Recommended Posts
GeorgiaDon 340
Hi Max,QuoteWhy does God have to be supernatural? Anymore than quantum entanglement is supernatural. They both are very natural, just undefinable and unmeasurable. Is the Higgs boson supernatural with its infinite power to define matter?
The problem I see with this is that when people talk of God as the "creator", it is pretty much always in the sense of "creator and designer". The entanglement of God with the concept of a conscious intelligence is even deeper when you get to a personal God who even "marks the fall of a sparrow", and who has a "plan" of which we are all a part. A particle that imparts mass, or charge, or charm, has none of those properties of a self-aware intelligence. A God that is just the "uncaused cause", that started the universe in some physical sense (say, by setting Planck's constant, or by giving electrons and protons equivalent but opposite charge) and who has done nothing since, is not a God that fits with any religious concept, be it Christianity or any other faith. If you talk about a God that can plan, and manipulate events according to that plan, yet be beyond any method of physical detection, that God seems to me to be apart from Nature (i.e. "supernatural") by definition.
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
beowulf 1
Quote
For you that may be the question, but not for me. I don't see any reason to believe there is any supernatural being in existence. In my opinion any belief in supernatural beings is just imagined.
Why does God have to be supernatural? Anymore than quantum entanglement is supernatural. They both are very natural, just undefinable and unmeasurable. Is the Higgs boson supernatural with its infinite power to define matter? Maybe supernatural is just a term for those who are intimidated by the big picture. Covering their eyes and ears so they only see what they want to see.
You can call it whatever you want. There still isn't any evidence of any deity.
maadmax 0
--The problem I see with this is that when people talk of God as the "creator", it is pretty much always in the sense of "creator and designer". The entanglement of God with the concept of a conscious intelligence is even deeper when you get to a personal God who even "marks the fall of a sparrow", and who has a "plan" of which we are all a part. A particle that imparts mass, or charge, or charm, has none of those properties of a self-aware intelligence. A God that is just the "uncaused cause", that started the universe in some physical sense (say, by setting Planck's constant, or by giving electrons and protons equivalent but opposite charge) and who has done nothing since, is not a God that fits with any religious concept, be it Christianity or any other faith. If you talk about a God that can plan, and manipulate events according to that plan, yet be beyond any method of physical detection, that God seems to me to be apart from Nature (i.e. "supernatural") by definition.
Good points. So where do you think self aware intelligence comes from? Is it the dead end product of an infinite number of chemical reactions over 13.7 billion years? Only to return to basic inorganic matter when the universe's entropy finally maxes out? Or is it an integral part of the matter and energy that is our universe and possibly beyond(multiverses). In which case it would be eternal like the matter/energy that give it expression. And since scientists have no idea how to isolate it in a test tube, or even what it is, it may be as ubiquitous as the Higgs. If inorganic matter can spawn intelligence, I wonder what dark matter can do?
On another note , you need to come out to the DZ this weekend and jump!
HueBobbs 0
Evidence strongly suggests that our personalities reside in the meat in our heads.
The more we learn about neuroscience and how we make decisions, the more it appears that free will isn't completely free. Radiolab is an excellent radio show about complex topics explained in a simple manner, and in an episode on Choice describes experiments where seemingly irrelevant events impact the decision process.
In one experiment, people were given either a two digit number to remember, or a seven digit number to remember. Later on they were offered a choice of two desserts, an apple or a piece of fatty cake. People who had 2 digit numbers to remember consistently chose the apple, while those with 7 digit numbers consistently chose the cake.
Simple experiment, but the ramifications on free will...
The more we learn about neuroscience and how we make decisions, the more it appears that free will isn't completely free. Radiolab is an excellent radio show about complex topics explained in a simple manner, and in an episode on Choice describes experiments where seemingly irrelevant events impact the decision process.
In one experiment, people were given either a two digit number to remember, or a seven digit number to remember. Later on they were offered a choice of two desserts, an apple or a piece of fatty cake. People who had 2 digit numbers to remember consistently chose the apple, while those with 7 digit numbers consistently chose the cake.
Simple experiment, but the ramifications on free will...
philh 0
QuoteIn science what you know now can change as we make a new discovery. We have scientist say they have a formula of how the universe works until they find something that they did not know about.
I am all for science and discovery, however I think we tend to think we know much more then we actually do. You have faith that science will have all the answers, and I believe science will never have all the answers.
Something can not come from nothing. So when you break it all down we still don’t know where that thing that started it all came from or how it came to be.
Now you might have an issue with how religion attempts to explain things that is understandable. However I don’t think you can just as easily write off the idea of a creator.
You say "something cant come from nothing "
have you read this paper showing that the universe can come from nothing?
"http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v30/i2/p509_1
Ironically its by Alex Vilenkin, a physicist that Christian theologian William Lane Craig loves to quote. If only some of these theologians would read the books they quote!
RonD1120 58
It almost seems as though Oswald Chambers is following this thread.
July 30th.
THE DISCIPLINE OF DISILLUSIONMENT
"Jesus did not commit Himself unto them...for He knew what was in man.” John ii. 24-25.
Disillusionment means that there are no more false judgments in life. To be undeceived by disillusionment may leave us cynical and unkindly severe in our judgment of others, but the disillusionment which comes from God brings us to the place where we see men and women as they really are, and yet there is no cynicism, we have no stinging, bitter things to say. Many of the cruel things in life spring from the fact that we suffer from illusions. We are not true to one another as facts; we are true only to our ideas of one another. Everything is either delightful and fine, or mean and dastardly, according to our idea.
The refusal to be disillusioned is the cause of much of the suffering in human life. It works in this way—if we love a human being and do not love God, we demand of him every perfection and every rectitude, and when we do not get it we become cruel and vindictive; we are demanding of a human being that which he or she cannot give. There is only one Being Who can satisfy the last aching abyss of the human heart, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Why Our Lord is apparently so severe regarding every human relationship is because He knows that every relationship not based on loyalty to Himself will end in disaster. Our Lord trusted no man, yet He was never suspicious, never bitter. Our Lord's confidence in God and in what His grace could do for any man, was so perfect that He despaired of no one. If our trust is placed in human beings, we shall end in despairing of everyone.
July 30th.
THE DISCIPLINE OF DISILLUSIONMENT
"Jesus did not commit Himself unto them...for He knew what was in man.” John ii. 24-25.
Disillusionment means that there are no more false judgments in life. To be undeceived by disillusionment may leave us cynical and unkindly severe in our judgment of others, but the disillusionment which comes from God brings us to the place where we see men and women as they really are, and yet there is no cynicism, we have no stinging, bitter things to say. Many of the cruel things in life spring from the fact that we suffer from illusions. We are not true to one another as facts; we are true only to our ideas of one another. Everything is either delightful and fine, or mean and dastardly, according to our idea.
The refusal to be disillusioned is the cause of much of the suffering in human life. It works in this way—if we love a human being and do not love God, we demand of him every perfection and every rectitude, and when we do not get it we become cruel and vindictive; we are demanding of a human being that which he or she cannot give. There is only one Being Who can satisfy the last aching abyss of the human heart, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Why Our Lord is apparently so severe regarding every human relationship is because He knows that every relationship not based on loyalty to Himself will end in disaster. Our Lord trusted no man, yet He was never suspicious, never bitter. Our Lord's confidence in God and in what His grace could do for any man, was so perfect that He despaired of no one. If our trust is placed in human beings, we shall end in despairing of everyone.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
Andy9o8 0
If Oswald Chambers and Bertrand Russell were to mud-wrestle, Russell would totally kick Chambers' ass.
RonD1120 58
QuoteIf Oswald Chambers and Bertrand Russell were to mud-wrestle, Russell would totally kick Chambers' ass.
Who cares?
By that I mean, there is a high probability that I will meet Chambers at some point in eternity.
Based on the Wikipedia bio, I am not likely to meet Russell. He apparently died in the same misery as he lived his life, constantly searching and never finding. According to Isaiah 66:21-24, I may see him but not meet him.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
MrDree 0
Just because millions of children believe in Santa doesn't make him real. As a matter of fact, children feel cheated when they discover they had blind faith in a guy who was just a figment of their parent's imagination.
In the same way, just because millions of people have the same imaginary friend doesn't make him real...
So, what's the difference between Santa and this "God" guy?
In the same way, just because millions of people have the same imaginary friend doesn't make him real...
So, what's the difference between Santa and this "God" guy?
"One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching."
Dudeist Skydiver #101
Dudeist Skydiver #101
RonD1120 58
So trite and hackneyed.
You are over one year late with that childish analogy. I think you will find it two or three times in this thread alone.
You are over one year late with that childish analogy. I think you will find it two or three times in this thread alone.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
Meso 38
QuoteBy that I mean, there is a high probability that I will meet Chambers at some point in eternity.
I often wonder about this. Do Christians honestly believe that 'eternity' where their so-called spirit will go, holds anything physical at all? You'll have no brain (so no thought or memory), no eyes... What will you be exactly...Currently I'm picturing jellyfish, lots of jellyfish.
But seriously, the whole spirit in heaven thing makes no sense. I mean, sure you can claim it's a mystery of God and one cannot understand the spirit.
But there is no way you're going to get to heaven and someone is going to say "here's your new body, I fitted you some custom new eyes ROCK ON!"
And honestly, according to the bible, heaven sounds like a very boring and materialistic place. Lots of gold and jewels... And praising the lord through song every day for eternity. Sounds more like hell to me.
MrDree 0
QuoteSo trite and hackneyed.
You are over one year late with that childish analogy. I think you will find it two or three times in this thread alone.
Oh, I'm so sorry, you're right! So what was your answer back then? Let me check...
QuoteI'll wager you are part of the intellectual elite at Perris Valley. Aren't you?
Nice one!
So please explain to the stupid soon-to-be-rotting-in-hell agnostic that I am, why is that analogy childish? Seriously, what is the difference between Santa and God? How is God more than just a shared imaginary friend?
"One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching."
Dudeist Skydiver #101
Dudeist Skydiver #101
RonD1120 58
QuoteSeriously, what is the difference between Santa and God? How is God more than just a shared imaginary friend?
Start with the Gospel of John, then Matthew, Mark and Luke. After that read Romans.
I have a busy schedule coming up today and lasting several days. That is your homework assignment. Send me a PM on your progress later.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
Andy9o8 0
QuoteQuoteSeriously, what is the difference between Santa and God? How is God more than just a shared imaginary friend?
Start with the Gospel of John, then Matthew, Mark and Luke. After that read Romans.
I have a busy schedule coming up today and lasting several days. That is your homework assignment. Send me a PM on your progress later.
Well, then here's your assignment:
Start with The Autobiography of Santa Claus by Jeff Guinn; then
Santa Claus, Last of the Wild Men: The Origins and Evolution of Saint Nicholas, Spanning 50,000 Years by Phyllis Siefker; then
Kissing Santa Claus by Donna Kauffman, Jill Shalvis, and HelenKay Dimon; then
Santa Claus in Baghdad and Other Stories about Teens in the Arab World by Elsa Marston; then
Santa Claus Don't Come To No Colored Girl's House by Janice A. Vailes.
Quiz next Wednesday.
MrDree 0
QuoteQuoteSeriously, what is the difference between Santa and God? How is God more than just a shared imaginary friend?
Start with the Gospel of John, then Matthew, Mark and Luke. After that read Romans.
Okay, so there is a book about God. Good for him, but I bet there are books about Santa, too. So, except your freaking fables book that I don't give a crap about, is there a difference?
And please, can you give me your own opinion? Do you even have one?
Edit to add:
See? There are books about Santa, and lots of them! Thanks Andy! "One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching."
Dudeist Skydiver #101
Dudeist Skydiver #101
RonD1120 58
QuoteQuoteBy that I mean, there is a high probability that I will meet Chambers at some point in eternity.
I often wonder about this. Do Christians honestly believe that 'eternity' where their so-called spirit will go, holds anything physical at all? You'll have no brain (so no thought or memory), no eyes... What will you be exactly...Currently I'm picturing jellyfish, lots of jellyfish.
But seriously, the whole spirit in heaven thing makes no sense. I mean, sure you can claim it's a mystery of God and one cannot understand the spirit.
But there is no way you're going to get to heaven and someone is going to say "here's your new body, I fitted you some custom new eyes ROCK ON!"
And honestly, according to the bible, heaven sounds like a very boring and materialistic place. Lots of gold and jewels... And praising the lord through song every day for eternity. Sounds more like hell to me.
Romans 8:11
The spirit of man is united with the Spirit of God and the soul continues for eternity in a glorified body, as Christ is, and remains in fellowship with Him forever.
He is the shepherd and we are the sheep of His pasture.
I'll be absent for a period.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
RonD1120 58
QuoteQuoteQuoteSeriously, what is the difference between Santa and God? How is God more than just a shared imaginary friend?
Start with the Gospel of John, then Matthew, Mark and Luke. After that read Romans.
Okay, so there is a book about God. Good for him, but I bet there are books about Santa, too. So, except your freaking fables book that I don't give a crap about, is there a difference?
And please, can you give me your own opinion? Do you even have one?
I am not willing to invest more in YOUR salvation than you are willing to invest. Do your homework.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
Most NT scholars I know would say no. So would I based on my studies when I earned a MA in Theo
steveOrino
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites