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Meso 38
It's an interesting area of debate we enter into now, I had the same debate with a Jehovah's witness who wanted to convert me in the main road a couple years ago.
You see, if God is all knowing and all powerful he understood perfectly prior to his creation of man that they wouldn't follow (not all, not even majority). He understood man's actions despite the idea of giving them free will, so I will say to you what I said to the man on the street. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be pre-programmed by God to follow his orders than have free will and burn in hell because he never showed me enough evidence. A analogy I used was- if you had a child and you were aware prior to having this child that they would be born deaf, dumb and blind with a painful disease (sounds about equal to the torment hell carries according to the bible) and suffering in the process. Would you still want to have the kid? Would you choose to have it suffer terribly just so you could have that child? I know I wouldn't.
Also if that were the case, what about all the suffering that occurred in the world prior to the birth of Jesus Christ? If God understand buy desired for people to know him and understand him, why did he wait thousands and thousands of years before providing any evidence of him or his existence or teachings. The existence of Jesus and teachings of your God definitely didn't stop a huge crime rate or the suffering of man, in fact if anything it made it more prominent due to the religious wars that followed.
Why would God create a society knowing they would kill in his name. Surely if you can see that your creation will cause so much damage to each other, if you have any compassion you'll rather not be praised than have that.
You see, if God is all knowing and all powerful he understood perfectly prior to his creation of man that they wouldn't follow (not all, not even majority). He understood man's actions despite the idea of giving them free will, so I will say to you what I said to the man on the street. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be pre-programmed by God to follow his orders than have free will and burn in hell because he never showed me enough evidence. A analogy I used was- if you had a child and you were aware prior to having this child that they would be born deaf, dumb and blind with a painful disease (sounds about equal to the torment hell carries according to the bible) and suffering in the process. Would you still want to have the kid? Would you choose to have it suffer terribly just so you could have that child? I know I wouldn't.
Also if that were the case, what about all the suffering that occurred in the world prior to the birth of Jesus Christ? If God understand buy desired for people to know him and understand him, why did he wait thousands and thousands of years before providing any evidence of him or his existence or teachings. The existence of Jesus and teachings of your God definitely didn't stop a huge crime rate or the suffering of man, in fact if anything it made it more prominent due to the religious wars that followed.
Why would God create a society knowing they would kill in his name. Surely if you can see that your creation will cause so much damage to each other, if you have any compassion you'll rather not be praised than have that.
normiss 622
That's totally unreasonable.
Really.
To me, it's beyond a blind leap of faith to believe all that rubbish.
Really.
To me, it's beyond a blind leap of faith to believe all that rubbish.
QuoteQuoteStaking your life on a non-existent 'being' is just plain dumb.
It's not like you're risking anything by believing in God.
Belief in God is reasonable. Disbelieving Him is the unreasonable thing. It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God. It's a blind leap to disbelieve in Him, because you have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral. Belief in God is reasonable.
We have a 'special' word reserved for that particular argument ...
It's .... Bollocks!
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
Meso 38
You sir, make no sense.
How is not believing in him unreasonable?
Yes it is.
There's 2 points to address here...
First, you make the point that one should need a designer. Why does something need a designer? Do you not believe in the concept of infinity, because if you believe in the concept of infinity, things don't need a creator. Also, if in your idea everything needs a creator, who created God? If you have a theory you need to have a logical basis point for it, not "Everything needs a creator... EXCEPT God, he doesn't need one, he always existed". If one entity can exist in terms of an infinite being, any entity can exist in such a sense. Quite simply, you may pick- either there is infinity and things don't need a creator or you may go with the idea that infinity isn't true and that everything needs a creator, in which case your theory of Gods existence is flawed.
You tie morality with God. Morals aren't passed down from a God. Tribes people all over the world have shown moral activity people showed it long before the Abrahamic God become popular. Morals are something that comes from your brain, the same area that controls compassion, empathy, sympathy. These aren't religious ideas. They are things which exist in developed brains, dogs have no God yet they show empathy and mourning. These are signs of attributes which contribute to peoples ideas of morals. The bible just included a lot of morals which people already had.
How is not believing in him unreasonable?
Quote
It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God
Yes it is.
QuoteYou have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral
There's 2 points to address here...
First, you make the point that one should need a designer. Why does something need a designer? Do you not believe in the concept of infinity, because if you believe in the concept of infinity, things don't need a creator. Also, if in your idea everything needs a creator, who created God? If you have a theory you need to have a logical basis point for it, not "Everything needs a creator... EXCEPT God, he doesn't need one, he always existed". If one entity can exist in terms of an infinite being, any entity can exist in such a sense. Quite simply, you may pick- either there is infinity and things don't need a creator or you may go with the idea that infinity isn't true and that everything needs a creator, in which case your theory of Gods existence is flawed.
You tie morality with God. Morals aren't passed down from a God. Tribes people all over the world have shown moral activity people showed it long before the Abrahamic God become popular. Morals are something that comes from your brain, the same area that controls compassion, empathy, sympathy. These aren't religious ideas. They are things which exist in developed brains, dogs have no God yet they show empathy and mourning. These are signs of attributes which contribute to peoples ideas of morals. The bible just included a lot of morals which people already had.
QuoteHijackers killed their captives during negotiations.
Sailboat hijack
Very sad.
Everyone has to go sometime. We generally don't get to choose the time or the place. But this is one of those things that cause people who don't believe in God to bring out the argument of "If there is a God, why would this kind of thing happen." That's crazy talk. Thinking that God is going to treat everyone like royalty. Everything that happens in this world gives us the opportunity to grow. Imagine if you never let your kid get hurt or lose their money or experience things that happen in the world.
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
normiss 622
So the bits in the bible about being treated like royalty because you believe IS rubbish.
Thought so.
thanks
Thought so.
thanks
david3 0
QuoteQuoteHijackers killed their captives during negotiations.
Sailboat hijack
Very sad.
Everyone has to go sometime. We generally don't get to choose the time or the place. But this is one of those things that cause people who don't believe in God to bring out the argument of "If there is a God, why would this kind of thing happen." That's crazy talk. Thinking that God is going to treat everyone like royalty. Everything that happens in this world gives us the opportunity to grow. Imagine if you never let your kid get hurt or lose their money or experience things that happen in the world.
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
I’m sure Jean and Scott Adam, Philis Macay and Bob Riggle considered it pure joy, my brother, when they faced these particular trials. Gosh they were lucky.
.
QuoteYou sir, make no sense.
How is not believing in him unreasonable?Quote
It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God
Yes it is.QuoteYou have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral
There's 2 points to address here...
First, you make the point that one should need a designer. Why does something need a designer? Do you not believe in the concept of infinity, because if you believe in the concept of infinity, things don't need a creator. Also, if in your idea everything needs a creator, who created God? If you have a theory you need to have a logical basis point for it, not "Everything needs a creator... EXCEPT God, he doesn't need one, he always existed". If one entity can exist in terms of an infinite being, any entity can exist in such a sense. Quite simply, you may pick- either there is infinity and things don't need a creator or you may go with the idea that infinity isn't true and that everything needs a creator, in which case your theory of Gods existence is flawed.
You tie morality with God. Morals aren't passed down from a God. Tribes people all over the world have shown moral activity people showed it long before the Abrahamic God become popular. Morals are something that comes from your brain, the same area that controls compassion, empathy, sympathy. These aren't religious ideas. They are things which exist in developed brains, dogs have no God yet they show empathy and mourning. These are signs of attributes which contribute to peoples ideas of morals. The bible just included a lot of morals which people already had.
Everything does need a designer. I'm looking at my iPhone right now and I'm 100% sure that I wasn't sitting here wishing for something that could keep me from being bored and it poofed in out of thin air.
We live in a world where everything in it is dependent on cause. Everything is. When you see a body of water that is still and you suddenly see concentric rings going out from one another, it's reasonable to conclude that something caused it. It’s not reasonable to think "wow, look at that. Spontaneous generation of ripples!" Now, the water itself didn't cause it. Something outside of the water had to cause it. Like our world, our universe, it didn't create itself. Something outside of it had to create it. People seem to want to lock the cause of our universe inside of our universe. I believe that God created time and space and for Him to create this universe of cause, He had to be outside of it. You won’t find the inventor of the engine inside the engine. You have to look outside of it to find him. And since God is outside of our world of cause, He doesn’t need a cause.
I believe that we have an absolute morality in this world and that it comes from God. There are Atheists and Moral Relativists that preach that there is no absolute moral, and yet they also say that murders of certain people are wrong (which I agree). But if there is no moral center, why are Moral Relativists trying to tell me that a murder is wrong? Slavery is bigger today than ever and most of it is in the sex trade. Christians, Catholics, Atheists, and Moral Relativists alike would say that it is wrong. If there is no God, and no absolute morality, isn’t it reasonable to say that they can’t do what they want to do? I don’t know much about the early tribes, but I do know that God existed before them and therefore His absolute moral existed before them. I also believe that God created everything on this Earth, so he also rules over dogs.
It's not like you're risking anything by believing in God.
Belief in God is reasonable. Disbelieving Him is the unreasonable thing. It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God. It's a blind leap to disbelieve in Him, because you have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral. Belief in God is reasonable.
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