dreamdancer 0 #101 July 29, 2011 this is the opening post... QuoteIve been pondering this question lately ; Why does Israel have a "Right To Exist" on the Palestinians turf? Any ideas? the repeated comes from the single post when you called him a troll, a racist and a hater of jews. all a little bit over the top...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #102 July 29, 2011 kids are kids... QuoteSchoolchildren participating in summer camps run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) broke the world record Thursday for simultaneous kite flying, a UN official said. Around 8,000 boys and girls, ages 10-14, gathered at a beach in the northern Gaza Strip and flew 4,000 kites. The kites were built by the children and carried the four major colors of the Palestinian flag. Slogans were written on the kites calling on Israel to end more than four years of blockade imposed on the territory. The slogans on the kites called for a lasting peace with Israel and letting the children live in peace and security. Chris Guness, UNRWA spokesman in Gaza, told reporters that the kites were hand-made "by Gaza kids, and were not imported from China." http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/gaza-children-break-kite-flying-world-record-1.375851stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #103 July 29, 2011 Jeez. Your grasp of history is appalling. Oh, and Gratis is Latin, nothing to do with Mexico save as for the fact that it has entered modern Spanish (along with many other languages) from the same routs as it entered English. Read up on the Byzantine Empire for a start. From there you can come forward to the British Mandate and beyond or backwards through the Caliphates, the various iterations of the Roman Empire and back even to the Greeks, Persians, Mongols (yes, even the Mongols) and Egyptians, right back well over three thousand years ago to when Israelis were first knocking about the region. The area of modern Israel and much beyond has been the 'home of the Jews' for millennia. Literally millennia – the Kingdom of Israel was founded, in Jerusalem, around 3,000 years ago and was going strong for centuries. After they got run out of dodge around 500 years before a certain self proclaimed 'King of the Jews' got born in a little place (in modern Israel) called Bethlehem, virtually everyone in the classical world has since made it their business to kick the living shit out of them for the past 2,500 years. Throughout the last 3,000 years, Jews have been living in the region and for a good portion of that time existed there as a Jewis state in their own right often with various iterations of the name Israel. Through the majority of the time however, they have been living under the thumb of some external aggressor. When found in the rest of the world, they formed an excluded, brutalized or illegal group against whom various pogroms and massacres have been perpetrated throughout history, not least those in the last century. No bloody wonder they went 'home'. Would you rather the state didn't exist? Once you've unpicked 3,000 years of histroy, where do you want them to go? Are we looking at setting up shower blocks again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #104 July 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteI see no reason to consider Swiss personnel (who are Christians) on the ground in the West Bank to be biased. It is my belief that their reputation for neutrality is what brought them there. After having lived in Switzerland for a year, I can tell you with certainty that anti-Zionism is widespread in that country, as it is in most of Europe -- even in places as remote as Iceland. I recall sharing my views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in many a political discussion with Swiss friends, and things suddenly going quiet or the subject changing. They hear only what they want to hear in regard to this subject -- the Palestinian side of the story. QuoteQuoteI see no reason to consider Swiss personnel (who are Christians) on the ground in the West Bank to be biased. It is my belief that their reputation for neutrality is what brought them there. After having lived in Switzerland for a year, I can tell you with certainty that anti-Zionism is widespread in that country, as it is in most of Europe -- even in places as remote as Iceland. I recall sharing my views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in many a political discussion with Swiss friends, and things suddenly going quiet or the subject changing. They hear only what they want to hear in regard to this subject -- the Palestinian side of the story. Anti-Zionist or just plain Anti-Jewish (I will not use the term "Anti-Semitic" for obvious reasons)? The observers I spent the week with criticized the occupation and the illegal settlements, but never the Jewish people themselves. They also remarked on some of the foolish things the Palestinians were and are doing. They're not there just to blow the whistle on the soldiers or the settlers. They are trying very hard to get the Palestinians to struggle against the occupation with their wits, rather than with slingshots and rockets, so this ad hominem attack against the observers is, in my opinion, without basis. I'm not saying that I'm some kind of expert on the situation simply by virtue of having been to the West Bank - I'm reporting on what I have seen. I encourage others to go there and see for themselves, and form their own opinions. Given the volatility of the situation, the whole area is a BS factory, and you'll never learn the truth on the ground until you have stood there. However, I must say that the behavior of the settlers (attacking Palestinian kids on their way to school) is as cowardly as the Palestinians randomly pointing a rocket with "to whom it may concern" written on it and shooting it at Sderot. I said earlier that I do not side with the Palestinians (anyone who has seen my posts on this forum for the past ten years knows very well that I am no bleeding-heart liberal). Maybe I've been out here way too long. However, I do side with peace, fundamental human rights, and simple human dignity, all of which are in short supply in Palestine. The whole "you're with us or against us" attitude is f***ing it all up. There is still an opportunity for peaceful coexistence, if for no other reason than that the status quo isn't getting anyone anywhere. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #105 July 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteI see no reason to consider Swiss personnel (who are Christians) on the ground in the West Bank to be biased. It is my belief that their reputation for neutrality is what brought them there. After having lived in Switzerland for a year, I can tell you with certainty that anti-Zionism is widespread in that country, as it is in most of Europe -- even in places as remote as Iceland. I recall sharing my views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in many a political discussion with Swiss friends, and things suddenly going quiet or the subject changing. They hear only what they want to hear in regard to this subject -- the Palestinian side of the story. Anti-Zionist or just plain Anti-Jewish (I will not use the term "Anti-Semitic" for obvious reasons)? The observers I spent the week with criticized the occupation and the illegal settlements, but never the Jewish people themselves. They also remarked on some of the foolish things the Palestinians were and are doing. They're not there just to blow the whistle on the soldiers or the settlers. They are trying very hard to get the Palestinians to struggle against the occupation with their wits, rather than with slingshots and rockets, so this ad hominem attack against the observers is, in my opinion, without basis. I'm not saying that I'm some kind of expert on the situation simply by virtue of having been to the West Bank - I'm reporting on what I have seen. I encourage others to go there and see for themselves, and form their own opinions. Given the volatility of the situation, the whole area is a BS factory, and you'll never learn the truth on the ground until you have stood there. However, I must say that the behavior of the settlers (attacking Palestinian kids on their way to school) is as cowardly as the Palestinians randomly pointing a rocket with "to whom it may concern" written on it and shooting it at Sderot. I said earlier that I do not side with the Palestinians (anyone who has seen my posts on this forum for the past ten years knows very well that I am no bleeding-heart liberal). Maybe I've been out here way too long. However, I do side with peace, fundamental human rights, and simple human dignity, all of which are in short supply in Palestine. The whole "you're with us or against us" attitude is f***ing up the whole thing. There is still an opportunity for peaceful coexistence, if for no other reason than that the status quo isn't getting anyone anywhere."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #106 July 29, 2011 QuoteQuote. How many lives were saved by dropping 2 A-bombs on Japan? No one knows. We do have a pretty good estimate of how many were exterminated.Good estimates for an invasion were over a million casualties (Allied side).You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #107 July 29, 2011 QuoteI'm not saying that I'm some kind of expert on the situation simply by virtue of having been to the West Bank - I'm reporting on what I have seen And I respect that. All I said is that you have to "be on the ground" on both sides and really understand the history and events that took place in order to put everything in the right perspective QuoteThere is still an opportunity for peaceful coexistence, if for no other reason than that the status quo isn't getting anyone anywhere Agreed "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #108 July 29, 2011 Quote After having lived in Switzerland for a year, I can tell you with certainty that anti-Zionism is widespread in that country, as it is in most of Europe -- even in places as remote as Iceland. I recall sharing my views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in many a political discussion with Swiss friends, and things suddenly going quiet or the subject changing. They hear only what they want to hear in regard to this subject -- the Palestinian side of the story. Anti-Zionist or just plain Anti-Jewish (I will not use the term "Anti-Semitic" for obvious reasons)? The observers I spent the week with criticized the occupation and the illegal settlements, but never the Jewish people themselves. They also remarked on some of the foolish things the Palestinians were and are doing. They're not there just to blow the whistle on the soldiers or the settlers. They are trying very hard to get the Palestinians to struggle against the occupation with their wits, rather than with slingshots and rockets, so this ad hominem attack against the observers is, in my opinion, without basis. I'm not saying that I'm some kind of expert on the situation simply by virtue of having been to the West Bank - I'm reporting on what I have seen. I encourage others to go there and see for themselves, and form their own opinions. Given the volatility of the situation, the whole area is a BS factory, and you'll never learn the truth on the ground until you have stood there. However, I must say that the behavior of the settlers (attacking Palestinian kids on their way to school) is as cowardly as the Palestinians randomly pointing a rocket with "to whom it may concern" written on it and shooting it at Sderot. I said earlier that I do not side with the Palestinians (anyone who has seen my posts on this forum for the past ten years knows very well that I am no bleeding-heart liberal). Maybe I've been out here way too long. However, I do side with peace, fundamental human rights, and simple human dignity, all of which are in short supply in Palestine. The whole "you're with us or against us" attitude is f***ing it all up. There is still an opportunity for peaceful coexistence, if for no other reason than that the status quo isn't getting anyone anywhere. mh . I was getting ready to abandon this thread because of how it had deteriorated. Thanks for elevating the discussion again. You too Ori. While I disagree with you on some significant concepts I always appreciate your perspective. I wish I had more time today to spend on this topic. Thanks again to both of you. I'll buy the first round. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #109 July 29, 2011 Quote Quote "Gratis" that means "free of charge" for you Mexican haters. what does gratis have to do with Mexico? Well, Latin comes from Latin America, right? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #110 July 30, 2011 Quote One thing is for sure.., if every Jew who didn't hold title to any parcel of land in Palestine prior to 1940 left today we could have one hell of a peace party! I bet Bono would play "gratis"! It was explained to me that few Palestinians have deeds or titles that originated during Ottoman times - they simply lived there. This has made it very convenient for Israeli settlers to come in and kick the Palestinians out of areas they have lived in for generations, by essentially staking a claim (or perhaps getting the government to do it for them in the case of the "legal" settlements). Simply placing a lien on a parcel, as it were, and in utter disregard of whomever may be living there at the time. Technical and legalese. Very slick, very wrong. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #111 July 30, 2011 QuoteQuote One thing is for sure.., if every Jew who didn't hold title to any parcel of land in Palestine prior to 1940 left today we could have one hell of a peace party! I bet Bono would play "gratis"! It was explained to me that few Palestinians have deeds or titles that originated during Ottoman times - they simply lived there. This has made it very convenient for Israeli settlers to come in and kick the Palestinians out of areas they have lived in for generations, by essentially staking a claim (or perhaps getting the government to do it for them in the case of the "legal" settlements). Simply placing a lien on a parcel, as it were, and in utter disregard of whomever may be living there at the time. Technical and legalese. Very slick, very wrong. mh . Ever ask where all the titles to the lands and homes and possesions of the jewish people across the entire muslim world ( not just the Arab countries)went when they were forced out of those countries or murdered??? The totals are far larger stolen from them by the Arab countries.. than the current size of Israel. Its too bad the Palistinians Arab brothers did not give those over to all those homeless Arabs who did not want to live with Jews in Israel and joined in huge numbers with the Arab League fighers to kill their former neighbors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #112 July 30, 2011 QuoteEver ask where all the titles to the lands and homes and possesions of the jewish people across the entire muslim world ( not just the Arab countries)went when they were forced out of those countries or murdered??? The totals are far larger stolen from them by the Arab countries.. than the current size of Israel. Its too bad the Palistinians Arab brothers did not give those over to all those homeless Arabs who did not want to live with Jews in Israel and joined in huge numbers with the Arab League fighers to kill their former neighbors. Let alone the Armenian Genocide, lets not forget those guys... or did we ever get told about them at all? Who writes History... his-story... http://www.gendercide.org/case_armenia.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide QuoteIn the early part of 1915, the Armenian soldiers in the Turkish army were reduced to a new status. Up to that time most of them had been combatants, but now they were all stripped of their arms and transformed into workmen. Instead of serving their country as artillerymen and cavalrymen, these former soldiers now discovered that they had been transformed into road labourers and pack animals. Army supplies of all kinds were loaded on their backs, and, stumbling under the burdens and driven by the whips and bayonets of the Turks, they were forced to drag their weary bodies into the mountains of the Caucasus. Sometimes they would have to plough their way, burdened in this fashion, almost waist high through snow. They had to spend practically all their time in the open, sleeping on the bare ground -- whenever the ceaseless prodding of their taskmasters gave them an occasional opportunity to sleep. They were given only scraps of food; if they fell sick they were left where they had dropped, their Turkish oppressors perhaps stopping long enough to rob them of all their possessions -- even of their clothes. If any stragglers succeeded in reaching their destinations, they were not infrequently massacred. In many instances Armenian soldiers were disposed of in even more summary fashion, for it now became almost the general practice to shoot them in cold blood. In almost all cases the procedure was the same. Here and there squads of 50 or 100 men would be taken, bound together in groups of four, and then marched out to a secluded spot a short distance from the village. Suddenly the sound of rifle shots would fill the air, and the Turkish soldiers who had acted as the escort would sullenly return to camp. Those sent to bury the bodies would find them almost invariably stark naked, for, as usual, the Turks had stolen all their clothes. In cases that came to my attention, the murderers had added a refinement to their victims' sufferings by compelling them to dig their graves before being shot.Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #113 July 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteEver ask where all the titles to the lands and homes and possesions of the jewish people across the entire muslim world ( not just the Arab countries)went when they were forced out of those countries or murdered??? The totals are far larger stolen from them by the Arab countries.. than the current size of Israel. Its too bad the Palistinians Arab brothers did not give those over to all those homeless Arabs who did not want to live with Jews in Israel and joined in huge numbers with the Arab League fighers to kill their former neighbors. Let alone the Armenian Genocide, lets not forget those guys... or did we ever get told about them at all? Whoe wites History... his-story. http://www.gendercide.org/case_armenia.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide..... "Our strength is our quickness and our brutality. Genghis Khan had millions of women and children hunted down and killed, deliberately and with a gay heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. What the weak Western European civilization alleges about me, does not matter. I have given the order—and will have everyone shot who utters but one word of criticism—that the aim of this war does not consist in reaching certain designated [geographical] lines, but in the enemies' physical elimination. Thus, for the time being only in the east, I put ready my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" ~A. Hitler The Turks deny Hitler ever referred to the Armenian genocide. They also deny these atrocities, and they have re-written history in the spirit of fascism and similar tyranny. They seem to claim that it was the Armenians who acted against the Turks. http://www.nationofturks.com/archives/35 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #114 July 30, 2011 Quote......... http://www.gendercide.org/case_armenia.html .... Interesting paragraph from your first link (let's change a few words): Turkey's Nazi Germany's defeat in World War I World War II, and the consequent collapse of the Ottoman Empire their Arab allies, offered surviving Armenians Jews an opportunity for national self-realization. In 1918 1948, an independent Republic of Armenia Israel was declared. U.S. President Woodrow Wilson was granted the right to draw The UN drew up the boundaries of a new Armenian Jewish nation, formalized at the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920 in 1948. However, the Turkish government, under nationalist leader Kemal Ataturk, Arab nations rapidly renounced the Treaty creation of Israel. In collusion with the newly-created Soviet Union, the Turks Arab League invaded Armenia Israel and reconquered six of the former western were repeatedly repelled by Israel leading to the eventual condemnation of Israel by the world's appeasers and whiners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alias 0 #115 August 1, 2011 "The Arab neighbors of Israel also have nothing holding them back from a prosperous future except their hatred that drives their suffering." Oh really? Do you really want to peel back the onion and learn how Israel has systematically achieved collective punishment on an innocent civilian population? Here are a few facts for the fire: The same Intl org that "created" Israel holds Israel as the record holder for human rights violations. Israel ignores that. They also have ignored the Geneva Convention. Um and what was your statement above? They "have nothing holding them back"? You seem to be more caught up in your religious ties and less with reality. Dan - you'll never win with a religious fanatic. Carpe Diem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alias 0 #116 August 1, 2011 QuoteQuote believe that most informed, critical thinking people are anti-zionists So are anti semites... Blam! I was waiting to see how long that tactic would take to pop out. Old one but effective way to derail the conversation away from facts. Slander your opposition. Carpe Diem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #117 August 1, 2011 QuoteSlander your opposition. Yes, and your "human rights violator" post was so neutral, wasn't it?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #118 August 1, 2011 QuoteInteresting paragraph from your first link (let's change a few words): Turkey's Nazi Germany's defeat in World War I World War II, and the consequent collapse of the Ottoman Empire their Arab allies, offered surviving Armenians Jews an opportunity for national self-realization. In 1918 1948, an independent Republic of Armenia Israel was declared. U.S. President Woodrow Wilson was granted the right to draw The UN drew up the boundaries of a new Armenian Jewish nation, formalized at the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920 in 1948. However, the Turkish government, under nationalist leader Kemal Ataturk, Arab nations rapidly renounced the Treaty creation of Israel. In collusion with the newly-created Soviet Union, the Turks Arab League invaded Armenia Israel and reconquered six of the former western were repeatedly repelled by Israel leading to the eventual condemnation of Israel by the world's appeasers and whiners. well done. The difference is, nobody knows of the Armenians. They just got fucked... The Israelis however are currently engaged in genocide themselves. There have been countless genocides in human history, some going right now. Israel is hypocritical to kill people and use their genocide as an excuse. Anybody that ignores those mass murders but preaches human rights and equality is a bullshit artist. Why not just get along... Take the religion out of it and maybe that might work, until then....Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #119 August 1, 2011 Quote The Israelis however are currently engaged in genocide themselves. You'd think they'd be better at it, given their experience. The Germans killed 2/3rd of European Jews (6 million) in a much larger area in roughly 4 years. Why does Gaza still exist? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #120 August 1, 2011 QuoteWhy does Gaza still exist? Genocides are not as easy as they used to be... International communication and all. LOL.Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #121 August 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhy does Gaza still exist? Genocides are not as easy as they used to be... International communication and all. LOL. You're laughing about genocide? Or does that just confirm that you know you're making shit up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #122 August 1, 2011 'The lighter side of genocide', where you have to keep your sense of humour, or you'll go fucking nuts. If you think I am making shit up, then it seems you know nothing about the subject yourself. Try some research. I see people in here laughing at the middle east genocide all the time... Is that the same or is it different when it is the USA performing the genocide? Why are we all going broke again? who has promised to end the wars and bring the boys home. Ron Paul gets laughed at then owns the fucktards Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #123 August 1, 2011 QuoteThe same Intl org that "created" Israel holds Israel as the record holder for human rights violations. Would that be violations as judged by the UN Human Rights Council, or their predecessor, the UN Commission on Human Rights? The same bodies that has/had members doing the judging such as China, Zimbabwe, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Algeria, Syria, Libya, Uganda, Vietnam...the same commission that declared that Palestinians had the right to fight Israel by "all available means, including armed struggle" in order to achieve independence? The same folks for which their motives and integrity are so obviously appalling? Israel's enemies have been in the back pocket of some/much of the media. They've even bragged about it. That's the reality of it, no peeling of onions required to understand.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thedivingdog 0 #124 August 1, 2011 Genocide? Prove it. Post a link from a REPUTABLE source, I would love to read it. Or have you seen this genocide first hand? How on earth did you escape?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #125 August 1, 2011 QuoteGenocide? Prove it. Post a link from a REPUTABLE source, I would love to read it. Or have you seen this genocide first hand? How on earth did you escape?? So the object is not to destroy certain (ethnic, nationalist, religious) groups by murdering them? What was the pretence for gong there again? What is the operation’s objective? Whether you agree with the reasoning or not, by definition we are engaged in genocide. It is simply not 'sold' to us that way and that is why you feel offended by the suggestion.. Do you believe you know the extent of what is going on over there? Even the troops that are present there will not know what is happening just around the corner. All those weapons are used for something and it isn’t planting flowers, lets put it that way...Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
