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QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
What percentage of the populace do they represent?
Why is that relevant?
significance
So it's OK to deny rights to a group as long as they are not "significant" in your sight. OK, nice to know how you feel.
They are not citizens, therefore they have no rights in reguards to being in the US.
The people in the group he was referring to were citizens.
the thread is about illegals and that is what I am refering to.
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
What percentage of the populace do they represent?
Why is that relevant?
significance
So it's OK to deny rights to a group as long as they are not "significant" in your sight. OK, nice to know how you feel.
They are not citizens, therefore they have no rights in reguards to being in the US.
The people in the group he was referring to were citizens.
the thread is about illegals and that is what I am refering to.
Do you really believe that only US Citizens have rights in our country????
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
What percentage of the populace do they represent?
Why is that relevant?
significance
So it's OK to deny rights to a group as long as they are not "significant" in your sight. OK, nice to know how you feel.
They are not citizens, therefore they have no rights in reguards to being in the US.
The people in the group he was referring to were citizens.
the thread is about illegals and that is what I am refering to.
In that case, you should have clarified your context, because the specific posts you were "in reply to" were about a different group altogether.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
What percentage of the populace do they represent?
Why is that relevant?
significance
So it's OK to deny rights to a group as long as they are not "significant" in your sight. OK, nice to know how you feel.
They are not citizens, therefore they have no rights in reguards to being in the US.
The people in the group he was referring to were citizens.
the thread is about illegals and that is what I am refering to.
Do you really believe that only US Citizens have rights in our country????
If you read and understood what I wrote, yes. I didnot say they had no rights, I said they have no rights as far as being here since they are illegal. If you could find something in the constitution that says differently please show me.
billvon 2,400
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>what in the constitution gives them any rights as far as being here?
Since the Constitution refers to "people" and "persons" rather than "citizens" they have all the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. (Doesn't mean they can't be deported for entering illegally - but while they are here they are covered by our Constitution.)
Since the Constitution refers to "people" and "persons" rather than "citizens" they have all the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. (Doesn't mean they can't be deported for entering illegally - but while they are here they are covered by our Constitution.)
rushmc 18
Quote>Some people would deny civil rights to some American citizens if the
>citizen doesn't fit their particular vision of what a "citizen" [i/]should be.
Yes, and I'm one of them. Violent felons should lose their rights to own guns, even if they were born here. Rapists and murderers should be in jail, even if they are US citizens. They lose their rights - no matter how much you want them to keep them.
I wonder if you are talking past each other
There has been talk lately (by Hannity for one) that if you are a us citizen and considered to be working with or for known terrorists mirand should be waived and you could be held like an enemy combatant.
Beck is agaist this as am I. As a US citizen you are inocent until proven otherwise.
As for your points I agree but I wonder if the issues are getting confused
And yes, the Obama admin and Holder are talking of limiting the rights of US citizens if caught in the US acting as a terrorist .
Floating the ballon so to speak
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
What percentage of the populace do they represent?
Why is that relevant?
significance
So it's OK to deny rights to a group as long as they are not "significant" in your sight. OK, nice to know how you feel.
They are not citizens, therefore they have no rights in reguards to being in the US.
The people in the group he was referring to were citizens.
the thread is about illegals and that is what I am refering to.
In that case, you should have clarified your context, because the specific posts you were "in reply to" were about a different group altogether.
clarify what? this thread is about illegals, if they were legal we would have nothing to talk about.
Quote>what in the constitution gives them any rights as far as being here?
Since the Constitution refers to "people" and "persons" rather than "citizens" they have all the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. (Doesn't mean they can't be deported for entering illegally - but while they are here they are covered by our Constitution.)
since we agree on the legal status and the constitution does not benifit them the right to stay here, what is your issue on getting rid of the high cost, revenue sucking, and thieving illegals?
billvon 2,400
>what is your issue on getting rid of the high cost, revenue sucking,
>and thieving illegals?
No problem at all; indeed, if we got rid of the high cost, revenue sucking and thieving citizens at the same time, we'd be doing even better.
However, I'm also in favor of keeping the hardworking, uncomplaining, America-supporting, taxpaying illegals and finding a way to let them work legally.
>and thieving illegals?
No problem at all; indeed, if we got rid of the high cost, revenue sucking and thieving citizens at the same time, we'd be doing even better.
However, I'm also in favor of keeping the hardworking, uncomplaining, America-supporting, taxpaying illegals and finding a way to let them work legally.
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
What percentage of the populace do they represent?
Why is that relevant?
significance
So it's OK to deny rights to a group as long as they are not "significant" in your sight. OK, nice to know how you feel.
They are not citizens, therefore they have no rights in reguards to being in the US.
The people in the group he was referring to were citizens.
the thread is about illegals and that is what I am refering to.
In that case, you should have clarified your context, because the specific posts you were "in reply to" were about a different group altogether.
clarify what? this thread is about illegals, if they were legal we would have nothing to talk about.
You are missing the point. You replied to a specific post referring, for the legitimate purpose of comparison, to the rights of a group that was NOT illegal aliens. If you wanted to make a general point about illegal aliens, you should have replied to a different post.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote>what is your issue on getting rid of the high cost, revenue sucking,
>and thieving illegals?
No problem at all; indeed, if we got rid of the high cost, revenue sucking and thieving citizens at the same time, we'd be doing even better.
However, I'm also in favor of keeping the hardworking, uncomplaining, America-supporting, taxpaying illegals and finding a way to let them work legally.
then let them fill out the paperwork and become legal and the problem would be solved. In the mean time send them home and make them earn the trip here and maybe they will apreciate being here more.
billvon 2,400
>then let them fill out the paperwork and become legal and the problem
>would be solved.
Most of them can't. Even if they fill out the paperwork they are refused, and companies hire the illegal workers instead. That's one thing that has to be fixed.
>would be solved.
Most of them can't. Even if they fill out the paperwork they are refused, and companies hire the illegal workers instead. That's one thing that has to be fixed.
GeorgiaDon 340
Quotethen let them fill out the paperwork and become legal and the problem would be solved.
I'll then ask you the question I posed in post #27 of this thread, which Airdivr has so far refused to (or is incapable of) answering:
What specific immigrant visa program is available to would-be immigrants who do not have advanced University degrees or family members who are legally able to sponsor them?
The visas I am familiar with (H, J, and TN) require advanced education (engineering degrees, or a PhD in a hard science) are targeted to specific industries or to Universities, and are limited by tight quotas, so that it may take years to obtain the visa. Also none of them allow you to show up at the border and "fill in the paperwork", in every case you must be sponsored by an employer who must want you badly enough to pay several thousand dollars in fees and fill out endless paperwork over months to years, plus cope with annual renewal fees and paperwork. I know of no program to admit landscapers, chicken plant workers, or carpenters. So, please tell me what specific visa category applies to such people. Thanks!
Don
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
turtlespeed 212
QuoteQuotethen let them fill out the paperwork and become legal and the problem would be solved.
I'll then ask you the question I posed in post #27 of this thread, which Airdivr has so far refused to (or is incapable of) answering:
What specific immigrant visa program is available to would-be immigrants who do not have advanced University degrees or family members who are legally able to sponsor them?
The visas I am familiar with (H, J, and TN) require advanced education (engineering degrees, or a PhD in a hard science) are targeted to specific industries or to Universities, and are limited by tight quotas, so that it may take years to obtain the visa. Also none of them allow you to show up at the border and "fill in the paperwork", in every case you must be sponsored by an employer who must want you badly enough to pay several thousand dollars in fees and fill out endless paperwork over months to years, plus cope with annual renewal fees and paperwork. I know of no program to admit landscapers, chicken plant workers, or carpenters. So, please tell me what specific visa category applies to such people. Thanks!
Don
Don
Why does there have to be a specific visa for it? There are student visas.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
GeorgiaDon 340
Because that's how our system works. We don't allow tourists, for example, to work. If you want to work you need work authorization, and you need to be on a visa that specifically allows for that.QuoteWhy does there have to be a specific visa for it?
The student visa is the F1 visa. To obtain a F1 visa you need to be enrolled full time at an accredited school, and as a foreign student you usually have to post a bond to indicate that you have sufficient resources to support yourself through the course of study. In some cases students are allowed to work for the school in a work/study program or as a teaching assistant, especially if the degree requires the student to complete some teaching experience, which is often the case in graduate level programs. For the most part, foreign students bring money (lots of money!) from home and spend it here. For example, they have to pay out-of-state tuition, which is 4-5 times what in-state students pay. You can't be a full-time student on a F1 visa and work in a chicken plant, that would violate the conditions of the visa and you'd be working illegally.QuoteThere are student visas.
So once again, what specific visa/work authorization is available to day laborers, landscapers, carpenters, chicken pluckers, etc?
Anyone?
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
airdvr 197
QuoteQuotethen let them fill out the paperwork and become legal and the problem would be solved.
I'll then ask you the question I posed in post #27 of this thread, which Airdivr has so far refused to (or is incapable of) answering:
What specific immigrant visa program is available to would-be immigrants who do not have advanced University degrees or family members who are legally able to sponsor them?
The visas I am familiar with (H, J, and TN) require advanced education (engineering degrees, or a PhD in a hard science) are targeted to specific industries or to Universities, and are limited by tight quotas, so that it may take years to obtain the visa. Also none of them allow you to show up at the border and "fill in the paperwork", in every case you must be sponsored by an employer who must want you badly enough to pay several thousand dollars in fees and fill out endless paperwork over months to years, plus cope with annual renewal fees and paperwork. I know of no program to admit landscapers, chicken plant workers, or carpenters. So, please tell me what specific visa category applies to such people. Thanks!
Don
Don
You are correct when you say I'm incapable of answering the question. I don't know enough about how you go about entering the US if you're a Mexican citizen.
Because I don't know doesn't change the laws.
Please don't dent the planet.
Destinations by Roxanne
Destinations by Roxanne
turtlespeed 212
QuoteBecause that's how our system works. We don't allow tourists, for example, to work. If you want to work you need work authorization, and you need to be on a visa that specifically allows for that.QuoteWhy does there have to be a specific visa for it?
The student visa is the F1 visa. To obtain a F1 visa you need to be enrolled full time at an accredited school, and as a foreign student you usually have to post a bond to indicate that you have sufficient resources to support yourself through the course of study. In some cases students are allowed to work for the school in a work/study program or as a teaching assistant, especially if the degree requires the student to complete some teaching experience, which is often the case in graduate level programs. For the most part, foreign students bring money (lots of money!) from home and spend it here. For example, they have to pay out-of-state tuition, which is 4-5 times what in-state students pay. You can't be a full-time student on a F1 visa and work in a chicken plant, that would violate the conditions of the visa and you'd be working illegally.QuoteThere are student visas.
So once again, what specific visa/work authorization is available to day laborers, landscapers, carpenters, chicken pluckers, etc?
Anyone?
Don
Perhaps I could have been less informal.
Why do you feel that there needs to be such a visa?
Why do you feel we should make that accomodation.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteBecause that's how our system works. We don't allow tourists, for example, to work. If you want to work you need work authorization, and you need to be on a visa that specifically allows for that.QuoteWhy does there have to be a specific visa for it?
The student visa is the F1 visa. To obtain a F1 visa you need to be enrolled full time at an accredited school, and as a foreign student you usually have to post a bond to indicate that you have sufficient resources to support yourself through the course of study. In some cases students are allowed to work for the school in a work/study program or as a teaching assistant, especially if the degree requires the student to complete some teaching experience, which is often the case in graduate level programs. For the most part, foreign students bring money (lots of money!) from home and spend it here. For example, they have to pay out-of-state tuition, which is 4-5 times what in-state students pay. You can't be a full-time student on a F1 visa and work in a chicken plant, that would violate the conditions of the visa and you'd be working illegally.QuoteThere are student visas.
So once again, what specific visa/work authorization is available to day laborers, landscapers, carpenters, chicken pluckers, etc?
Anyone?
Don
Perhaps I could have been less informal.
Why do you feel that there needs to be such a visa?
Why do you feel we should make that accomodation.
Lots of our CEOs and small business owners think there should be an accommodation. St. Ronald Reagan thought there should be an accommodation. GWB thinks there should be an accommodation. John McCain thought there should be an accommodation until it became unexpedient for him. Why do YOU think there shouldn't be one?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote>then let them fill out the paperwork and become legal and the problem
>would be solved.
Most of them can't. Even if they fill out the paperwork they are refused, and companies hire the illegal workers instead. That's one thing that has to be fixed.
maybe if the illegals were sent home, then the companies would have to look into helping them fill out the paper work to be here legally or hire american workers at a fair wage.
GeorgiaDon 340
Now we're getting somewhere.QuoteWhy do you feel that there needs to be such a visa?
Why do you feel we should make that accomodation.
From the US Department of State website: "In general, to be eligible to apply for an immigrant visa, a foreign citizen must be sponsored by a U.S. citizen relative(s), U.S. lawful permanent resident, or by a prospective employer..."
In fact there are only two categories of people who can "self-sponsor" their immigration. The first are eminent scientists and researchers (pretty much just Nobel Prize level people), and athletes and entertainers who have attained "household name recognition" status; those people can apply under the "National Interest" category. Also if you invest at least $1,000,000 in eligible US businesses you can "purchase" a Green Card. Obviously this category will never include day laborers and chicken plant workers.
The second way to immigrate without a corporate or family member sponsor is through the Green Card lottery. This program makes available up to 50,000 green cards for people from countries where immigration to the US is low (which is why it's called the "Diversity Visa Lottery"). People from the following countries are NOT eligible for the lottery: Brazil, Canada, China (... excluding Hong Kong S.A.R., and Taiwan), Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, the Philippines, Poland, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam. I underlined the Latin American countries to make it clear that essentially ALL of the illegal immigrants that people are worked up about are ineligible to apply to the "diversity lottery".
For all of you who say that all the people who coming here illegally should leave and reapply to immigrate legally, there is no legal way for them to do so. For them, the door is shut. Turtle, your comments suggest to me that on a "gut level" this is actually what you, and likely many of the most virulently "anti-illegal" types, want. Keep them out! They'll threaten our way of life! Never mind that your ancestors were allowed in, which you are now benefiting from. Now that you're in, shut the door! No more of that "rabble"!
America used to be characterized by: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Now it's "Give me your educated, your accomplished, your wealthy. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, those you can keep. If you send the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, there will be no lamp and there is no door."
Don't you agree it's more than a little hypocritical and disingenuous to tell people they must come here legally, when (for the great majority of them) there is no way for them to do that?
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
airdvr 197
QuoteDon't you agree it's more than a little hypocritical and disingenuous to tell people they must come here legally, when (for the great majority of them) there is no way for them to do that?
Collateral damage from 9/11. We repeatedly were told about bad men here illegally.
I don't think its hypocritical to enforce the laws. Perhaps the laws need changed.
Please don't dent the planet.
Destinations by Roxanne
Destinations by Roxanne
GeorgiaDon 340
How many Mexican/Colombian/Guatemalan citizens piloted those planes?
The USA I know is bigger than "collateral damage". I think "collateral damage" is code for "I don't like all those brown-skinned funny-talking people, and 911 looks like a pretty good straw I can grasp".
Don
The USA I know is bigger than "collateral damage". I think "collateral damage" is code for "I don't like all those brown-skinned funny-talking people, and 911 looks like a pretty good straw I can grasp".
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
kallend 1,623
QuoteAlso if you invest at least $1,000,000 in eligible US businesses you can "purchase" a Green Card.
Hey, that's the American Way.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
what in the constitution gives them any rights as far as being here?
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