Do you want to kill people legally?

[Kennedy 0]

How do you go from seeing an imaginary gun to calling for termination of employment and criminal prosecution of an officer who has been cleared by investigators and the prosecutor in just two posts?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Pretending, for a moment, that the victim's actions were understandable if not advisable, do you feel there are any lessons to be learned on the side of the LEOs?

There are a number of possibilities. First, when organizing a raid, it's nice to include an officer carrying a taser. It's not a good idea to mix pistol and taser in each hand, but attaching a taser to the underside of a long gun is reasonable. The problem with long guns is that they can be very difficult to maneuver through small rooms and doorways. The alternative is having an officer only carry a taser, and that means he is limited in responding to deadly threats. Everything about a dynamic entry is a balancing act. Another good idea is to try to detain a suspect outside the search area prior to making entry. Try tried that here. They didn't get their guy. (it sickens me that their taking extra precautions that didn't work is somehow being played into them not caring)

The other end is not using tactical units to make forced entry to serve these kinds of warrants. The trouble there is how often drug suspects are armed and willing to resist. A good friend of mine carries a big scar and nearly lost use of a hand because some tweaker (your addict, not a dealer) decided to stab and slash him rather than go to jail for paraphernalia. I'm not just talking guns. Drug addicts are particularly prone to grabbing whatever is at hand to attack people. You know, like maybe a golf club.

What else? Well they could have tried getting a look at where he was and what he was doing, but that opens the peeker to risk. It's also very expensive to use tools that distance the peeker from the peekee. They could have dropped a diversionary device (flashbang), but I don't think that would have accomplished much here.

The officer maybe could have waited a tenth if a second, but I'm not going to sit here and say he's wrong for not doing it. A tenth of a second is enough for a lot of bad things to happen. That's why units rely on speed, surprise, and overwhelming force. Staying ahead of them contributes to going home safe at the end of the day.

Quote

Obviously the officers didn't get into their cruisers/van that evening hoping to shoot a guy, and I don't envy either the second guessing of oneself or the rationalization required to avoid the second guessing of oneself that Sgt. Burnett has to go through.

It's not rationalization so much as preparing yourself for the fact that someday you may be called on to utilize deadly force to protect yourself or another person. Quality departments invest in training to do this, and take steps to assist their officers afterwards.

Quote

It goes without saying, though, that Blair has it worse. So other than suggesting that people not be defensive when their front door is kicked in, how else might the outcome of this raid been improved?

Blair did come off worse than the officers, but I refuse to accept that it would've been better if the officers came out worse than Blair. Do I wish he could have come through without injuries and the officers all go home safe? Absolutely. But that's not always going to happen. When it doesn't, I'd rather the officers be the ones that go home safe.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[doughboyshred 0]

Quote

Quote

In no way to I despise LEOs. I am extremely opposed to the situation that has been created with the drug war,

Now why would anyone think you despised law enforcement?

Oh yeah:

Quote

Do you want to kill people legally?
Well then you should become a cop.

So cops are basically barbarians running legal looting raids to steal people's property.

Legal executions raids being run by cops

where innocent people and petty drug users are regularly murdered by cops.

Comments like that might have something to do with it.

Where in the fuck did I say that?

Let me save you the trouble. I didn't.

[normiss 622]

Those golf clubs used by a half asleep person can do sooo much damage to riot gear.
Might chip it.

[Kennedy 0]

Nope, wasn't you. Sorry, mixed you up with the OP. My bad.

Thinking about your posts though, I have to ask: when is the last time you found yourself on the pro law enforcement side of a disagreement?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Those golf clubs used by a half asleep person can do sooo much damage to riot gear.
Might chip it.

You do know there's a big difference between ballistic protection and riot gear, right?

So tell me, if I gave you a hand-me-down helmet and a Kevlar vest, and told you I was going to take a swing at you with a golf club, do you think you could reasonably assume that I might cause you serious injury or death?

And you keep saying half asleep. If the guy was asleep, how the hell did he get the golf club and get to the corner in the few seconds from them hitting the door to getting five feet in?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[normiss 622]

I'd take the golf club over a bullet any day.
Especially with 20 heavily armed friends behind while wearing ballistic protection gear. More so with a person holding it thinking he needs to defend his home.
You did notice how small the house is didn't you?
If I had a druggie roommate that I wanted out and was trying to clean up, I'd probably have a baseball bat handy.

[doughboyshred 0]

Quote

Nope, wasn't you. Sorry, mixed you up with the OP. My bad.

Thinking about your posts though, I have to ask: when is the last time you found yourself on the pro law enforcement side of a disagreement?

Personally, or on the interwebz?

On the interwebz, regularly. I try and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, about 3 years ago, when an ex employee and his roommate assaulted me. The cops handled it great. Actually, they were too reserved imo. When the old employee swung a bat at the dog I thought they should have capped his sorry ass. Instead they just ripped the plugs out of his ears.

Hell, he actually assaulted an officer and they didn't so much as taser him. They just used good old fashioned ass kicking.

There was no need to kill this guy. The problem is that with the drug war there is a sentiment that drug users are lesser people, and if they die, oh well.

[stitch 0]

Quote

Given the additional details in the 'non rag' sources you provided, I stand by my initial comments.
He was a poor loser with a drug addiction.
Murdering him was not necessary - even the cops say he wasn't advancing.
It also sounds like no drugs were found.
Our 'war on drugs' is still a waste of time, resources, money, and lives.
Sad story really.

No not really. This was in Utah not Florida. For instance every time you enter a bar in Utah they run your license through a card reader. So the state can monitor how often you fequent bars and how often you go to the same ones. So in Utah guilt by association is 99% of the law. In other words if you don't want to live in a place where the goverment has most of the power don't move to Utah.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[champu 1]

Thanks for the well thought out post. It can be rough sometimes when people don't appreciate that just maybe they're talking to people that the topic is fairly close to.

It's the couple tactical changes that you mention that I was getting at with my questions. All the way from tasers and better gear to protect against melee weapons to not breaching the premises in the first place, favoring an extended stakeout or something of that nature.

Quote

Blair did come off worse than the officers, but I refuse to accept that it would've been better if the officers came out worse than Blair. Do I wish he could have come through without injuries and the officers all go home safe? Absolutely. But that's not always going to happen. When it doesn't, I'd rather the officers be the ones that go home safe.

No argument there.

[VincePetaccio 0]

Quote

Quote

So you missed the part about the warrant was for a roommate.
Who the police knew had moved.
Is this guy guilty by association?
I know people that are currently holding weed, should I be served an aggressive take down warrant?

No, you missed the part where this was a search warrant, so it was for the residence. That fact that the investigation focused on one resdient more than another is irrelevant. If the guy had sat still and acted right, he would have held misdemeanor weed and paraphernalia charges at most. Instead he came out swinging a golf club.

I'm sorry, but this argument is crap. Was the residence itself under arrest?

The roommate, who left, was the one the police were after. There was absolutely no reason for them to be in this residence.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

Quote

So you missed the part about the warrant was for a roommate.
Who the police knew had moved.
Is this guy guilty by association?
I know people that are currently holding weed, should I be served an aggressive take down warrant?

No, you missed the part where this was a search warrant, so it was for the residence. That fact that the investigation focused on one resdient more than another is irrelevant. If the guy had sat still and acted right, he would have held misdemeanor weed and paraphernalia charges at most. Instead he came out swinging a golf club.

I'm sorry, but this argument is crap. Was the residence itself under arrest?

The roommate, who left, was the one the police were after. There was absolutely no reason for them to be in this residence.

Yes there was.. in our current police state the roomate was certainly in violation of guilt by association that is all important to the police state mind, and just another bit of collateral damage in the war on drugs.

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

No, you missed the part where this was a search warrant, so it was for the residence. That fact that the investigation focused on one resdient more than another is irrelevant. If the guy had sat still and acted right, he would have held misdemeanor weed and paraphernalia charges at most. Instead he came out swinging a golf club.

I'm sorry, but this argument is crap. Was the residence itself under arrest?

The roommate, who left, was the one the police were after. There was absolutely no reason for them to be in this residence.

Do you understand what a search warrant is? It is authorization (in some places a legal requirement) for officer to seize a location, person, or object and search it for evidence listed in the warrant. So yes, in your limited vocabulary, the house was 'under arrest' until it was searched. Try to understand: even if the roommate was the target if the investigation, the search warrant was for the house, so the officers searched the house.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[david3 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

No, you missed the part where this was a search warrant, so it was for the residence. That fact that the investigation focused on one resdient more than another is irrelevant. If the guy had sat still and acted right, he would have held misdemeanor weed and paraphernalia charges at most. Instead he came out swinging a golf club.

I'm sorry, but this argument is crap. Was the residence itself under arrest?

The roommate, who left, was the one the police were after. There was absolutely no reason for them to be in this residence.

Do you understand what a search warrant is? It is authorization (in some places a legal requirement) for officer to seize a location, person, or object and search it for evidence listed in the warrant. So yes, in your limited vocabulary, the house was 'under arrest' until it was searched. Try to understand: even if the roommate was the target if the investigation, the search warrant was for the house, so the officers searched the house.

And found a dead guy.

[Kennedy 0]

Nope. They made a dead guy. That's a completely different issue from whether or not they had a right to be there. The right to be there is far more clear, and understood by everyone except VinceP. The shooting is far more contentious issue, but it is supported by the department, external investigation, the local prosecutor, and I'd wager FBI review.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[normiss 622]

Those long range golf clubs can be sooo deadly.
They can stretch for like 20 feet and cause instant death on a heavily protected and armed force.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Those long range golf clubs can be sooo deadly.
They can stretch for like 20 feet and cause instant death on a heavily protected and armed force.

sorry but people have been killed and severly hurt by golf clubs and other weapons like them (just ask tigers teeth), this cop had every right to shoot before the criminal got close enough to harm him. the vifeo show him less than 20 feet away and the distance was closing.

[david3 0]

Quote

Quote

Those long range golf clubs can be sooo deadly.
They can stretch for like 20 feet and cause instant death on a heavily protected and armed force.

sorry but people have been killed and severly hurt by golf clubs and other weapons like them (just ask tigers teeth), this cop had every right to shoot before the criminal got close enough to harm him. the vifeo show him less than 20 feet away and the distance was closing.

Bullshit.

[PiLFy 0]

This was a bad shoot, plain & simple. The resident w/the club was clearly not advancing. I've read the excuses posted here by some. I've watched those excuses get tweaked when examined more closely. Show me a cop who treats John Q Public exactly the same regardless of where he lives, & I'll show you a liar. In low-income areas, especially where drug activity is prevalent. Police act on a different set of rules. They often have to for survival. That doesn't give them the right to do this. The DA cleared the shooter to try & help stave off a lawsuit? What a surprise. I hear Israel cleared themselves in that boat raid, too...

Let me tell you a story about a guy I used to know. He was working his way through college many years ago. He didn't have a lot of money, & sought cheap housing where he could. He had started sharing a house w/some people he didn't really know. He almost immediately realized his mistake, & started to get out of there. One night, when only he was home. There was suddenly very heavy pounding on the front door. It was about 1:30AM. My friend jumped out of bed to investigate w/a 12guage in his hands. They were yelling that they were the police. My friend managed to peek out a side window, & verified that. He put the gun down, & invited them inside. He showed them the gun lying there. Once my friend explained his side of things. One of the cops was cool about it. He acknowledged my friend's right to self defense under unknown circumstances. The other cop was a dick. The police saw the other people weren't there that night, & left. Now, had they forced the door open, & came running in, instead? Rounds could easily have been exchanged in the confusion. They were only wearing light, undershirt body armor. They would've been fully exposed coming through the door. My friend had "00" buck in a 12G, & was behind cover. How do you think that would have ended? If you participate in these raids? You trample on the Constitution @your own peril. People love to Monday morning quarterback these incidents. Usually, the loudest critics are the ones w/zero personal experience. That being said. This guy (druggie, good guy living in a bad area, who knows?) reacted as 90% or more of us would. Were I a bad guy living in a bad area? I'd react w/a lot more than a golf club. That guy was twenty feet away, simply standing there. He was just realizing that it really was the police when they shot him. My guess, is this vid will be used in academies to teach how to defuse a near-shooting situation. Instead of "FREEZE!"_bang, bang, bang. They'll be taught (oh wait, they already are) to order the suspect to drop his weapon. He was never given that chance. Chuck Norris isn't going to kill you from 20' w/a golf club. They were in no imminent danger. Hopefully, a decent lawyer is going to get ahold of this case. The only thing bad police seem to understand, is being hit w/a multi-million dollar settlement. I've a number of friends who are police officers. They'll sometimes joke about serving a no-knock warrant (You fire through the closed door). My friends are only joking, though. Bad cops aren't joking. I worry about my friends when something like this happens. They may be the ones who pay for another's misconduct.

[VincePetaccio 0]

Quote

Do you understand what a search warrant is? It is authorization (in some places a legal requirement) for officer to seize a location, person, or object and search it for evidence listed in the warrant. So yes, in your limited vocabulary, the house was 'under arrest' until it was searched. Try to understand: even if the roommate was the target if the investigation, the search warrant was for the house, so the officers searched the house.

This is dangerous thinking. Just because it's the law, doesn't make it right. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Let's actually try to think about this for a second (and not just quote the law):

WHY was the residence being searched? Because of the activities of the roommate (who was gone). What good could have come from searching the house?

I understand that there was a legal "right" (allegedly) to search the house. However, my issue is with that fact. So, go ahead and quote the law all you want, but you're just showing your blind, sheep-like support for a legal system that- apparently- has blatant disregard for the privacy and safety of those it's sworn to protect.

And after watching the video, I'm disgusted by this situation. To my eyes, this was cold-blooded murder on the part of the police officer who pulled the trigger.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[rhaig 0]

Quote

This is dangerous thinking. Just because it's the law, doesn't make it right. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I look forward to seeing you in your campaign to change these laws then.

Quote

Let's actually try to think about this for a second (and not just quote the law):

it's currently the law, and as such should be obeyed. If you don't agree with it, there is a legal process to get it changed (or don't you like those laws either??)

Quote

WHY was the residence being searched? Because of the activities of the roommate (who was gone). What good could have come from searching the house?

he wasn't there. They could have found what they suspected he possessed and tied it to him through the search of his residence.

Quote

I understand that there was a legal "right" (allegedly) to search the house. However, my issue is with that fact. So, go ahead and quote the law all you want, but you're just showing your blind, sheep-like support for a legal system that- apparently- has blatant disregard for the privacy and safety of those it's sworn to protect.

the system requires that a judge agree with the request to issue a warrant. If you don't think that is protective enough of individual rights, what would you suggest as an alternative?

--
Rob

• Quote

[normiss 622]

"he wasn't there. They could have found what they suspected he possessed and tied it to him through the search of his residence. "

Impossible. First year law student would beat any attempt at that.
He had moved out, this was known by the cops too. So it wasn't his residence.
Common area would be the only remaining area.
This was a bull shit warrant and a bad shooting.
Getting a warrant is easy.

[rhaig 0]

Quote

"he wasn't there. They could have found what they suspected he possessed and tied it to him through the search of his residence. "

Impossible. First year law student would beat any attempt at that.
He had moved out, this was known by the cops too. So it wasn't his residence.
Common area would be the only remaining area.
This was a bull shit warrant and a bad shooting.
Getting a warrant is easy.

then you'll be joining the crusade the change the search warrant laws across the country?

--
Rob

[Kennedy 0]

You really don't have the slightest idea how our legal system works, do you? (rhetorical question, youv already shown you don't)

You sound just like the ignorant people in videos from the side of he road screaming about how they know their rights when they don't know their asshole from their elbow.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[david3 0]

Quote

You really don't have the slightest idea how our legal system works, do you? (rhetorical question, youv already shown you don't)

You sound just like the ignorant people in videos from the side of he road screaming about how they know their rights when they don't know their asshole from their elbow.

Okay they had a legal (although maybe not a logical) right to be there. They have a responsibility to execute that warrant without killing an innocent. The resident in his own home should not have been shot. He reacted no differently I suspect than you would have if someone came crashing through your door. The video does not show him advancing on the police (at least not the video that started this thread). He is holding a golf club, not charging the intruders. The fact that the shooting “is supported by the department, external investigation, the local prosecutor” to me is like reviewing a call on the field in the NFL. There was not enough evidence to overturn it. Doesn’t mean it was the correct call. A search warrant is not a license to kill. A mistake was made and it cost someone their life.