) that were within Israel's borders when it was founded. These citizens will remain in Israel naturally. Yet, the Palestinians refuse to allow any of the jewish settleres who are in the west bank to stay as a minority in a Palestinian state. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #23 July 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteIsrael was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights to other minorities. One does not exclude the other. Israel is the home of those who consider themselves Israelis. Ah, but Bibi, in his rebuttal to Obama's speech regarding the two-state solution, stated categorically that the Palestinians must accept Israel as a JEWISH state. AFAIK there was no mention of reciprocity. IMO that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. mh . Do you accept Iran... as the Islamic Republic? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,434 #24 July 28, 2011 >Israel was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights >to other minorities. Right. And the US was founded by a group of Christian religious pilgrims with equal rights to other minorities as well. Still, I am glad that we are not the Christian State. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #25 July 28, 2011 QuoteRight. And the US was founded by a group of Christian religious pilgrims with equal rights to other minorities as well. Still, I am glad that we are not the Christian State. And Israel is not "Jewish" in the religious meaning (although I would like it to have more state/religion separation). It's Jewish in the same way France is French and the US is American "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
metalslug 31 #10 July 28, 2011 Quote Maybe the feline species will have better luck since the primates ain't doin so hot Say what ? Cats ? Are you having an "Island of Doctor Moreau" moment ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #11 July 28, 2011 He is right, its the only way forwards.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #12 July 28, 2011 Quote Quote Maybe the feline species will have better luck since the primates ain't doin so hot Say what ? Cats ? Are you having an "Island of Doctor Moreau" moment ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #13 July 28, 2011 Quote Wow dude, I guess tiny little Israel is too much to ask?? Lets take a look at a map, shall we? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_state_religions.svg All of the green countries are Muslim countries. Plenty of blue Christian countries as well. Tiny Israel is the sole Jewish Democratic country, you can't even see it it's so damn small. But you're totally right, there is no room for a Jewish country in this world.. Maybe I'm just getting old but I'm don't have much tolerance for certain things any longer. You'd think that after a couple thousand years of religious intolerance by most of the players that people might wise up and get over themselves. If holy book thumping fanatics would stand back and look at the "Cliff's notes" version of their chosen religion they'd realize that they all say the same thing. Bickering over the minutia is what gets us into trouble. The world would be better off everyone subscribed to the separation of church and state doctrine. Pray as much as you want any time you want but leave it out of issues such as roads, borders, trade and foreign policy. It works for us (for the most part). My comment was not to say that there's no room for a Jewish state. It was more a "stop the insanity" plea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #14 July 28, 2011 I think you (and many others here) confuse "Jewish" as religion and "Jewish" as a nation. The term "Jewish state" is less about the religion (Israel has the most freedom of religion in the world, especially for non Jews). It is more about having a home land for the Jewish nation, which based on the past 2000 years is needed. As for the two state solution, you should know the most Israelis (including the government) support that idea. But for that to work, it has to be clear that each nation gets a well defined homeland. otherwise you'll have another round of violence if/when the Arab minority in Israel decides one day that they want to break away from Israel and join Palestine. The main thing that doesn't allow this solution to become reality is the Palestinian refusal to "end all claims" and announce that the dispute over land is over. From their point of view, they want to allow all of the 1948 Arabs back into Israel. This doesn't fit well with a state for each nations. Exactly as the Jewish refugees of 1948 found their new home in Israel the 1948 Arab refugees must find their home in Palestine. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #15 July 28, 2011 QuoteWhere I differ is on the notion of a "Jewish" State. I think religion has done enough damage in the region, or the world for that matter. Separation of Church and State is has a much better track record. If Israel's neighbors were not explicitly Islamic nations (some even have it embedded in their name), then a Jewish state would not be so important. Israel has obviously accepted a two state solution as evidenced by the agreements that were so close to being accepted by both sides, only to be rejected (not by Israel) in the end. That Israel may not admit that formally now is just to hold it back for the actual negotiations, IMO. So, speaking out in favor of a two state solution is of trivial importance. Arafat was never really interested in peace. What is needed is a leader on the Palestinian side like Sadat, and we certainly don't have that now.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #16 July 28, 2011 >It is more about having a home land for the Jewish nation . . . Right, and there's room for that. I just hope someday that Israel will the home of Israelis, not the home of the Jewish nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #17 July 28, 2011 Israel was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights to other minorities. One does not exclude the other. Israel is the home of those who consider themselves Israelis. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 31 #18 July 28, 2011 QuoteRight, and there's room for that. I just hope someday that Israel will the home of Israelis, not the home of the Jewish nation. I, for one, cannot help but wonder if many of the more liberal comments on this forum are made glibly by those who are safe in the knowledge that they will never become a minority in their own country. There is another thread on this forum regarding a woman who hangs plastic testicles on her car. From the comments there so far the general feeling is that this type of person represents an unusual mentality that most members here would not voluntarily socialize with at their next barbeque. Similarly, many here may choose to avoid people who display ignorance, or have poor personal hygiene, or who take bribes, or any number of other quirks or lifestyle choices that they might not be comfortable with. Keep in mind such people are not objectively "wrong" or "bad", they are not of any particular ethnicity, they are not specifically democrats or republicans, Christian or Islamic. They may just be different from yourself in some unacceptable way and if such people became the dominant type of resident in your neighbourhood you would probably move to a different neighbourhood. Bigotry and choice of association are not limited to race or religion. Imagine, just for a wild moment, that the vast majority of US government representatives were people with some quirk, trait, education level or lifestyle choice that you disapprove of. They were elected through a democratic process and so you would be OK with that situation, right ? ..or not ? Not too long ago South Africa became the home of South Africans. It became fair, it became democratic, and the world applauded. Of course since then damn near every branch of government has been in decline; unprecedented corruption and weekly news stories here that make even the most outrageous U.S. politics seem completely professional. So what can people do who don't like their 'new' country ? Well, they can leave of course. It's a very fair solution, but certainly not a cheap and easy one for most citizens. Is this what you would offer to the "Jewish Nation" in a truly democratic Israel? The freedom to leave and find a new home... again? Would you leave the U.S. if government policy became radically different from your own values, with no chance of a turnaround? Should you leave? Would your friends and colleagues leave? Could they leave if they wanted to? ...or would you all just suck it up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #19 July 28, 2011 Quote I, for one, cannot help but wonder if many of the more liberal comments on this forum are made glibly by those who are safe in the knowledge that they will never become a minority in their own country. More likely that people are bored of arguing with people who are just looking for a argument for their entrenched POV. The best way to kill a thread around here is not to throw wood on the fire.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #20 July 28, 2011 QuoteIsrael was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights to other minorities. One does not exclude the other. Israel is the home of those who consider themselves Israelis. Ah, but Bibi, in his rebuttal to Obama's speech regarding the two-state solution, stated categorically that the Palestinians must accept Israel as a JEWISH state. AFAIK there was no mention of reciprocity. IMO that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #21 July 28, 2011 I haven't read the thread, or the link. But I did read the thread title and saw this "Actor ............... has opinion on something or other" my reaction of "Meh" was strong and immediate ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #22 July 28, 2011 QuoteAFAIK there was no mention of reciprocity I guess no one saw the need to state the obvious. on the same note of reciprocity, 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs (As in Palestinians) that were within Israel's borders when it was founded. These citizens will remain in Israel naturally. Yet, the Palestinians refuse to allow any of the jewish settleres who are in the west bank to stay as a minority in a Palestinian state. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #23 July 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteIsrael was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights to other minorities. One does not exclude the other. Israel is the home of those who consider themselves Israelis. Ah, but Bibi, in his rebuttal to Obama's speech regarding the two-state solution, stated categorically that the Palestinians must accept Israel as a JEWISH state. AFAIK there was no mention of reciprocity. IMO that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. mh . Do you accept Iran... as the Islamic Republic? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #24 July 28, 2011 >Israel was founded as the home of the Jewish people with equal rights >to other minorities. Right. And the US was founded by a group of Christian religious pilgrims with equal rights to other minorities as well. Still, I am glad that we are not the Christian State. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #25 July 28, 2011 QuoteRight. And the US was founded by a group of Christian religious pilgrims with equal rights to other minorities as well. Still, I am glad that we are not the Christian State. And Israel is not "Jewish" in the religious meaning (although I would like it to have more state/religion separation). It's Jewish in the same way France is French and the US is American "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
