This is Going to Sound Pretentious, but...(Federal vs. County Jury Duty)

[Squeak 17]

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>People will generally raise the tenor of their behavior to how they appear.

Which, I imagine, is how the English system justifies their wigs. "Respect for the court" and all that.

But overall, people who need to be dressed well to act well are idiots, and we are better off without them on juries.

there's a whole boat load of research which would argue against that.
Particularly in the use of school dress codes for students.
Generally behaviour improves,and grades improve.
Go figure

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Squeak 17]

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>I am not obligated as a citizen to donate blood.

Right. And you can get out of jury duty legally. We should encourage people who are willing to serve on juries, not discourage them - even if they don't have a pants suit or a dress.

If I'm ever on trial for something, I want Wendy on the jury - not a car salesman in a natty suit.

Even though said car salesman, might well have an unbiased and objective view and undertake their role as a juror with an open mind?
If "clothes don’t make the man" why are you judging them on it??

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 2,409]

>Even though said car salesman, might well have an unbiased and objective view

Well, he might - but I know Wendy does.

And the niceness of his suit does not change the likelihood of him being objective.

[Squeak 17]

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>Even though said car salesman, might well have an unbiased and objective view

Well, he might - but I know Wendy does.

And the niceness of his suit does not change the likelihood of him being objective.

No but you were prejudice against him and his profession. Poor form.
And Wendy would be considered Bias on your jury

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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>I am not obligated as a citizen to donate blood.

Right. And you can get out of jury duty legally. We should encourage people who are willing to serve on juries, not discourage them - even if they don't have a pants suit or a dress.

If I'm ever on trial for something, I want Wendy on the jury - not a car salesman in a natty suit.

Agreed; I would rather have (either, preferably both) Wendy/s on the jury.

But, how do you get out of county legally?

And, having said that, both Wendys seem to have the desire to dress their best. I did not mean for this thread to take a wardrobe turn, but clearly those I would want on my jury would put forth more effort than those I was previously surrounded by in county.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[Squeak 17]

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>I am not obligated as a citizen to donate blood.

Right. And you can get out of jury duty legally. We should encourage people who are willing to serve on juries, not discourage them - even if they don't have a pants suit or a dress.

If I'm ever on trial for something, I want Wendy on the jury - not a car salesman in a natty suit.

Agreed; I would rather have (either, preferably both) Wendy/s on the jury.

That's easy for you and Bill to say when you both know somthing of the person already.
That's not how jury selection works.
You dont know them and you are only allowed a small version of their hsitory and their appearence to guide the selectors choices.
Well dressed people are not always objective, educated and impartial "underdressed" people are not always bias, partial, or uneducated.
A cross section of of peers would be a better choice i think.,

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[ryoder 1,391]

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I figure I have a duty to serve, was juror #5 and foreman of the jury in a felony child abuse case in county superior court (a mother duct-taped her out of control 17 year old daughter to a hope chest), and would do it again - I made a big difference by talking the 11 other jurors out of a guilty vote on one of the felony charges because the term 'with violence' wasn't met as defined in the law.

Ah, so you played the Henry Fonda role?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

For the "90% of life is just showing up" people, I suppose a t-shirt and spandex is good enough for a wedding, a funeral, even jury duty if one owns nothing else.

For everyone else, I would think it wise to invest in a dress, pants suit, or coat & tie since--however offensive it might be to hear--this is generally considered more respectful attire for such occasions.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[Squeak 17]

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For the "90% of life is just showing up" people, I suppose a t-shirt and spandex is good enough for a wedding, a funeral, even jury duty if one owns nothing else.

For everyone else, I would think it wise to invest in a dress, pants suit, or coat & tie since--however offensive it might be to hear--this is generally considered more respectful attire for such occasions.

I dont own a suit at all or "coat and tie".
Last time i wore one was as a groomsman for a mates wedding, He supplied the suits,
Never worn one to any other wedding or funeral.
Never had anyone give me the impression i was being disrespectful, in any of those occasions.
When you say "generally considered more respectful attire" who is this "generally" you speak of? I mix in a wide cross section of community from working class to corporate high rollers. Granted i don't do "black Tie" affairs but not because i don't own a suit and not because i don't get invited, i have been.


Me thinks your thread title implies more than Sounding.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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When you say "generally considered more respectful attire" who is this "generally" you speak of?

When you see a movie scene of a wedding, a funeral, the jury in a courtroom hearing a case, you see dresses, pants suits, coats & ties most of the time. This is because such attire is what the audience expects to see for said affairs.

It is amazing to me this would come as a surprise to anyone.

We will agree to disagree, as I am tired of the clothing deliberation.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[micro 0]

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>People will generally raise the tenor of their behavior to how they appear.

Which, I imagine, is how the English system justifies their wigs. "Respect for the court" and all that.

But overall, people who need to be dressed well to act well are idiots, and we are better off without them on juries.

Amazing that after quite a long time of not posting, your long history of misunderstanding (intentional or not) my posts here shows up so quickly, Bill. I did not say NEED. While it is true that the locus of control should be within the person, the truth is that the norms of behavior are different from location to location (i.e. church, court, dropzone, love shack) and the style of dress is different as well. It's akin to different norms of behavior for different cultures - you don't act the same doing business in Japan as you do in Germany or Israel. If you did, you wouldn't get the business. People who try to deny this simply, self-evident truth are the real idiots.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[skybytch 259]

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Showing up is slightly better than not caring at all; it certainly is not 90% of anything.

I showed up for jury duty wearing the best clothing I owned - a pair of jeans, a shirt that didn't have a skydiving logo on it and a pair of tennies.

When I was chosen to sit on a death penalty case, despite my less than professional appearance, I went out and bought two pairs of nicer pants and two nicer tops and a pair of shoes to wear so I wouldn't have to wear jeans and tennies when everyone else was wearing business casual or "better.". Luckily I could afford to do that at the time. If I hadn't had the money, I would have continued to show up in the best clothes I owned - ie jeans and tshirts and tennies.

Because at that point, me showing up (on time every time, after a 45 minute drive one way to get there) was far more important to the court than what I was wearing when I arrived.

You judged people that you do not know, found them to be lacking due to their clothing (despite the fact that you do not know their backgrounds), and then posted your opinion about people you don't know on a public forum. And you're upset that I'm judging you? LMFAO

[pyrotech 0]

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You judged people that you do not know, found them to be lacking due to their clothing (despite the fact that you do not know their backgrounds), and then posted your opinion about people you don't know on a public forum. And you're upset that I'm judging you? LMFAO

Don't forget, chairs were also placed next to each other, and people were speaking poorly. This is OBVIOUSLY far too low-class to tolerate.

[skybytch 259]

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Don't forget, chairs were also placed next to each other, and people were speaking poorly.

True. Which really makes me wonder how in the world the OP can stand being at the dropzone?

[squirrel 0]

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When you see a movie scene of a wedding,

we got married in leather, leaping from a plane....guess we belong to the 10% group. thats ok, normal is boring, broke, and going nowhere. people today are so "in the box" that society has created its crazy. personally, i became much more successful wearing a t-shirt and not some monkey suit with a slip knot around my neck. and i would hope that if i ever got dragged in a courtroom that i would be judge by people that cared about the facts, not what they are wearing.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[micro 0]

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When you see a movie scene of a wedding,

we got married in leather, leaping from a plane....guess we belong to the 10% group. thats ok, normal is boring, broke, and going nowhere. people today are so "in the box" that society has created its crazy. personally, i became much more successful wearing a t-shirt and not some monkey suit with a slip knot around my neck. and i would hope that if i ever got dragged in a courtroom that i would be judge by people that cared about the facts, not what they are wearing.

I completely agree with you. When I look at people like Richard Branson and other successful people who think in unconventional ways, it's refreshing.

As unfortunate as it is, however, the majority of people in modern society do not think/feel/react this way and if you showed up to court, charged with a crime, with a disheveled appearance, dirty and in tattered clothing, with mannerisms to match, people in the jury box will form an impression of you - as predjudicial as that may be. The facts of the case may be entirely opposite of your appearance even. It's sad, but it's true. So really... you'd roll the dice against yourself? Hard to believe, but go ahead and gamble. Not much of a betting man myself. I'd rather do things that help my chances for success.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[squirrel 0]

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When you see a movie scene of a wedding,

we got married in leather, leaping from a plane....guess we belong to the 10% group. thats ok, normal is boring, broke, and going nowhere. people today are so "in the box" that society has created its crazy. personally, i became much more successful wearing a t-shirt and not some monkey suit with a slip knot around my neck. and i would hope that if i ever got dragged in a courtroom that i would be judge by people that cared about the facts, not what they are wearing.

I completely agree with you. When I look at people like Richard Branson and other successful people who think in unconventional ways, it's refreshing.

As unfortunate as it is, however, the majority of people in modern society do not think/feel/react this way and if you showed up to court, charged with a crime, with a disheveled appearance, dirty and in tattered clothing, with mannerisms to match, people in the jury box will form an impression of you - as predjudicial as that may be. The facts of the case may be entirely opposite of your appearance even. It's sad, but it's true. So really... you'd roll the dice against yourself? Hard to believe, but go ahead and gamble. Not much of a betting man myself. I'd rather do things that help my chances for success.

good points. for some reason a tie is very uncomfortable to wear. so a collar shirt is the most i would wear. having been called to jury duty at the local county courthouse, a simple collar shirt is acceptable.

but watching the continuing dumbing down of society, and the fact that many people have very set and skewed paradigms in place, i accept that if i were to be judge by my peers, i am pretty fucked anyway.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[micro 0]

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When you see a movie scene of a wedding,

we got married in leather, leaping from a plane....guess we belong to the 10% group. thats ok, normal is boring, broke, and going nowhere. people today are so "in the box" that society has created its crazy. personally, i became much more successful wearing a t-shirt and not some monkey suit with a slip knot around my neck. and i would hope that if i ever got dragged in a courtroom that i would be judge by people that cared about the facts, not what they are wearing.

I completely agree with you. When I look at people like Richard Branson and other successful people who think in unconventional ways, it's refreshing.

As unfortunate as it is, however, the majority of people in modern society do not think/feel/react this way and if you showed up to court, charged with a crime, with a disheveled appearance, dirty and in tattered clothing, with mannerisms to match, people in the jury box will form an impression of you - as predjudicial as that may be. The facts of the case may be entirely opposite of your appearance even. It's sad, but it's true. So really... you'd roll the dice against yourself? Hard to believe, but go ahead and gamble. Not much of a betting man myself. I'd rather do things that help my chances for success.

good points. for some reason a tie is very uncomfortable to wear. so a collar shirt is the most i would wear. having been called to jury duty at the local county courthouse, a simple collar shirt is acceptable.

but watching the continuing dumbing down of society, and the fact that many people have very set and skewed paradigms in place, i accept that if i were to be judge by my peers, i am pretty fucked anyway.

yep, again total agreement. from my time on a jury, i was totally appalled by the apathy and sheer stupidity of so many - the sheer inability to use simple logic. don't know what i'd do if i ever got hauled in for something. my faith in society sounds like it on par with yours.

also agree about the tie thing - can't stand them and i'm glad i don't work in an industry where i have to wear them. feel like i'm choking. i do like sport coats however. went to the symphony last night in slacks, black t, black sport coat and fit right in.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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when everyone else was wearing business casual or "better.".

So we agree one would expect to see most people wearing business casual or "better" when attending jury duty and not the other way around.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[squirrel 0]

"went to the symphony last night in slacks, black t, black sport coat and fit right in. "

makes me think of the last show we went to at the Pantages in Los Angeles. it was a matinee, so we went casual, ...jeans, t-shirt, fleece. glad we did to because there was a crazy storm, flooded the streets, and all the folks in leather shoes, slacks, nylons, and such were really hating it slopping through a foot of water to cross the street to get to the theater! my tennis shoes got wet, bummer.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[micro 0]

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"went to the symphony last night in slacks, black t, black sport coat and fit right in. "

makes me think of the last show we went to at the Pantages in Los Angeles. it was a matinee, so we went casual, ...jeans, t-shirt, fleece. glad we did to because there was a crazy storm, flooded the streets, and all the folks in leather shoes, slacks, nylons, and such were really hating it slopping through a foot of water to cross the street to get to the theater! my tennis shoes got wet, bummer.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[billvon 2,409]

>While it is true that the locus of control should be within the person, the truth is that
>the norms of behavior are different from location to location (i.e. church, court,
>dropzone, love shack) and the style of dress is different as well.

Of course. And what represents "respectful" changes among those people as well.

>(i.e. church, court, dropzone, love shack)

Also true. And if you work at a courthouse, and expect people who work at a dropzone to give up a day or two to try to provide justice for someone they don't know, they will tend to wear clothing that THEY think is acceptable - which might be a staff polo shirt.

>People who try to deny this simply, self-evident truth are the real idiots.

Are you calling me an idiot?

[micro 0]

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>People will generally raise the tenor of their behavior to how they appear.

...But overall, people who need to be dressed well to act well are idiots, and we are better off without them on juries.

Were you calling me an idiot here, Bill?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Shotgun 1]

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When you see a movie scene of a wedding, a funeral, the jury in a courtroom hearing a case, you see dresses, pants suits, coats & ties most of the time.

I rented 12 Angry Men to find out what I should wear to court. And I discovered that, as a juror, I should be a white man in a suit. And, well . . . Hey, at least I got the "white" part right.

[skybytch 259]

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So we agree one would expect to see most people wearing business casual or "better" when attending jury duty and not the other way around.

No, not all. More like it's uncomfortable to be dressed casually when the majority of people around you are wearing suits and dresses. Kinda like you felt surrounded by people in casual clothes while you were wearing your professional uniform, without the whole being pretentious thing.