Amazon 7 #76 February 16, 2010 Quote Quote But it cetainly turns the odds against being a completely helpless victim. Only if a criminal is not carrying. If he is, and he strikes first, the odds are turned back. Again, note that Houston violent crime is high, which somehow tells us that just having armed people around is not enough. Quote We will see how it changes YOUR perspective once you have been a helpless victim. It is always funny to read assumptions from the people who barely know me. Well, at least you're not speculating that I fear guns - kudos for that. Quote Just because you BELIEVE you live in a safe place and its never happened in your idyllic life.. does NOT mean that all that safety could come crashing down so very hard around you. I'd say a lot of gun owners seem to dramatically overestimate the ability of their guns to protect them from crimes in a serious disaster. The fact is that crime is high all thru the country.. not just Houston... or Chicago. Big cities everywhere are pretty bad... but there are plenty of criminals in small cities... and rural areas.. who are ready and willing to prey on all those unarmed victims that are out there just for the taking... that is how their minds work. They prey on those who are easy marks.... guess where that puts all of you who think your police saviors will keep you safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdthomas 0 #77 February 16, 2010 Quote Quote I am sure guys like my brother love you non gun carrying guys, espically your young defenceless daughters or wives! I think you are confusing "mnealtx" with some other user. I am pretty sure "mnealtx" is NOT an anti. But it is true that criminals love the idea of strict gun control. I agree with with mnealtx, I just used his material as part of my thought process. I know where he stands on the issues. My point was to show that bad guys don't care about the gun laws and will change habits to fit thier needs. case in point my brother went from a life previously filled with armed robbery and theft and when people began to arm themselves through Kansas concealed carry his tatics changed to up his odds and he went for smaller, more likely unarmed and defenceless prey of young girls.www.greenboxphotography.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #78 February 16, 2010 QuoteNews:2 electricians, bandit shot in robbery Two men were shot Thursday afternoon in an elaborate robbery setup that ended with a would-be bandit in critical condition, police said. A crew of robbers broke into a home. While in the house, the bandits used the phone book and called electricians to the home. The first electrician to arrive to the home was ambushed and shot in the leg. He was tied up and placed in another room. A second electrician came to the home, but fought back after he also was shot in the leg. "He was armed, and shot one of the perpetrators." While other members of the robbing crew escaped, the one shot was taken to Grady Memorial Hospital where he remains in critical condition.Source: http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/2-electricians-bandit-shot-298597.html Two robberies, one of an unarmed victim, and one of an armed victim. If the armed victim had been the first one, then there wouldn't have been a second. And he may have stopped there from being any additional victims, or even possibly murders. What a difference a gun makes. You seem to have picked an odd story to support your (our) position on gun control. Three people were shot. Two of them were innocent of any wrongdoing. This is a poor measure of "success." Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #79 February 16, 2010 Currently criminals have to wonder most places if their intended victim has a gun. Even if you choose personally to not to have a gun, by others still having that right you are safer. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #80 February 16, 2010 Quote The fact is that crime is high all thru the country.. not just Houston... or Chicago. Big cities everywhere are pretty bad... but there are plenty of criminals in small cities... and rural areas.. who are ready and willing to prey on all those unarmed victims that are out there just for the taking... that is how their minds work. First let's make it clear that there is only few crimes (generally violent crime) where a gun can be useful to protect the gun owner. It cannot protect the one from identity theft or fraud, it cannot prevent a drunk driver smashing into their car or their rig from being stolen either. This is important as some gun owners seem to be thinking that their gun a magic amulet which protects them from harm. It is not. It is just a better murder tool than a knife. Second, even in violent crimes the protection it provides is limited. It will unlikely protect you in a drive-through shooting, or in place where guns are not allowed (and there always be such places). Also a possibility for armed response makes some criminal more violent that they would otherwise be. And if a criminal is carrying too, the odds are on his side because he strikes first (and with a gun his strike may be fatal, making it irrelevant whether a victim carries or not).* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #81 February 16, 2010 QuoteQuote The fact is that crime is high all thru the country.. not just Houston... or Chicago. Big cities everywhere are pretty bad... but there are plenty of criminals in small cities... and rural areas.. who are ready and willing to prey on all those unarmed victims that are out there just for the taking... that is how their minds work. First let's make it clear that there is only few crimes (generally violent crime) where a gun can be useful to protect the gun owner. It cannot protect the one from identity theft or fraud, it cannot prevent a drunk driver smashing into their car or their rig from being stolen either. This is important as some gun owners seem to be thinking that their gun a magic amulet which protects them from harm. It is not. It is just a better murder tool than a knife. Second, even in violent crimes the protection it provides is limited. It will unlikely protect you in a drive-through shooting, or in place where guns are not allowed (and there always be such places). Also a possibility for armed response makes some criminal more violent that they would otherwise be. And if a criminal is carrying too, the odds are on his side because he strikes first (and with a gun his strike may be fatal, making it irrelevant whether a victim carries or not). Bullshit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #82 February 16, 2010 Quote Bullshit Please be more specific. I hope you're not saying your guns gonna protect you from identity theft?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #83 February 16, 2010 Quote Quote Bullshit Please be more specific. I hope you're not saying your guns gonna protect you from identity theft? I thought it was the most succinct response to a post so devoid of reality. If you REALLY think some fucking lame ass gangsta holding his weapon sideways is going to outshoot me... you really do live in some strange fantasy world with unicorns and rainbowsMost of those dumbasses cant hit the broad side of a supertanker... anywhere within 100ft he will be catching one right between the running lights from me. I even see something pointed my way.. and I will not be hesitating... and I actually practice that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #84 February 16, 2010 Quote If you REALLY think some fucking lame ass gangsta holding his weapon sideways is going to outshoot me... you really do live in some strange fantasy world with unicorns and rainbows This sounds unsubstantiated. I wonder if you had relevant experience in past, or just speculating?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #85 February 16, 2010 Quote Quote If you REALLY think some fucking lame ass gangsta holding his weapon sideways is going to outshoot me... you really do live in some strange fantasy world with unicorns and rainbows This sounds unsubstantiated. I wonder if you had relevant experience in past, or just speculating? What part of going to the SHOOTING range EVERY week did you not translate????Oh and by the way.. the thing I practice with is sitting right here attached to my belt.. the other one is in my purse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #86 February 16, 2010 QuoteThis is important as some gun owners seem to be thinking that their gun a magic amulet which protects them from harm. Identify one such person. You can't. It's your construct - that if a gun isn't a magic amulet, it's not worth having and instead should be banned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #87 February 16, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote Bullshit Please be more specific. I hope you're not saying your guns gonna protect you from identity theft? I thought it was the most succinct response to a post so devoid of reality. yeah. I thought about addressing it, but I like your approach better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #88 February 17, 2010 QuoteYou seem to have picked an odd story to support your (our) position on gun control. Three people were shot. Two of them were innocent of any wrongdoing. This is a poor measure of "success." I chose to highlight this story because of the difference between the 1st unarmed victim, and the 2nd armed victim. The success was the 2nd victim, who was armed and fought back, ending the robbery and shooting spree. He may not have been able to keep himself from being shot, but by shooting back, he prevented the bad guys from creating any further victims, or from finishing off the ones they had already wounded. Yes, it wasn't a perfect outcome, but it was better than if the 2nd victim had been unarmed just like the 1st. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #89 February 17, 2010 QuoteFirst let's make it clear that there is only few crimes (generally violent crime) where a gun can be useful to protect the gun owner. It cannot protect the one from identity theft or fraud, it cannot prevent a drunk driver smashing into their car or their rig from being stolen either. This is important as some gun owners seem to be thinking that their gun a magic amulet which protects them from harm. It is not. It is just a better murder tool than a knife. Second, even in violent crimes the protection it provides is limited. It will unlikely protect you in a drive-through shooting, or in place where guns are not allowed (and there always be such places). Also a possibility for armed response makes some criminal more violent that they would otherwise be. And if a criminal is carrying too, the odds are on his side because he strikes first (and with a gun his strike may be fatal, making it irrelevant whether a victim carries or not). I don't know where you get this stuff. Well, yes, I do know - the anti-gun folks. First, in 20 years of studying this subject, I have never seen any gun guy claim the things you mention in your 1st paragraph. That's one of the biggest red herrings I've ever seen. No surprise that it would come from you. And your presumptions in the 2nd paragraph are also false. It's junk that is commonly said by anti-gunnies, but it's just plain false. It's time to trot out this study once again, for the new guy here. That's you: Rates of Injury by Victim's Method of Protection: Robbery Assault Physical force ............................ 51% 52% Tried to get help or frighten attacker .... 49% 40% Knife ..................................... 40% 30% Non-violent resistance/evasion ............ 35% 26% Threatened or reasoned with attacker ...... 31% 25% Other measures ............................ 27% 21% No self protection ........................ 25% 27% Other weapon .............................. 22% 25% Gun ....................................... 17% 12% From: Kleck G, "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America", Table 4.4. Source: Analysis of incident files of 1979-1985 National Crime Survey public use computer tapes (ICPSR,1987b). Note: Percentages do not total to 100% since any single criminal incident can involve several different types of self-protection methods. Do you see what the single most effective means of defense is? It's a gun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #90 February 17, 2010 Quote What part of going to the SHOOTING range EVERY week did you not translate???? So? Some not-so-fucking and not-so-lame ass gangstas may go to shooting range too. They also might have experience shooting real people, and being criminals they strike first. That's why I asked if you have real experience outshooting gangstas in real-world situation.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #91 February 17, 2010 Quote Quote What part of going to the SHOOTING range EVERY week did you not translate???? So? Some not-so-fucking and not-so-lame ass gangstas may go to shooting range too. They also might have experience shooting real people, and being criminals they strike first. That's why I asked if you have real experience outshooting gangstas in real-world situation. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. dude... give it up. Your lame meter is on overload. Ever hear the term practice makes perfect... but if you ever shot anything other than your........well you get the picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #92 February 17, 2010 Quote First, in 20 years of studying this subject, I have never seen any gun guy claim the things you mention in your 1st paragraph. Well, every time one states that a gun is a useful tool in protecting one from crime, or talks about gun ownership and crime rates this is exactly what I mentioned in 1st paragraph. And it is important to point out that vast majority of all crimes are not affected by gun ownership, and cannot be prevented by owning or carrying a gun. Generally only violent crime can be affected by gun ownership, and only some part of it. Quote And your presumptions in the 2nd paragraph are also false. There was quite a bunch of presumptions; are you saying that all of them are false? Quote It's time to trot out this study once again, for the new guy here. That's you: No self protection ........................ 25% 27% Gun ....................................... 17% 12% Interesting. Basically what you're saying is that using a gun for self-protection versus doing nothing at all lowers a victim's chance to get hurt only by 8% during a robbery, and only by 15% during assault. This is if we use the information reported by a very biased source (a prominent pro-gun book writer), so the real difference may be even lower. But even taking it as face value, is a 8% difference really look like a significant advantage to you? Don't you also find it strange that 17% of gun owners were injured during robbery versus 25% of non-gun owners? Quote Do you see what the single most effective means of defense is? If we exclude the gun from the table, do you see what the single most effective means is?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #93 February 17, 2010 QuoteIf we exclude the gun from the table, do you see what the single most effective means is? Peeing down your leg???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #94 February 17, 2010 Based on your previous responses in various threads I already thought it may be stupid idea to seriously discuss anything with you, but I still tried. Sorry, but "BWAHAHA" and "lame meter" is not what I consider a mature and civilized discussion, but apparently this is the only way of discussion you are capable of. Well, thank you and have a nice day.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #95 February 17, 2010 Quote Based on your previous responses in various threads I already thought it may be stupid idea to seriously discuss anything with you, but I still tried. Sorry, but "BWAHAHA" and "lame meter" is not what I consider a mature and civilized discussion, but apparently this is the only way of discussion you are capable of. Well, thank you and have a nice day. George... dear... face it.. when it comes to guns.. and personal protection.. YOU DO NOT GET IT. BUT.. you do keep trying to argue without the knowledge needed. You are ignorant of the realities that are out there just waiting. It seems to me you are just in denial of your eventual close encounter of the herd kind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #96 February 17, 2010 Quote BUT.. you do keep trying to argue without the knowledge needed. Ok, please tell me what kind of knowledge you think I should obtain to be able to decide whether non-gun owners would benefit if current gun availability was reduced or not?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #97 February 17, 2010 QuoteQuote BUT.. you do keep trying to argue without the knowledge needed. Ok, please tell me what kind of knowledge you think I should obtain to be able to decide whether non-gun owners would benefit if current gun availability was reduced or not? Its a FALSE hope.. you see it as a panacea that will somehow make you safer...the guns are here... this is not the same culture of sheepdom that Europe suffers under.. where only the police and criminals have the guns in most places. Even there though... people still are attacked.. and are still killed. At least here I stand a better chance to protect myself from predators. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #98 February 17, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat's the million dollar question. How do you prevent certain people from having access to firearms without trampling on the constitutional rights of the overwhelming majority? Is it even possible? We already do a half-assed job. Closing a few of the obvious LOOPHOLES would be a good start. Same lame response. SPECIFICS, please.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #99 February 17, 2010 QuoteQuote Oh yes they are SOOOO safe.. just like you.. until that safety is erased very quickly and harshly by circumstances you did not see coming with your head in the sand HOPING nothing bad happens to you. This may happen whether or not you own guns. If you look on crime stats, you'll see it yourself that Houston, Detroit, New Orleans, Jacksonville have significant amount of violent crime - despite the relaxed gun laws. And disarmed Chicago, NYC and places such as Oakland (#2 violent crime in the country for 2008) are right up there with 'em - got a POINT? QuoteQuote I am glad you believe your life is so safe.... its a fantasy in this society.. but just like those who beielve they are invincible in skydiving and nothing could EVER happen to them.....all of a sudden.. shit happens. This is as true as saying as having guns makes you invincible. No, we know better - but seeing as how you keep trying to make that stupid point, evidently YOU don't.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #100 February 17, 2010 Quote Quote What part of going to the SHOOTING range EVERY week did you not translate???? So? Some not-so-fucking and not-so-lame ass gangstas may go to shooting range too. They also might have experience shooting real people, and being criminals they strike first. That's why I asked if you have real experience outshooting gangstas in real-world situation. Like your 'real experience' with robbers shooting people (making them murderers)? You don't happen to live in Oakland, do you?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
