Tired of TSA's Expanding Power?

[billvon 2,435]

>I mean seriously the most probable terrorist attach is going to be a
>young male Muslim.

And this attitude is why the Israeli system won't work here. People will allow the suspicious guy from Chechnya to get on the plane while detaining the average Arab - because they think "the most probable terrorist is going to be a young male Muslim."

[rehmwa 2]

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That's the kind of conversation and judgment that's lacking in our security procedures today.

I suspect there are people in the biz with perfectly good judgment.

It's more likely that the procedures disallow that level of judgment and they are handcuffed by (call it whatever you like - fairness, PC thuggery, changing rules, litigation paranoia, ......etc ad nauseum).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NWFlyer 2]

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That's the kind of conversation and judgment that's lacking in our security procedures today.

I suspect there are people in the biz with perfectly good judgment.

It's more likely that the procedures disallow that level of judgment and they are handcuffed by (call it whatever you like - fairness, PC thuggery, changing rules, litigation paranoia, ......etc ad nauseum).

Yep, I agree. I travel an awful lot and have had occasion to interact with a lot of TSA agents at a lot of different (primarily U.S.) airports. Most of them are not jack-booted thugs on a power trip. Most of them are not brain-dead idiots. They're people trying to a job that is defined and managed through heavy-handed micromanaging of procedure rather than through training, growth, and empowerment. I've seen the same thing in private industry, but government agencies seem to have a special ability to create automatons.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Andy9o8 0]

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>I mean seriously the most probable terrorist attach is going to be a
>young male Muslim.

And this attitude is why the Israeli system won't work here. People will allow the suspicious guy from Chechnya to get on the plane while detaining the average Arab - because they think "the most probable terrorist is going to be a young male Muslim."

Depends on how well they're trained and how competent they are. And good training is often about attitude adjustment. It's like an Oriental martial art; you don't have to be Asian to master it. Properly done, the Israeli system doesn't just work for the Israelis; it can work anywhere and be done by anyone.

[billvon 2,435]

>Properly done, the Israeli system doesn't just work for the Israelis; it
>can work anywhere and be done by anyone.

Agreed. But you may have to pay TSA agents a bit more than you pay them now - and train them a bit better as well.

[skyrider 0]

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>Properly done, the Israeli system doesn't just work for the Israelis; it
>can work anywhere and be done by anyone.

Agreed. But you may have to pay TSA agents a bit more than you pay them now - and train them a bit better as well.

According to that chart posted earlier, they are paid plenty!

[billvon 2,435]

>According to that chart posted earlier, they are paid plenty!

According to you it's "plenty." From a purely functional standpoint, "plenty" is the level of pay at which you get competent, trainable people who can think on their feet.

[nigel99 150]

I agree with you that it takes sensitivity and intelligence.

So far I have only had good experience travelling into the US despite carrying what could be classified by as suspicious goods. However I have found that being relaxed following the letter of the law and if in doubt asking for advice from them has worked well. My favourite was the chat at Fort Worth some years ago (after 9/11) and I had some pretty sophisticated prototype electronics with me. The guy and I started chatting and I mentioned that it was a prototype with military applications and he immediately let me through.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[BillyVance 34]

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They need to stop hiring people that failed the Police officer test , and couldn;t even get a job as a security gaurd....they are getting power hungry Nut cases!

Like the taser-wielding cop in "Meet The Fockers"?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[skyrider 0]

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>According to that chart posted earlier, they are paid plenty!

According to you it's "plenty." From a purely functional standpoint, "plenty" is the level of pay at which you get competent, trainable people who can think on their feet.

IF you needed "highly Trained" people yes, I'd agree...How many years of college/special training do these want-a be Cops have for their "highly skilled" position?

From what I find...a matter of days! (and pass a background check)

[NWFlyer 2]

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>According to that chart posted earlier, they are paid plenty!

According to you it's "plenty." From a purely functional standpoint, "plenty" is the level of pay at which you get competent, trainable people who can think on their feet.

IF you needed "highly Trained" people yes, I'd agree...How many years of college/special training do these want-a be Cops have for their "highly skilled" position?

From what I find...a matter of days! (and pass a background check)

Maybe so for the job they're doing today, which TSA management has turned into a procedurally-based, highly micromanaged, low-skill, low-thinking, low-empowerment job.

If we want better quality we're going to have to attract a different type of person and create a different type of job.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,435]

>How many years of college/special training do these want-a be Cops
>have for their "highly skilled" position? From what I find...a matter
>of days! (and pass a background check)

Agreed. Which is the problem. If we want a smarter, more effective, less intrusive TSA - we have to get better people than that. And that means paying them so that they will choose a job in the TSA over a high paying job in the private sector.

[skyrider 0]

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>How many years of college/special training do these want-a be Cops
>have for their "highly skilled" position? From what I find...a matter
>of days! (and pass a background check)

Agreed. Which is the problem. If we want a smarter, more effective, less intrusive TSA - we have to get better people than that. And that means paying them so that they will choose a job in the TSA over a high paying job in the private sector.

Why shoudl they be paid more than a police officer? Why arent they using police officers? they have the training, and could use the raise!

[idrankwhat 0]

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I'm about sick of this nonsense.

I am too. At first I wasn't sure how to fight it. Now I've decided the best plan is to embrace it. Next time I get asked for either full body screen or a "pat down", if there's not a really hot TSA agent, doing the latter then I'm simply going to drop trou and give 'em the full monty

Of course I'll be sure to give them the "it's a bit chilly in here" disclaimer.

[billvon 2,435]

>Why shoudl they be paid more than a police officer?

Because you have to pay for skill. To compare them to cops, you'd have to pay them more than what an experienced and competent cop makes to entice them to leave their jobs and take a job at the TSA.

>they have the training, and could use the raise!

Exactly. A cop with 10 years experience makes an average of 40-70K, call it 55K. Compare that to "G" pay level in the TSA (i.e. a "Transportation Security Inspector") which is $38-60K.

If you want experienced cops as TSA screeners, you're going to have to pay them more than that.

[rehmwa 2]

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If we want better quality we're going to have to attract a different type of person and create a different type of job.

and that's pretty much contingent upon a different leadership and different social environment and different litigation environment - right now, it's skewed towards acknowledgment of big brother

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NWFlyer 2]

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If we want better quality we're going to have to attract a different type of person and create a different type of job.

and that's pretty much contingent upon a different leadership and different social environment and different litigation environment - right now, it's skewed towards acknowledgment of big brother

And a different political environment, too.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kallend 1,649]

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>I mean seriously the most probable terrorist attach is going to be a
>young male Muslim.

And this attitude is why the Israeli system won't work here. People will allow the suspicious guy from Chechnya to get on the plane while detaining the average Arab - because they think "the most probable terrorist is going to be a young male Muslim."

Not so long ago it would have been "young male Irishman". I wonder how well that would have gone over in Chicago, Boston, or SFO?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

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>Why shoudl they be paid more than a police officer?

Because you have to pay for skill. To compare them to cops, you'd have to pay them more than what an experienced and competent cop makes to entice them to leave their jobs and take a job at the TSA.

>they have the training, and could use the raise!

Exactly. A cop with 10 years experience makes an average of 40-70K, call it 55K. Compare that to "G" pay level in the TSA (i.e. a "Transportation Security Inspector") which is $38-60K.

If you want experienced cops as TSA screeners, you're going to have to pay them more than that.

I used to work for US Customs, and while I was at Sea-Tac I learned a lot from the CIs (Customs Inspectors) on how to "read" people, to the point where I could zero in on those who were acting (not just looking) like something other than ordinary people just going about their business, where they were from, even the district of Seattle they probably lived in. The psychology of it was fascinating - there's a lot going on just on the surface and under it, if one knows what to look for.

These weren't TSA goons, doing this work, however. These were highly trained professional federal law enforcement, as in badge-and-gun, types - sworn officers, not just pukes who are one step above a fast-food job. I haven't spoken to any of my Customs buddies lately, but I think I'll ask them their opinion of the TSA types.

I'm assuming it's a pretty low one.

And billvon, when I said "profiling", I didn't mean "let's just be racist with the inspections", as you implied. By "profiling", I meant "trained how to 'read' people" as mentioned above.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[okalb 79]

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Depends on how well they're trained and how competent they are. And good training is often about attitude adjustment.

Attitude is a big part of the problem with the current crop of TSA agents. Maybe if they were treated better (trusted more and paid better) they wouldn't have the attitudes that they do, but I wouldn't count on it.

I will give you an example of my regular experience with TSA. I travel almost every week. One of my big complaints has always been the stupid 3.4 oz liquid limit for carry ons. The biggest problem I have with it comes down to toothpaste. I hate having to use the sample size ones but there aren't a lot of other options. In the US they sell these pear shaped plastic bottles of that are 4.6 oz so they are too big. A few years ago when I was in Canada I found that they sell bottles that look very similar but they are 100ml which is legal to carry on. I ended up buying a ton of them so that I can use them when I travel. At least every other trip or so I get a TSA agent that tells me that I can't bring my toothpaste on the plane because it is too big and I will have to throw it out. Each time I very nicely point out that it is of legal size. I almost immediately get an angry response saying something to the affect of "I do this every day and I know what I am doing, it is too big and you have to throw it out." I usually respond again nicely with something to the affect of "please take a look at the size on it, it is not the same as the ones you see every day" Usually they refuse to look at it and insist that I have to throw it out. I end up calling a supervisor over who when I explain the problem picks it up, looks at it and says "100ml, thats allowed, what's the problem"?

All of the training in the world isn't going to fix that. I also think that we have too many TSA agents running around the airports. If they replaced them with people that were actually able to do the job, they could probably get away with substantially fewer agents. Then they could pay more to the well trained agents in order to keep them.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[billvon 2,435]

>By "profiling", I meant "trained how to 'read' people" as mentioned above.

"Profiling" means "matching to a profile." Reading people is quite different; it does not depend on having knowledge of a profile beforehand.

However, both have their place. A simple example is a report that fans of a losing soccer team have been getting into fights. A hat with the name of the losing team might well be a sign that they 'fit the profile' of one of those fans.

The problem arises when people apply that concept to their least-favorite race, religion, sexual orientation etc in the (mistaken) thought that by stopping a group of people, they will ensure that they've stopped all the terrorists. As history has shown, that's not the case - and as posts here have shown, people often make that mistake.

[scruffy 0]

Even if you buy into the idea that all people who wish to do bad things on flights are Muslim, the problem is that Muslim does not equal Arab. Lets recall the panty bomber and his race for a moment.

Being more wary of people because of what they look like is ridiculous, what should be suggested is not scrutinizing people based off of arbitrary appearance cues, but behavioral ques that indicate bad intentions.

Peace, love and hoppiness

[SStewart 13]

I had also had a toothpaste incident a few weeks ago. I was flying from Salt lake to Seattle to take my son to a Seahawks game and the TSA pulled my boy over to the side to search his carry-on.
He found one of those small childrens bottles of tooth paste. My fault I guess, I honestly thought it would be OK since it was so small. The TSA guy said it was 1 ounce over the limit.

So we repacked his suitcase and put our shoes back on and proceeded to the terminal and my son wanted to know why that dork took his tooth paste.

I told him apparently the TSA thinks an 11 year old boy from Utah might try to take down an airliner with a small bottle of Spongebob Colgate gel.

Comical really, 3 ounces would be perfectly safe but 4? Oh no, we just can't take that risk. You know how dangerous that extra ounce of kids toothpaste might be.
Not only that but once you are through security you can go to the gift shop and replace it with the exact same substance. Absolutely absurd, if they can't tell the difference between something harmless and something truly dangerous then they are nothing more than a joke. The terrorists must be laughing at us.

Oh, and when we got to Seahawks stadium there was no pat-down of any kind. The guy simply asked me to open my raincoat and that was it. He didn't even look in my bag which had a camera, binoculars, hat, etc. I could of had anything in there. No metal detectors or anything. Pretty much the same at every NFL stadium I have been to.

Onward and Upward!

[nigel99 150]

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Even if you buy into the idea that all people who wish to do bad things on flights are Muslim, the problem is that Muslim does not equal Arab. Lets recall the panty bomber and his race for a moment.

Being more wary of people because of what they look like is ridiculous, what should be suggested is not scrutinizing people based off of arbitrary appearance cues, but behavioral ques that indicate bad intentions.

I am fully aware of that. I believe that at least 2 recent terrorist attempts have been converts to Islam and where not even Arab but black and possibly white.

I realise that people "misread" and I said Muslim not Arab in my original post. Realise that when we foreigners travel to the USA your government is given access to a shitload of personal data (including our full banking details). Religion is part of the information that is conveyed and I see no reason to not use this to assist in a sensible risk assessment.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Guest]

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>By "profiling", I meant "trained how to 'read' people" as mentioned above.

"Profiling" means "matching to a profile." Reading people is quite different; it does not depend on having knowledge of a profile beforehand.

However, both have their place. A simple example is a report that fans of a losing soccer team have been getting into fights. A hat with the name of the losing team might well be a sign that they 'fit the profile' of one of those fans.

The problem arises when people apply that concept to their least-favorite race, religion, sexual orientation etc in the (mistaken) thought that by stopping a group of people, they will ensure that they've stopped all the terrorists. As history has shown, that's not the case - and as posts here have shown, people often make that mistake.

Here we differ on the term.

When I wrote of profiling, I was thinking of the psychological kind, such as practiced by the FBI.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."