The haves and the have nots

[jgoose71 0]

I was watching on the news and once again the President was beating the drums of social justice. He dreams of a world where everyone has plenty. Right now we have the haves and the have nots.

The next obvious question I have to follow up with is what about he do and the do nots?

Everyone having everything is a great goal. But you will always have a section of society that will not got to school, will not work, will not contribute anything but will still expect the same things as the guys out there making America great. What do you do with them?

The idea of social justice is that everyone contributes and everyone gets credit. What do you do to the guys that won't contribute? And I'm not talking about the guys that can't. There are people that try but get doors shut on them. They obviously need help. I'm talking about people that scam the system and refuse because they can and throw off the social dynamic, making the system that all liberals dream of unfeasible.

What do you do with those guys?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[dreamdancer 0]

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I'm talking about people that scam the system and refuse because they can and throw off the social dynamic

you're talking about those bankers again aren't you?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[AdamLanes 1]

What do slave owners do to slaves who refused to work?

[hwt 0]

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What do slave owners do to slaves who refused to work?

_____________________________________
I find the term slave a joke right??
Since the beginning of mankind . the inhabitants of this planet had to "kill or be killed" and "work or starve".
If you don't want to work , then starve . do not go around looking for a hand out from society .
Liberals have great dreams . but what they fail to understand is you sacrifice freedom for your "everyone earns the same amount" dream of yours.
which takes away drive and the urge to exceed and freedom to the American dream. please keep your socialist utopia . Show me one country where socialism works... Cuba?? Russia??

[dreamdancer 0]

our national health service in the uk works very well

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[AdamLanes 1]

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our national health service in the uk works very well

Really? http://www.debtbombshell.com/

[dreamdancer 0]

yes, it works very well thankyou
(and you don't have to worry about the have nots - double score)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[loumeinhart 0]

[kallend 1,649]

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Right now we have the haves and the have nots.

Well, it would be better if we have not the have nots.

Russell's paradox comes to mind.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,649]

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you're talking about those bankers again aren't you?

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If you mean the close to 400 Lending institutions that are sitting empty since 2006 because of poor business decisions?

Then yes, I guess you could call them have-nots.

Are you confusing banks with bankers?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[loumeinhart 0]

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Are you confusing banks with bankers?

Nope!

Bankers work for banks..banks hire bankers.. unless I'm completely off base..

[muff528 3]

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our national health service in the uk works very well

Really? http://www.debtbombshell.com/

Get real! The counter is not even up to a single trillion yet. (That's only a billion in "oldspeak"). Nothing to worry about there.

[billvon 2,435]

>Show me one country where socialism works...

Communism is working pretty well in China.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Communism is working pretty well in China.

Karl Marx must be rolling in his grave because what is going on in China these days is not what Karl envisioned. China is very much a nation of "haves" and "have nots".

Capitalism is far from perfect. It produces winners and losers and hard work alone does not guarantee success. But capitalism does still offer people the ability to chase their dreams and with effort and some luck, they can make their own lives better for themselves and their families. Sitting back and whining about what a "have not victim of the world" you are will never improve your conditions.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[marks2065 0]

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>Show me one country where socialism works...

Communism is working pretty well in China.

Yep it is, if you like to starve get locked up for your thoughts and get beaten. go to the rural areas of china and the jails then tell me how well it is working.

[muff528 3]

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>Show me one country where socialism works...

Communism is working pretty well in China.

Yes, Communism does seem to work pretty well for China. Is it also working well for all the Chinese and the not-so-Chinese who live there?

[billvon 2,435]

>Karl Marx must be rolling in his grave because what is going on in China these days
>is not what Karl envisioned.

Agreed. And what is going on here is not what we thought of 200 years ago as capitalism. But both work, mainly because both borrow freely from other economic structures.

>Capitalism is far from perfect. It produces winners and losers and hard work alone
>does not guarantee success. But capitalism does still offer people the ability to chase
>their dreams and with effort and some luck, they can make their own lives better for
>themselves and their families.

Also agreed. Keep in mind, though, that one of the reasons our system works at all is because it is not an unregulated free market. We have socialist roads, schools, military, communications infrastructure and water supplies. We have very heavily regulated industry and moderately regulated commerce. Some regulatory agencies are totalitarian; some are meritocracies. Taking the best of each system is a lot better than a slavish devotion to some "-ism."

That's why China is doing so well. They're adopting parts of capitalism and encouraging a free market economy, but retaining many of the parts of communism that work. Again, using the best of each system will get you much better results than an obsession with any one of them.

[marks2065 0]

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>Karl Marx must be rolling in his grave because what is going on in China these days
>is not what Karl envisioned.

Agreed. And what is going on here is not what we thought of 200 years ago as capitalism. But both work, mainly because both borrow freely from other economic structures.

>Capitalism is far from perfect. It produces winners and losers and hard work alone
>does not guarantee success. But capitalism does still offer people the ability to chase
>their dreams and with effort and some luck, they can make their own lives better for
>themselves and their families.

Also agreed. Keep in mind, though, that one of the reasons our system works at all is because it is not an unregulated free market. We have socialist roads, schools, military, communications infrastructure and water supplies. We have very heavily regulated industry and moderately regulated commerce. Some regulatory agencies are totalitarian; some are meritocracies. Taking the best of each system is a lot better than a slavish devotion to some "-ism."

That's why China is doing so well. They're adopting parts of capitalism and encouraging a free market economy, but retaining many of the parts of communism that work. Again, using the best of each system will get you much better results than an obsession with any one of them.

what I have seen is capitlism doesn't work when it is mixed with socialism.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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We have socialist roads, schools, military, communications infrastructure and water supplies. We have very heavily regulated industry and moderately regulated commerce. Some regulatory agencies are totalitarian; some are meritocracies. Taking the best of each system is a lot better than a slavish devotion to some "-ism."

America (and it's allies) has turned into a nation of "Takers" who are driving away "Makers". "Makers" are a dying breed in America and both Donkeys and Elephants are responsible for this trend. It's easy to make special interest spending promises to people you want to vote for you since it's not your money you are spending. But there will not be anymore money once all the "Makers" have been turned into "Takers". There is no denying there is a need for government control in certain sectors of society. Without some government control there is anarchy. But the Big Government bureaucracy is out of control. How much money does America waste pushing money around through it's IRS tax laws? The only people who think the IRS serves a useful purpose are the bureaucrats, the accountants and their lawyers. I chose the wrong career 25+ years ago when I got into the software business (now migrating to China and India). I should have become an accountant or a lawyer.

I am afraid America (and it's allies) are on a road to destruction because "Takers" are the largest growing demographic and "Makers" are going the way of the dinosaur. Every dominant society in the history of humanity has fallen and the US is no different. The sooner the "Takers" continue to drive away the "Makers", the sooner America will be destroyed.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,435]

>what I have seen is capitlism doesn't work when it is mixed with socialism.

So you think that the US highway system is a detriment to our economy? We'd all be better off without a military? I think most people would disagree with you.

[dreamdancer 0]

i agree that bankers are 'takers'

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[loumeinhart 0]

Dreamdancer, what do banks take?

[kelpdiver 2]

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That's why China is doing so well. They're adopting parts of capitalism and encouraging a free market economy, but retaining many of the parts of communism that work. Again, using the best of each system will get you much better results than an obsession with any one of them.

At this point, China looks more like a highly regulated capitalist nation, with a wealth divide far greater than we have here.

Would you want to be a Foxconn employee? Pretty nasty suicide rate there. Great for Apple, not so good for the people who live in these employee cities (reminds me of the US ones circa 1900)

China is succeeding because it has a billion cheap workers that undercut the South Korean cheap labor who undercut the Japanese labor as each became wealthier. Normally China would fall prey to the same problem (Vietnam next), but it has the sheer size of workers.

Cuba seems much closer to the mark, and despite a crippling embargo, still persists long after the fall of the Soviet Union's sponsorship.

[jgoose71 0]

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That's why China is doing so well. They're adopting parts of capitalism and encouraging a free market economy, but retaining many of the parts of communism that work. Again, using the best of each system will get you much better results than an obsession with any one of them.

Economically the government is doing well because they have a nation of slave labor. You need to spend more time in main land china to truly understand the living conditions of the average Chinese dude.

Are you saying your willing to trade your life style that you have right now for the life style of the average Chinese man? I'd like to see that.

As I said earlier, we have the doers and the do nots. The Chinese government has a special way to deal with them also. Do you think that it would be OK for the US government to treat US citizens the same way?

Do you really understand the trade offs?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 2,435]

>At this point, China looks more like a highly regulated capitalist nation . . .

Agreed. They are a communist (more socialist now) government that's got a good deal of capitalism thrown in. It's the use of several economic systems that is working for them.

>China is succeeding because it has a billion cheap workers that undercut the
>South Korean cheap labor who undercut the Japanese labor as each became >wealthier.

And now China is becoming wealthier:

======================
NEWS: ANALYSIS & COMMENTARY

How Rising Wages Are Changing The Game In China
A labor shortage has pay soaring. That is sure to send ripples around the globe.

For years, Yongjin Group has earned a decent profit selling lamps and furniture to the likes of Wal-Mart (WMT ), Home Depot (HD ), Target (TGT ), and Pottery Barn. But lately the company has seen its margins shrink to 5% -- half what Yongjin made when it opened its factory in the steamy southern Chinese city of Dongguan 14 years ago. Why? Labor shortages are forcing the company to boost wages. Last year salaries surged 40%, to an average of $160 a month, and Yongjin still can't find enough workers. "This business needs a lot of labor," says President Sam Lin. "This is a very tough challenge."

Some 1,500 miles northeast, in the city of Suzhou, Emerson Climate Technologies Co. is facing similar woes. The maker of air conditioner compressors has seen turnover for some jobs hit 20% annually, and Emerson General Manager David Warth says it's all he can do to keep his 800 employees from jumping ship to Samsung, Siemens (SI ), Nokia (NOK ), and other multinationals that are now operating in the tech manufacturing hub. "It has gotten to the point that we are just swapping folks and raising salaries," says Warth.

Wait a minute. Doesn't China have an inexhaustible supply of cheap labor? Not any longer. From the textile and toy factories of the south to the corporate headquarters and research labs in Beijing and Shanghai, the No. 1 challenge today is finding and keeping good workers. Turnover in some low-tech industries approaches 50%, according to the Institute of Contemporary Observation, a Shenzhen labor research group. Guangdong Province says it has 2.5 million jobs that remain unfilled, while Jiangsu, Zhejiang, and Shandong provinces say they, too, face shortages of qualified workers. "Before, people talked about China's unlimited labor supply," says Zhang Juwei, deputy director of the Institute of Population & Labor Economics at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing. "We should revise that: China is facing a limited supply of labor."
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