billvon 2,434 #151 July 21, 2011 >What if we simply default. What if we announce to the world that we're >simply not going to pay? Treasury bills would crash, of course. No one will be willing to buy Treasury bills that the government refuses to pay up on, and the government would have to offer very high interest rates to sell any at all. The most immediate result of that would be that interest rates would spike very high. Companies would not be able to get loans, and that would result in investors bailing out of US companies, since US companies would no longer be able to finance expansion (while, say, Chinese companies could.) This would result in the collapse of the US stock market, and the resulting losses of jobs etc. The dollar would collapse, and the US would no longer to be able to buy very much from foreign markets. That would exacerbate the decline of the US economy. (For example, imagine a scenario where oil is $300 a barrel, and we cannot buy raw materials to build electronics, cars etc.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #152 July 21, 2011 QuoteThe dollar would collapse, and the US would no longer to be able to buy very much from foreign markets. That would exacerbate the decline of the US economy. (For example, imagine a scenario where oil is $300 a barrel, and we cannot buy raw materials to build electronics, cars etc.)In which case I suppose we could send in our vast, bigger- (or at least more expensive) than-the-rest-of-the-world-put-together military to just TAKE what God obviously meant for us to have. And being at war with the entire world would certainly guarantee full employment, at least until we run out of cannon fodder. How's that for a neoconservative stimulus plan? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #153 July 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe dollar would collapse, and the US would no longer to be able to buy very much from foreign markets. That would exacerbate the decline of the US economy. (For example, imagine a scenario where oil is $300 a barrel, and we cannot buy raw materials to build electronics, cars etc.)In which case I suppose we could send in our vast, bigger- (or at least more expensive) than-the-rest-of-the-world-put-together military to just TAKE what God obviously meant for us to have. And being at war with the entire world would certainly guarantee full employment, at least until we run out of cannon fodder. How's that for a neoconservative stimulus plan? Don better a good war (still profit to be made after all) than the rich give up some of their wealth...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #154 July 21, 2011 Quotebetter a good war (still profit to be made after all) than the rich give up some of their wealth... America already has the most (with the top earning decile having both the highest tax share and ratio of tax to income shares) progressive income tax system out of the OECD 24. We're ahead of allegedly socialist places like Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, The Slovak Republic, Sweden, Switzerland, and The United Kingdom. We don't need to be any more progressive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #155 July 21, 2011 Quote We don't need to be any more progressive. we just need to tax the rich more - that's who has the money (or hadn't you noticed)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #156 July 21, 2011 Quote Quote We don't need to be any more progressive. we just need to tax the rich more - that's who has the money (or hadn't you noticed) Are you advocating taxing the money they have or the money they make? Just trying to get a clear view of your position on this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #157 July 21, 2011 taxing their wealthstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #158 July 21, 2011 Quotetaxing their wealth Give me an example of a non-shithole country that has successfully pulled this off and where everyone is now happily basking in equality of wealth. Hell, give me an example of any country ...shithole or not. (Yeah, I know ...if you could only just shoot all the disagree-ers it might work. But that's been tried, too.) I don't think you can even come up with a reasonably large, autonomous, utopian hippie commune that didn't eventually collapse under the weight of it's own dumbassity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #159 July 21, 2011 >Give me an example of a non-shithole country that has successfully pulled this off >and where everyone is now happily basking in equality of wealth. Norway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #160 July 21, 2011 Quote>Give me an example of a non-shithole country that has successfully pulled this off >and where everyone is now happily basking in equality of wealth. Norway. Nice try, but Norway doesn't just tax the rich. All Norwegians pay a 1% wealth tax ...not just "the wealthy". "Since the wealth tax is a flat fee, a number of people end up paying more than 50% tax on their income, and for some individuals the total tax burden adds up to more than 100%, in which case they are forced to sell some of their assets or lend on them in order to pay their taxes." "The Norwegian government considers the wealth tax to be an important tool for redistribution of wealth. The basic premise on which the wealth tax is founded is that the confiscation of 1% of all private property every year, will reduce the gap between the rich and the poor, ignoring the fact that confiscation of private property necessarily reduces the ability of private individuals to create wealth, and hence work places for the less well off." Looks like "the poor" get screwed in Norway, too. You would expect this could only happen somewhere where they have a king. Oh, wait ....they do have a king. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #161 July 21, 2011 >Nice try, but Norway doesn't just tax the rich. No one claimed they did. They do tax their WEALTH though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #162 July 21, 2011 Quote>Give me an example of a non-shithole country that has successfully pulled this off >and where everyone is now happily basking in equality of wealth. Norway. I hear this all the time, Canadian Liberals whine that we are still not as socialist as they demand we become. Apples and Oranges. First off when it comes to Canada versus Norway, Norway does not have to support the perpetual takers of confederation called Quebec with their constant threats to separate if they can not have their free cake and eat it all at the same time. Secondly you can not possible compare Norway to the USA. What is Norway's population? Just under 5 million? Almost 312 million compared to 5 million? Apples and Oranges. If people are so desperate to live like Norwegians do, they should move to Norway. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #163 July 21, 2011 >If people are so desperate to live like Norwegians do, they should move to Norway. You seem very sensitive. No one is claiming that they want to "live like Norwegians do." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #164 July 22, 2011 Quote>Nice try, but Norway doesn't just tax the rich. No one claimed they did. They do tax their WEALTH though. Yes, they tax everyone's "wealth" ...even the poor folks who must sell the family caribou or raise their debt ceiling to pay up. No problem if you're forced to pay more than you have ...the (wealthy, BTW) grand overseer sees to it that all that is needed is provided. But this still hasn't resulted in "equality of wealth" (yet). Nice flat rate, though. Flat income taxes, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #165 July 22, 2011 Quote You seem very sensitive. No one is claiming that they want to "live like Norwegians do." I'll leave their icy roads and dark winters but I'll take their women and 2am sunsets in summer... Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #166 July 22, 2011 >Yes, they tax everyone's "wealth" ...even the poor folks Uh, no. The tax only applies to people who have in excess of NOK700,000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #167 July 22, 2011 Quote>Yes, they tax everyone's "wealth" ...even the poor folks Uh, no. The tax only applies to people who have in excess of NOK700,000. Appears you have it right: http://www.kpmg.no/arch/_img/9585751.pdf (NOK700,000 is about $130,000) These guys appear to be wrong (third paragraph) Maybe someone living in Norway can provide accurate real world info. How do housing prices compare with the NOK700k threshold? Cost of living? How does this wealth tax affect the "average" Norwegian? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #168 July 22, 2011 QuoteHow does this wealth tax affect the "average" Norwegian? they live long and happy lives...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #169 July 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteHow does this wealth tax affect the "average" Norwegian? they live long and happy lives... About the same as most other Western European countries or Israel or Australia or Jordan, etc. I'm sure that the folks in these other countries are happy, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #170 July 23, 2011 going to the line... QuoteExperts say that because US government bonds, or Treasuries, are seen as the safest financial asset many investors will struggle to protect themselves against the risk of a default. "If you polled all the money managers who own Treasuries, I'm not sure they would know what to do," said Thomas O'Connor, a trader in New York at Pierpont Securities. With just days to go, the prospect of a deficit deal that preserves America's prized 'AAA' rating is also receding. Ratings agency Standard & Poor's has warned that unless a deal convinces it that politicians are serious about cutting the deficit, then the US risks a downgrade for the first time in its history. That will deal another blow to an economy that investors say is already suffering because of the protracted and politically divisive talks in Washington. "It's having a negative impact on business sentiment, on consumer sentiment and it's not helpful to an economy facing challenges," said Tony Crescenzi of Pimco, which runs the world's biggest bond fund. Investors and politicians will be reminded by the scale of those challenges when the latest US growth figures are released on Friday. The world's biggest economy is expected to have grown just 1.6pc in the second quarter, down from the 1.9pc in the first three months of the year. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8657016/Barack-Obama-warns-of-market-meltdown-if-US-debt-talks-fail.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #171 July 24, 2011 I happen to agree with him that taxes must be raised, and that spending must be cut. Everybody with even half a brain recognizes what must be done at a high level. But then the talking heads and politicians get the partisan pot boiling, everybody turns off their brain, and we never get to agreement on how to actually do it. On the other side of the coin, he's quite the hypocrite for stating this position so soon after ramming one of the most expensive social welfare programs in history down everybody's throat. But then you remember he's just another politician so what else to expect." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,648 #172 July 25, 2011 QuoteI happen to agree with him that taxes must be raised, and that spending must be cut. Everybody with even half a brain recognizes what must be done at a high level. Well, that excludes the Tea Party, then.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #173 July 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteI happen to agree with him that taxes must be raised, and that spending must be cut. Everybody with even half a brain recognizes what must be done at a high level. Well, that excludes the Tea Party, then. so is that the total count then? all the Tea Party + 535 guys in a big building in Washington + 1 other guy in a big White house in Washington (and all his yes men) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #174 July 27, 2011 will they/won't they? QuoteThe US debt crisis has escalated after Republicans were forced to rewrite their proposal to lift the debt ceiling, because they miscalculated how much the original plan would cut spending. In an embarrassing development for John Boehner, the Republican Congress speaker, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) ruled on Tuesday night that his bill would have only cut spending by $850bn (£517bn)over the next decade, not the $1.2tn he had aimed for. Republicans are now racing to rewrite the legislation, and have pushed back a congressional vote on the plan from Wednesday to Thursday at the earliest. Although Boehner was already struggling to find support for his package, the delay increases the risk that Washington will fail to agree a deal to raise the debt ceiling before 2 August, when the federal government is expected to run out of money. The dollar dropped against other currencies on Wednesday morning as investors faced the possibility that America could default. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jul/27/debt-crisis-republicans-plan-bunglestay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #175 July 27, 2011 Quotewill they/won't they? QuoteThe US debt crisis has escalated after Republicans were forced to rewrite their proposal to lift the debt ceiling, because they miscalculated how much the original plan would cut spending. In an embarrassing development for John Boehner, the Republican Congress speaker, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) ruled on Tuesday night that his bill would have only cut spending by $850bn (£517bn)over the next decade, not the $1.2tn he had aimed for. Republicans are now racing to rewrite the legislation, and have pushed back a congressional vote on the plan from Wednesday to Thursday at the earliest. Although Boehner was already struggling to find support for his package, the delay increases the risk that Washington will fail to agree a deal to raise the debt ceiling before 2 August, when the federal government is expected to run out of money. The dollar dropped against other currencies on Wednesday morning as investors faced the possibility that America could default. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jul/27/debt-crisis-republicans-plan-bungle In case you missed it No default http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/07/25/obama-to-banks-were-not-defaulting/ Just more fear mongering Similar to his Social Securty bs comments"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
