Do the "rich" really PAY this much?

[wildcard451 0]

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Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

Bull.
Shit.

Unless it is "old money", those millionaires didn't get there by saying "oh, you want some more of my money? Here ya go, have a nice day...". Most got there by hard work and perseverance. Sure, factor in some luck, a good idea, right place/time etc, but I am sure when you look at it they have more work ethic in their pinky than most do overall. They've worked for it, they have earned it, and be damned if just because they worked harder to get it and enjoy a better life should they have to give to those less fortunate.

They may feel the desire to be charitable due to a better position in life, but being required to do so? Laughable.

Life isn't fair. While all men are created equal, it doesn't stay that way for long. Everyone doesn't get a trophy just for playing.

/ugh.

[ManagingPrime 0]

"For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required."

Don't think the argument that the rich should pay more is a new one...and I don't think the argument is going to die anytime soon.

[Southern_Man 0]

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I always dislike the numbers posted in the O.P.'s statement because I think that it is misleading not to include payroll taxes for purposes of discussion. Those are real taxes as well.

Which payroll taxes are you referring to?

The Social Security Tax (FICA) is seperate from the Income tax. Above a certain income, it doesn't get taken. In theory, SS is a seperate entity from Income Tax.

The withholding for "Income Tax" (shows as "State" and "Federal" on my pay statements) is the Income Tax. The paperwork you file in April is the "return", figuring out the difference between what you had withheld from your paycheck and what you actually owe.

I think it is much more accurate to compare total tax burden. Not just percentage of income tax. So, yes, the FICA tax + the Income tax. Since FICA isn't taken above a certain income, those above that income pay less, sometimes much less, in FICA. The result is that after taking FICA into account the "richs" share doesn't appear quite so disproportionate as it does in the numbers quoted above.

Of course that can also be done to account for exise tax, gas tax, state taxes, etc. These are a little harder to account for accurately and a bit more of estimates.

I am generally for lower taxes overall (coupled with much, much less spending) but I think having a more accurate picture of the total tax burden is better. Limiting it to just income tax gives a skewed perspective.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Darius11 12]

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As for "luck" I guess we can assume that everyone - or the majority - of anyone that made it were just lucky.

Standard of living has increased for everyone.

However there would be no rich without the middle class or even the poor. There needs to be a populace that can afford to spend money.

Where would bill gates be if PC were still 10000 bucks and only a few people could afford it?


I think its crazy to point at the increases in the standards of living as if some how we owe that to the rich.

Most great ideas are done by groups of people every one does a part, specially when most of the increases in the standard of living have been because of technology. Whether your speaking of the decrease in the price of food (thx to genetic engineering) or that every one can have a cell phone now.

I think the base of the issue is in philosophy. I believe luck is a huge part of someone’s successes. It is not just hard work, its not just right decisions. Some people specially ones who have been able to make a good life like to think its all them. It feeds the ego and some people love to think there special because there mommy told them so. The reality is luck, who you run in too, and who you know play a huge part.
Now the immediate reaction from people is to mention extremes please don’t it’s a waist of time. I am not focusing on the few exception that might exists. I agree hard work, smart decision making is an essential part however there is no guarantees, and luck that intangibles whatever you want to call them play a huge part. I think it’s a cop out to respond as all it takes is luck, I don’t think were saying that however I think its extremely narcissistic to assume it was all just you. It might be self-gratifying but it is untrue.

Luck plays a huge part in our lives from start from the day THAT sperm hits THAT egg.



As for a solution. We need to cut spending first, agreed. I would start with the defence budget.

However I am not for a flat tax rate.

Some one working and making 30-40 K a year is going to need every penny to have a basic standard of life (whatever that is at that time for the US), someone making 40 billion is not in the same financial situation.

The system would not work for anyone if we kill the middle class. Also a country needs a lot of people doing different things. We cant all be millionaire CEOs.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Life isn't fair. While all men are created equal,

The issue is your first statement is right. Life is not fair.

Then you say all men are created equal. Sounds great but that’s contradiction to what you just said. If every one was created equal as in the same. They can take the same paths as every one else then life would be fair. Thats not the case.

The reality is its not fair and we do not all get the same opportunities, or are given the same chance. regurdless of who we are, and what we do.


To quote a song

"Where it ends usually depends on where you start."


As for the old money. Lot of the old money was made by extremely shady ways. Stealing land, breaking laws, Salivary. Yea its not all clean as you would like to believe.

The whole I got mine I am so awesome and everyone else who didn't must just suck mentality is such an ego trip. Its also such an American cultural trait to deny luck has anything to do with anything. Cracks me up

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[mnealtx 0]

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I am generally for lower taxes overall (coupled with much, much less spending) but I think having a more accurate picture of the total tax burden is better. Limiting it to just income tax gives a skewed perspective.

Disagree - SS (to the best of my knowledge) doesn't provided detailed stats on SS tax payments like the IRS does for income tax.

Secondly, EVERYONE pays SS tax on income and it caps out at 106k.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dj123 0]

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[The withholding for "Income Tax" (shows as "State" and "Federal" on my pay statements) is the Income Tax.

No , it is a withholding because they don't trust you to pay later if it is ever in your hands. The withholding is not as you declare,"the Income Tax".

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The paperwork you file in April is the "return", figuring out the difference between what you had withheld from your paycheck and what you actually owe.

Again you are wrong.
The paperwork filed in April is the document which establishes how much tax you owe from your previous years earnings.

Here is an exercise I don't think you can complete ,wolfriverjoe.

Can you show me the portion of the US law which specifically makes you liable to pay income tax?

Peace and understanding to you,
DJ

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[wildcard451 0]

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Life isn't fair. While all men are created equal,

The issue is your first statement is right. Life is not fair.

Then you say all men are created equal. Sounds great but that’s contradiction to what you just said. If every one was created equal as in the same. They can take the same paths as every one else then life would be fair. Thats not the case.

The reality is its not fair and we do not all get the same opportunities, or are given the same chance. regurdless of who we are, and what we do.


To quote a song

"Where it ends usually depends on where you start."


As for the old money. Lot of the old money was made by extremely shady ways. Stealing land, breaking laws, Salivary. Yea its not all clean as you would like to believe.

The whole I got mine I am so awesome and everyone else who didn't must just suck mentality is such an ego trip. Its also such an American cultural trait to deny luck has anything to do with anything. Cracks me up

All I have figured out from your post is that you like to hear yourself talk, and that you stopped my quote to spend the rest of your post rehashing what I said in a few words.
If you finish my quote, I said that we are created equal and that is where it stops. I never said that we all got the same chances. Hence, Life isn't fair.

As to not factoring in luck - read what I said again, and pay attention this time, where I openly admit that can be a major factor..

Did you actually have an original thought in there?

[billvon 2,478]

>So.... being poor now sucks less than it did 100 years ago. Now that IS
>progress!

I think it is. Less people die of starvation or hypothermia. More people get treatment for disease. Would you prefer that none of that happened?

[billvon 2,478]

>Really, lets all wait until you decide to get off your hands and earn
>your first 2 million. Then we will come and take 50% of it from you and get
>your reaction.

I'd rather not pay taxes - but I also don't mind doing my part to support the country that gave me the chance to make all that money. (Yes, I pay around 50% of what I make in taxes.)

Want to support the military? The primary way that you will do that is by paying taxes. Why would you begrudge them that money?

[rehmwa 2]

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Did you actually have an original thought in there?

I thought "Salivary" was pretty unique

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think the base of the issue is in philosophy. I believe luck is a huge part of someone’s successes. It is not just hard work, its not just right decisions. Some people specially ones who have been able to make a good life like to think its all them. It feeds the ego and some people love to think there special because there mommy told them so. The reality is luck, who you run in too, and who you know play a huge part.
Now the immediate reaction from people is to mention extremes please don’t it’s a waist of time. I am not focusing on the few exception that might exists. I agree hard work, smart decision making is an essential part however there is no guarantees, and luck that intangibles whatever you want to call them play a huge part. I think it’s a cop out to respond as all it takes is luck, I don’t think were saying that however I think its extremely narcissistic to assume it was all just you. It might be self-gratifying but it is untrue.

the most obvious examples can be found with google employees (a few years ago) and facebook employees now. They typically believe that they are hot shit and the reason the company and they are thriving.

but....my main answer to your thesis is that winners make their luck through effort and preparation. And losers do not. And finally, the greater majority fit into the category they deserve.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am generally for lower taxes overall (coupled with much, much less spending) but I think having a more accurate picture of the total tax burden is better. Limiting it to just income tax gives a skewed perspective.

Disagree - SS (to the best of my knowledge) doesn't provided detailed stats on SS tax payments like the IRS does for income tax.

Secondly, EVERYONE pays SS tax on income and it caps out at 106k.

I thought he was referring to the employer share when he meant payroll taxes, but apparently not.

I also do not see the reason to include FICA. At this point in time, we contribute to SS and MC as we would for any retirement plan. What you contribute more or less translates to what you get back. Currently, there is a bit of an upward bias for the lower incomes and a downward bias for the higher incomes, but it's basically a forced contribution to a crappy 401k program. It's not justifiable to treat it like an income tax and say that rich aren't paying their portion.

Now if you want to declare SS is just a portion of the general budget and should give benefits based on need, then yes, you can combine them together. But we're not there yet.

[rehmwa 2]

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Now if you want to declare SS is just a portion of the general budget and should give benefits based on need, then yes, you can combine them together. But we're not there yet.

thankfully - but it's close though, and that will ensure its destruction

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

Of course, and I understand that paying taxes is necessary. Don't you have a problem with being told that you should pay more, Bill? How about the thought that you merely lucked into what you have - how many people out there are handed a degree from MIT? How many people are lucky enough to hold multiple patents? Is it fair that I have no patents when you have many?

Bill - you are being told that you are NOT doing your part. We also know you aren't doing your part because there is a massive deficit that, I understand, would not have happened had you and people like you done your part and paid more in taxes.

I don't think you're the bad guy, Bill. I am most certainly not in the top 10% of earners but I sure hope to be. Let's say you get hit with an additional 5% in income taxes. Do your expenses stay the same? Yep. Only you've got less to work with now. Maybe you cannot afford to put as much into retirement now. Maybe you have none to put into savings. Hey, you've still got a house payment, insurance payments, etc. Now you've got less per year to do that with and you're one of the 2% of people who are being told to pay more because you have more than enough.

The issue, as I see it, is that when it is framed that you are not or anyone else is not paying enough in taxes, it begs the question "enough for what?" And therein lies the debate.

Why does the government need more money? Because it is spending more than it is bringing in (aka "spending too much.") Perhaps something should be done about the other side of the equation.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,478]

>How about the thought that you merely lucked into what you have

I think it's part luck, part hard work, part upbringing. You can do well with any one of those, but for most people, I think it takes a combination of all three.

>Now you've got less per year to do that with and you're one of the 2% of
>people who are being told to pay more because you have more than
>enough.

Right.

But we do have to pay what we owe as a country. And if we have to increase taxes to do so, it makes a lot more sense to increase them 2% on me than 10% on someone making $20,000 a year. For one thing I can better afford it, and for another, more practical reason, the government will get more money out of that 2%.

>Perhaps something should be done about the other side of the equation.

Something has to be done about BOTH sides of the equation. Anyone who cannot see both sides shouldn't be in a position of power in government.

[mirage62 0]

+1

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[likearock 1]

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Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

With an attitude like that, you will probably never be a millionaire or if you become one you won't be for long.

Tell that to Warren Buffett. He has that attitude in spades.

[mnealtx 0]

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Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

With an attitude like that, you will probably never be a millionaire or if you become one you won't be for long.

Tell that to Warren Buffett. He has that attitude in spades.

How do you figure that? Buffett has his money in tax exempt/deferred shelters and has accountants to make sure he takes the least tax bite possible. Let's see him put his money where his mouth is and take it as income instead of capital gains, without any sheltering - he can start by cutting a check to these folks:

Gifts to the United States
U.S. Department of the Treasury
Credit Accounting Branch
3700 East-West Highway, Room 622D
Hyattsville, MD 20782

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[likearock 1]

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Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

With an attitude like that, you will probably never be a millionaire or if you become one you won't be for long.

Tell that to Warren Buffett. He has that attitude in spades.

How do you figure that? Buffett has his money in tax exempt/deferred shelters and has accountants to make sure he takes the least tax bite possible. Let's see him put his money where his mouth is and take it as income instead of capital gains, without any sheltering - he can start by cutting a check to these folks:

Gifts to the United States
U.S. Department of the Treasury
Credit Accounting Branch
3700 East-West Highway, Room 622D
Hyattsville, MD 20782

Dude, he has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth to charities. How much more do you want from the guy?

More to the point, he has consistently said that the rich should be taxed more as he does here.

Bill Gates has also pledged to give away 50% of his wealth. Generosity and a willingness to "give back" is not necessarily a detriment to acquiring wealth yourself.

[mnealtx 0]

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Dude, he has pledged to give away 99% of his wealth to charities. How much more do you want from the guy?

Charity != tax, taxes being the point of the thread.

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More to the point, he has consistently said that the rich should be taxed more as he does here.

So, let him put his money where his mouth is. Claim it as income, no tax sheltering, and pay the full tax on it - or write a check to the addy I gave above.

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Bill Gates has also pledged to give away 50% of his wealth. Generosity and a willingness to "give back" is not necessarily a detriment to acquiring wealth yourself.

Again, charity!= taxes

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Muffie 0]

>I think it's part luck, part hard work, part upbringing. You can do well with any one of those, but for most people, I think it takes a combination of all three.

I agree with Bill. I'm very fortunate to be where I am, but it's because my father raised me to work my ass off and I've done so for the last fifteen years to get to where I am. I was also lucky to be given the opportunities I was and to have people in my life who helped move me forward rather than holding me back.

And I'm fine with paying more in taxes because when I was younger my dad was disabled and we benefited from the safety net that exists in this country when things go wrong.

Having said that, I think someone who somehow feels entitled to be supported by others because those others have somehow "lucked" into success and they just can't get a break is full of it. Atlas Shrugged is a long, but good read of what can happen when that idea is taken to its extreme.

And as for the idea that the poor in this country are better off than a 100 years ago. Absolutely. The poverty line in the U.S. is relative and based on the CPI so people are still below the poverty line and always will be, but the number of people in that category with shoes, roofs over their heads, running water, and food to eat is higher than it used to be. Problem is that it probably feels a lot worse to be poor these days because it's so easy to compare yourself to everyone else.

[likearock 1]

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More to the point, he has consistently said that the rich should be taxed more as he does here.

So, let him put his money where his mouth is. Claim it as income, no tax sheltering, and pay the full tax on it

And you have some personal knowledge of his misuse of tax shelters? Pray show it.

This is all besides the point, which was that a willingness to see the tax rates go up for the rich does not necessarily prevent one from acquiring wealth. Any chance of your sticking to that topic?

[mnealtx 0]

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More to the point, he has consistently said that the rich should be taxed more as he does here.

So, let him put his money where his mouth is. Claim it as income, no tax sheltering, and pay the full tax on it

And you have some personal knowledge of his misuse of tax shelters? Pray show it.

Don't recall saying that he's misused tax shelters - care to show me where I did?

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This is all besides the point, which was that a willingness to see the tax rates go up for the rich does not necessarily prevent one from acquiring wealth. Any chance of your sticking to that topic?

Were you planning on ADDRESSING that topic at some point, rather than the charitable contributions?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[likearock 1]

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This is all besides the point, which was that a willingness to see the tax rates go up for the rich does not necessarily prevent one from acquiring wealth. Any chance of your sticking to that topic?

Were you planning on ADDRESSING that topic at some point, rather than the charitable contributions?

I thought I did, but I'll do it again so there's no mistaking:

Warren Buffett support raising the tax rates on the rich.
Warren Buffett is a multi-billionaire.
Therefore, supporting tax rates on the rich is not an impediment to acquiring wealth.