Whats up?

[nigel99 144]

I miss the old religious, evolution, gun debates that used to run with lots of different opinion and opposing viewpoints.

SC seems to have descended into a tit for tat insult forum. Even JR hasn't dug up dirt on England for a few months

Any idea's for a good debate?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[quade 3]

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Any idea's for a good debate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

"No, you want 12A next door."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nigel99 144]

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Any idea's for a good debate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

"No, you want 12A next door."

Lets go for the course of 10

Well if anyone is interested. I spent last week in a US hospital (for work) and I was amazed at the extravagance.The place had a baby grand piano that played itself, a lobby like a 5 star hotel and Starbucks, Subways downstairs. It also had a huge fountain indoors. It really made me think about why US healthcare costs are so high. Do you really think that hospitals should be "wasting" money on extravagances?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[quade 3]

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I spent last week in a US hospital (for work) and I was amazed at the extravagance.The place had a baby grand piano that played itself, a lobby like a 5 star hotel and Starbucks, Subways downstairs. It also had a huge fountain indoors. It really made me think about why US healthcare costs are so high. Do you really think that hospitals should be "wasting" money on extravagances?

Well I can't speak to the piano; I've never seen that in any hospital I've ever been in. YMMV. I have seen a few fountains outside of hospitals. A certain amount of decorative flourish isn't completely out of line. I've never seen any gold plated bed pans, but that may be an option for some of the extreme higher end ones that cater to optional things like liposuction or breast augmentations where money isn't really an issue anyway.

Starbucks and Subway are franchises though and to be honest fairly reasonable ones as far as comfort and reliability in knowing what you're getting as opposed to the mystery of hitting up a random institutional cafeteria. They are clearly paying their own way, making a profit and have nothing to do (directly) with healthcare costs. In fact, they -might- even be lowering it since they might not actually be part of the hospital and might be paying rent for the square footage.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nigel99 144]

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Well I can't speak to the piano; I've never seen that in any hospital I've ever been in. YMMV. I have seen a few fountains outside of hospitals. A certain amount of decorative flourish isn't completely out of line. I've never seen any gold plated bed pans, but that may be an option for some of the extreme higher end ones that cater to optional things like liposuction or breast augmentations where money isn't really an issue anyway.

Starbucks and Subway are franchises though and to be honest fairly reasonable ones as far as comfort and reliability in knowing what you're getting as opposed to the mystery of hitting up a random institutional cafeteria. They are clearly paying their own way, making a profit and have nothing to do (directly) with healthcare costs. In fact, they -might- even be lowering it since they might not actually be part of the hospital and might be paying rent for the square footage.

Interesting as we actually went into 2 hospitals and both had the piano. Coming from the UK and our NHS believe me these hospitals were a culture shock.
I never thought of the fact that Starbucks etc could be renting floor space - it makes sense.

On business I tend to stay at Hyatt or Marriott Courtyard hotels and both of these hospitals put them to shame for flourish and quality. I am fairly curious to see how typical they are, as much as I dislike hospitals.

So do you mind your healthcare costs paying for the frills or would you prefer lower premiums and less frills?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mnealtx 0]

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So do you mind your healthcare costs paying for the frills or would you prefer lower premiums and less frills?

You're making the assumption that healthcare revenue paid for them - the fancy bits I've seen around hospitals are usually donated or paid for by a memorial donation.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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Interesting as we actually went into 2 hospitals and both had the piano.

Let me assure you it's not normal.

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So do you mind your healthcare costs paying for the frills or would you prefer lower premiums and less frills?

There has to be a balance.

I don't think anybody wants to go to a hospital room which consists of simply beige painted concrete walls, floors and ceilings with a bare bulb for lighting. The moment you depart from that, you're making a decision based on certain aesthetics and costs.

I personally have always marveled at the "cheapness" of some furnishings in some buildings in their vain attempt to look upscale. At other times I've marveled at what appears to be an attempt to keep costs down, but you gotta know it's going to end up costing them more in the long run.

I tend to like the idea that form follows function when it comes to things I expect to be efficient and especially if my life is involved.

Yes, I could do with cutting back on certain hospital decor, but I really think that's not where the bulk of the money is going to begin with.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

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Any idea's for a good debate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

"No, you want 12A next door."

Thanks, I needed that after reading the other current "top ten" threads in SC.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rushmc 18]

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Any idea's for a good debate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

"No, you want 12A next door."

That was great
I watched that years ago and had forgotten it


Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[usedtajump 1]

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I spent last week in a US hospital (for work) and I was amazed at the extravagance.The place had a baby grand piano that played itself, a lobby like a 5 star hotel and Starbucks, Subways downstairs. It also had a huge fountain indoors. It really made me think about why US healthcare costs are so high. Do you really think that hospitals should be "wasting" money on extravagances?

Well I can't speak to the piano; I've never seen that in any hospital I've ever been in. YMMV. I have seen a few fountains outside of hospitals. A certain amount of decorative flourish isn't completely out of line. I've never seen any gold plated bed pans, but that may be an option for some of the extreme higher end ones that cater to optional things like liposuction or breast augmentations where money isn't really an issue anyway.

Starbucks and Subway are franchises though and to be honest fairly reasonable ones as far as comfort and reliability in knowing what you're getting as opposed to the mystery of hitting up a random institutional cafeteria. They are clearly paying their own way, making a profit and have nothing to do (directly) with healthcare costs. In fact, they -might- even be lowering it since they might not actually be part of the hospital and might be paying rent for the square footage.

The hospital where my brother in law's kid was born had all that and more. Dinner for the new mom and dad consisted of steak and lobster each night and the hospital itself was comparable to the finest resorts than can be found anywhere. In the lobby there was available at all times all the finest espresso coffee drinks you could guzzle down and pastries fit for a king all at no cost and all paid for, ultimately I guess, by his insurance company.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Well I can't speak to the piano; I've never seen that in any hospital I've ever been in. YMMV. I have seen a few fountains outside of hospitals. A certain amount of decorative flourish isn't completely out of line. I've never seen any gold plated bed pans, but that may be an option for some of the extreme higher end ones that cater to optional things like liposuction or breast augmentations where money isn't really an issue anyway.

Starbucks and Subway are franchises though and to be honest fairly reasonable ones as far as comfort and reliability in knowing what you're getting as opposed to the mystery of hitting up a random institutional cafeteria. They are clearly paying their own way, making a profit and have nothing to do (directly) with healthcare costs. In fact, they -might- even be lowering it since they might not actually be part of the hospital and might be paying rent for the square footage.

Interesting as we actually went into 2 hospitals and both had the piano. Coming from the UK and our NHS believe me these hospitals were a culture shock.
I never thought of the fact that Starbucks etc could be renting floor space - it makes sense.

On business I tend to stay at Hyatt or Marriott Courtyard hotels and both of these hospitals put them to shame for flourish and quality. I am fairly curious to see how typical they are, as much as I dislike hospitals.

So do you mind your healthcare costs paying for the frills or would you prefer lower premiums and less frills?

First, Mike (mnealtx) is right that those kinds of frills are often donated or paid for by a private benefactor (or a for-profit company that gets a plaque posted next to it: "Donated by Dewey Cheatem & Howe, LLC").

But it's also a factor that you, from a NHS country, don't consider: in the US, patients generally choose what hospital to go to, and thus, hospitals vigorously compete with each other to get patients to choose them for treatment. In the US you constantly hear/see (expensive!) radio and TV commercials where hospitals extol their virtues as the local go-to place for treatment of cancer, heart disease, etc.

So all those frills you see are not really for the patients. They're to make patients' families and friends comfortable while they're visiting, to make a good impression on them as potential future "customers", and to boost the visual prominence of the place, not only to attract patients, but also the better doctors who would rather practice at the "nicer" hospitals. (Thus letting the hospital advertise itself as having the better doctors, etc.) And just like with any other private company, the idea is that it's an investment which ultimately returns greater profits.

Go to a VA (Veteran's Administation) hospital sometime - probably the closest thing to a NHS-style hospital network the US currently has. You won't see many fountains, atriums and player pianos at most of those.

[rnicks 0]

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Well if anyone is interested. I spent last week in a US hospital (for work) and I was amazed at the extravagance.The place had a baby grand piano that played itself, a lobby like a 5 star hotel and Starbucks, Subways downstairs. It also had a huge fountain indoors. It really made me think about why US healthcare costs are so high. Do you really think that hospitals should be "wasting" money on extravagances?

Wow, I think you must have been at the hospital I work at! I work at a huge luxurious hospital in the suburbs. The public seems to think it is so great because of how nice and fancy it is. However, flat screens and granite counter tops don't mean shit when the nursing staff is below the minimum and you have to wait an hour for a Tylenol.

While our hospital does provide excellent and comprehensive medical care, the actual in patient stay sucks. In the last couple of years we have laid off more nurses than I care to think about. I would have been on the chopping block as well had I not changed positions a few years back. All of the secretaries were let go and NA's were cut back as well. So this means that nurses have had a huge increase in their daily responsibilities yet the pts expect to recieve the same care. Though mnealtx is right in some aspects of where the money comes from, the hospital seems to think that a fancy manicured lawn and rooms that resemble a hotel will wooo a pt and make them forget that their discharge has been held up by 4 hours because the nurse had to answer phones while doing cpr and listening to 7 call lights not being responded too.

Even though I know some of these fancy items are donated and others are generated through other areas of revenue, as an employee it is frustrating to see. Despite the increase in matrix and responsibilities we haven't received a raise in 3 years and our health care costs have raised quite a bit. (Everybody is facing this same problem) But then to see the fancy and frivolous items that are not necessary for pt care or safety is tiresome.

Another hospital I moonlight at closer to the city, is dirt poor, old and dingy, and always running low on supplies. However the nursing staff never work short and I feel their pts are taken care of better. (Not from a medical perspective but from a nursing standpoint.)

[TriGirl 268]

I would also say to check out a university hospital. My last surgery, I was thrilled to see that for my first night the room had a chair that converted into a rather comfortable single bed where my boyfriend could stay the night. I was pretty impressed with the place at that point, my only complaint being there being a problem with the TV control. The second night they moved me to another floor. Similar room, TV control worked, and the "chair" was a "loveseat" size, with more room to fold it out. However, the shower had a clump of hair on the floor, and there was rust on in the shower and on the toilet. I'd give the care about an 8 out of 10, and once I pointed out the cleanliness issues the nurses flipped out and wrote a report. I wouldn't say there were any frills -- although I had the same food for two meals straight, it was standard hospital food and was pretty good.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[rnicks 0]

Holy crap! You sound like a horror pt!!!! A little high maintenance??? None of your complaints sounds like it would have interfered with your care or safety.

[nigel99 144]

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But it's also a factor that you, from a NHS country, don't consider: in the US, patients generally choose what hospital to go to, and thus, hospitals vigorously compete with each other to get patients to choose them for treatment. In the US you constantly hear/see (expensive!) radio and TV commercials where hospitals extol their virtues as the local go-to place for treatment of cancer, heart disease, etc.

Interesting.

In the UK over the past 5 years there has been a alot of so called specialisation of NHS hospitals. I live in a town of about 150 000 and our hospital has had the A&E department closed and relocated ~20 miles away, same with maternity and a couple of other functions. I must live in a town full of arse holes because they have kept the renal unit . So now we are in a position where air ambulances are being used more (traffic over a 20 mile period can make this trip an hour long).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[rhys 0]

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I miss the old religious, evolution, gun debates that used to run with lots of different opinion and opposing viewpoints.

SC seems to have descended into a tit for tat insult forum.

The SC has turned to a bigot fest not a discussion forum.

It really comes down to how fucked you can be replying to the post whores that simply must have the last word, even if it is an insult with nothing to do with the conversation.

The usuals high five each other with the insulting comments and tell you that you are wrong because 'we all disagree'.

The speakers corner has transformed from a myrad of different opinions and posters to a couple of dozen post whores that wish to comment but refuse to debate.

It is a shame, many people have been pushed away.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[metalslug 31]

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I miss the old religious, evolution, gun debates that used to run with lots of different opinion and opposing viewpoints.

SC seems to have descended into a tit for tat insult forum.

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It is a shame, many people have been pushed away.

I wouldn't want you to leave, rhys, you're some of the finest entertainment that I see here.
If we all agreed on every forum topic then there would not be any debate, and hence nothing to read here.

As to nigel99's question;

After X-many years of SC, those regular topics have been debated to death. There is very little new material to cover.
If you miss the old threads, go back and read them, because re-posting an old topic will most likely produce a similar thread to the previous one on the same topic, interspersed with a few posts of "OMG ! not this again...".

Indeed, some comments seen here can be insulting, but keep in mind that many debates have nowhere else to go when it emerges that the main parties (no pun intended) are on completely different levels of logic, knowledge and pragmatic reality. It's oil and water.

The last word at that point is either;
Remain silent, which variably allows the other party to note your lack of rebuttal and assert "victory".
...or
Make some comment to discredit the other party which, if valid or even plausible, renders that party's comments on the thread moot.
Such comments are, by definition, insulting. If it stays within forum rules, then it's valid debating tactics.
Forum members who repeatedly dive into the ground will inevitably get dirt on them.

[nigel99 144]

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I miss the old religious, evolution, gun debates that used to run with lots of different opinion and opposing viewpoints.

SC seems to have descended into a tit for tat insult forum.

Quote

It is a shame, many people have been pushed away.

I wouldn't want you to leave, rhys, you're some of the finest entertainment that I see here.
If we all agreed on every forum topic then there would not be any debate, and hence nothing to read here.

As to nigel99's question;

After X-many years of SC, those regular topics have been debated to death. There is very little new material to cover.
If you miss the old threads, go back and read them, because re-posting an old topic will most likely produce a similar thread to the previous one on the same topic, interspersed with a few posts of "OMG ! not this again...".

Indeed, some comments seen here can be insulting, but keep in mind that many debates have nowhere else to go when it emerges that the main parties (no pun intended) are on completely different levels of logic, knowledge and pragmatic reality. It's oil and water.

The last word at that point is either;
Remain silent, which variably allows the other party to note your lack of rebuttal and assert "victory".
...or
Make some comment to discredit the other party which, if valid or even plausible, renders that party's comments on the thread moot.
Such comments are, by definition, insulting. If it stays within forum rules, then it's valid debating tactics.
Forum members who repeatedly dive into the ground will inevitably get dirt on them.

Sure the old topics have been debated to death.

I mean the summary of people in SC is

Christians play with guns, Muslims play with bombs,
Athiests play with themselves and agnostics don't exist.

I guess that the world has changed and that there are currently not many (if any) significant world events. Remember pre-Iraq war days? I remember Rhino and company with the whole "glass parking lot" debate. It was interesting and current in that feelings ran very high. Obama on your side and Cameron on our side are pretty laid back uncontroversial figures (Bush managed to unite the world against him), and Tony Blair did well as his poodle.

The financial situation doesn't seem to raise much controversy - perhaps we need a few bankers in SC

It's entertaining when a wild and whacky theory is thrown in the mix, but not for long.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mnealtx 0]

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I must live in a town full of arse holes because they have kept the renal unit .

Since it's the renal unit, wouldn't it be a town of piss-takers?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nigel99 144]

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I must live in a town full of arse holes because they have kept the renal unit .

Since it's the renal unit, wouldn't it be a town of piss-takers?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.