Bolas 5 #76 November 29, 2010 Quote Quote Where did I say I believed that it was the cure for all human depravity? It's not fun when people put words in your mouth, is it? I didn't put words in your mouth. I even quoted what I was referencing. Quote Quote “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” -Steven Weinberg Wrong...there are no good people. your idea of "good" is a delusion...you are in denial. While I'll agree it is not abitrary, the actions/inactions one makes and more importantly the reasoning for those decisions is what makes one bad or good. At birth we are simply neutral. Quote Quote Teaching people they're personally responsible for their own actions and inactions may help as well. no...religion has taught us that is not true. How has religion taught us this? Quote Quote Is their a guaranteed cure all other than ending the human race? Not likely. If someone claimed they had one, they better have evidence and be ready to defend their position with facts. How can you argue facts about human depravity when there is nothing in science that sugests we should have a conscience? Nothing in science? Psychology and psychiatry are not sciences?Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #77 November 29, 2010 QuoteWrong...there are no good people. your idea of "good" is a delusion...you are in denial. Rubbish. He's not even in Egypt. QuoteHow can you argue facts about human depravity when there is nothing in science that sugests we should have a conscience? Y'know dude... "nothing in science I've bothered to find out about" really, really isn't the same as "nothing in science", mm'kay?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #78 November 29, 2010 >How can you argue facts about human depravity when there is nothing in >science that sugests we should have a conscience? ?? There have been several studies that show the origins of what we call "conscience" i.e. the concept of fairness, the evolutionary drives for compassion, the drive to protect others from harm etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #79 November 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Teaching people they're personally responsible for their own actions and inactions may help as well. no...religion has taught us that is not true. How has religion taught us this? Some religions says to "do this and not do that" or go to hell. Many believe this with all their mind yet they "don't do this and do that." btw, I'm not a fan of religion...at least not in the sense of legalism. I believe in grace through fatih...it is more of a relationship. Quote Nothing in science? Psychology and psychiatry are not sciences? I think you'd have a better arguement if you picked a different branch of science.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #80 November 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteHow can you argue facts about human depravity when there is nothing in science that sugests we should have a conscience? Y'know dude... "nothing in science I've bothered to find out about" really, really isn't the same as "nothing in science", mm'kay? Regardless of what Darwin says, Conflict breeds creativity...not a conscience. But whatever...I guess everyone has their beliefs.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #81 November 29, 2010 Quote>How can you argue facts about human depravity when there is nothing in >science that sugests we should have a conscience? ?? There have been several studies that show the origins of what we call "conscience" i.e. the concept of fairness, the evolutionary drives for compassion, the drive to protect others from harm etc. But why should we have a conscience? All the other animals survive just fine without it...no need for fairness in survival...and they have displayed protective behavior and possibly even compassion though they have no concept of right or wrong. Is a conscience just nature's cruel joke?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #82 November 29, 2010 >But why should we have a conscience? All the other animals survive >just fine without it.. No, that's the point. Animals DO show signs of a conscience, so they're surviving with, not without it. Dolphins put their own lives in danger to save other species. Chimpanzees risk their safety to warn other monkeys of approaching dangers. Dogs show signs of guilt and remorse. A raven will fight off a second raven who is trying to steal the food of a third raven, even when the original raven gets no benefit from this action. Wild elephants will free captured animals by making raids at night. Conscience can be described as the ability to tell right from wrong, and this is expressed in practice by willingness to do "the right thing" even when it does not benefit the doer (or even puts the doer at risk.) If one's actions define one's morality, a case could be made that some animals have more of a conscience than humans do. >no need for fairness in survival... Turns out that there is indeed some societal benefit to fairness. >Is a conscience just nature's cruel joke? Nope. Turns out it's not a joke at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #83 November 29, 2010 QuoteRegardless of what Darwin says, Darwin was just the starting point - since then we've come a long way Baby. Biologists don't worship what's in that big old book as an immutable higher truth, that would be stupid. QuoteConflict breeds creativity...not a conscience. Well, as long as you're sure, no need to worry about what the actual research says, eh?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #84 November 29, 2010 QuoteAll the other animals survive just fine without it... no need for fairness in survival...and they have displayed protective behavior and possibly even compassion though they have no concept of right or wrong. How do you know?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #85 November 29, 2010 QuoteQuote>How can you argue facts about human depravity when there is nothing in >science that sugests we should have a conscience? ?? There have been several studies that show the origins of what we call "conscience" i.e. the concept of fairness, the evolutionary drives for compassion, the drive to protect others from harm etc. But why should we have a conscience? All the other animals survive just fine without it...no need for fairness in survival...and they have displayed protective behavior and possibly even compassion though they have no concept of right or wrong. Is a conscience just nature's cruel joke? Really??You've never watched a pack of lions/wolves/dogs/etc. Protect the young and weak? Not to mention every member of the Ape family, they protect the weak, young and old, adn rever the elders...I haven't seen any of them in church yet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #86 November 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Teaching people they're personally responsible for their own actions and inactions may help as well. no...religion has taught us that is not true. How has religion taught us this? Some religions says to "do this and not do that" or go to hell. Many believe this with all their mind yet they "don't do this and do that." btw, I'm not a fan of religion...at least not in the sense of legalism. I believe in grace through fatih...it is more of a relationship. Name one religion where people are empowered to think for themselves and take responsibility for their own actions/inactions. The majority make people feel like they are weak and helpless and only by blindly accepting what they say will they be "saved." So you aren't a fan of "corporate" religion, you're more of an independent contractor. Got it. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #87 November 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteAll the other animals survive just fine without it... no need for fairness in survival...and they have displayed protective behavior and possibly even compassion though they have no concept of right or wrong. How do you know? I used to run with a pack of wolves...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #88 November 29, 2010 QuoteReally??You've never watched a pack of lions/wolves/dogs/etc. Protect the young and weak? Yes... Quotethey have displayed protective behavior and possibly even compassion though they have no concept of right or wrong. I was trying to suggest that this behavior may not be dependant on a conscience.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #89 November 29, 2010 Quote Name one religion where people are empowered to think for themselves and take responsibility for their own actions/inactions.... Freelance Christianity.... Quote So you aren't a fan of "corporate" religion, you're more of an independent contractor. Got it. Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #90 November 29, 2010 >I was trying to suggest that this behavior may not be dependant on a >conscience. Well, you get into a sticky area of "what defines conscience" then. If it's defined by behavior, then people may not have one either. If it's just "a feeling you have" then other animals may well have the same feeling. If it's the ability to put it into words, then that's a test of sentience, not morality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #91 November 30, 2010 QuoteI was trying to suggest that this behavior may not be dependant on a conscience. No you weren't. You were stating it categorically. Where did you publish your research in the area?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #92 November 30, 2010 QuoteQuoteI was trying to suggest that this behavior may not be dependant on a conscience. No you weren't. You were stating it categorically. ok, ok jeeze... ...maybe in a billion years wild animal consciences will evole, then the platapusses will be able to thank God.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Throttlebender 0 #93 November 30, 2010 No use trying to convince a religious zealot of anything. It's a guarantee that he's sitting in front of his monitor with a smirk and a glazed look in his eyes. And when presented with questions that can't be dodged, the comeback is usually an attempt at condescending humor or a mantra of scripture. Enjoy your relationship with your story books.Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #94 November 30, 2010 >...maybe in a billion years wild animal consciences will evole . . . They're already here. >then the platapusses will be able to thank God. Perhaps. More likely the smarter ones will be studying morality in animals, while the more easily led platypi will be trying to get evolution banned in schools in the name of PlataGod. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Throttlebender 0 #95 November 30, 2010 "More easily led"........so trueLife expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #96 November 30, 2010 On the bright side, the weazels will be lefty and join the democrats. "According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #97 November 30, 2010 Quote No use trying to convince a religious zealot of anything. you must be new here... The fact is that I always like to hear from Jakee and Billvon...if I don't respond it generally means I liked what they had to say. Quote It's a guarantee that he's sitting in front of his monitor with a smirk and a glazed look in his eyes. Wow...you're good...I knew I should've disabled that damn toshiba face recognition software. Quote And when presented with questions that can't be dodged, the comeback is usually an attempt at condescending humor Nice suit slick...watcha drinking, some Woodstone? Quote Enjoy your relationship with your story books. You too...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #98 November 30, 2010 Quote>...maybe in a billion years wild animal consciences will evole . . . They're already here. >then the platapusses will be able to thank God. Perhaps. More likely the smarter ones will be studying morality in animals, while the more easily led platypi will be trying to get evolution banned in schools in the name of PlataGod. Jeeze billvon, I thought you woulda liked my hideous platapusses joke... didn't mean for it to strike a nerve with some people here.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #99 November 30, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI was trying to suggest that this behavior may not be dependant on a conscience. No you weren't. You were stating it categorically. ok, ok jeeze... ...maybe in a billion years wild animal consciences will evole, then the platapusses will be able to thank God. WOW....you think that lowly of your God?? that animals are souless, no more than a rock? Unable to feel, to love, to care? WOW.....Just WOW If that is how God's love works, I don't want anything to do with it, or for anyone I love to fall into that thinking! WOW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #100 November 30, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI was trying to suggest that this behavior may not be dependant on a conscience. No you weren't. You were stating it categorically. ok, ok jeeze... ...maybe in a billion years wild animal consciences will evole, then the platapusses will be able to thank God. WOW....you think that lowly of your God?? that animals are souless, no more than a rock? Unable to feel, to love, to care? WOW.....Just WOW If that is how God's love works, I don't want anything to do with it, or for anyone I love to fall into that thinking! WOW It's the arrogance of man .... well some men (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
