Quote
It is not a problem for Christians.
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
That's what I said - every religion finds a way to define "cult" the way to fit everyone else except them.
You think you're not just another sect who is "doing it wrong"? Ask Jehova Witnesses, they will tell you why you are mistaken.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
QuoteIf you listen, even the rotting dead speak.
I just listened for my Grandpa, and didn't hear anything.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
RonD1120 58
QuoteAsk Jehova Witnesses, they will tell you why you are mistaken.
Funny you should bring that up. Jehova's Witnesses won't talk to me. After I explain Whose I am and why, they thank me for the time and walk away. Once when I was working a VVA fund raiser at Walmart, a JW attempted to get me to accept his Watchtower news. By the time I was finished talking to him and praying for him he was screeching, "Who are you?" He fled the area.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
RonD1120 58
Quoteyeah. it felt good. like being a part of a community. like the way i feel when i am at DZ with the people i love and trust. But something was missing. I started discovering gaps in the information being presented to me as a christian. I was 6 when I started to understand what was going on as a "believer". I spent my entire life in a "holy ghost" filled church going 4 times a week. I learned a lot. But I always knew something was wrong. Things didn't match up with logic, such as:
1: What if you are not able to believe in the abrahamic God and messages and rules? What if you are just wired differently and require belief based around unbiased evidence and logic. WHat then? Will I still be sent to hell for exercising free will? I started to realize it was made up.
2. I started to travel the world in the Navy in 2002 and saw so many cultures with their own creation myths, Gods, afterlives and requirements for such. All radically different although some were along the same lines. I continually started to realize that it was bogus.
3. I started attending Penn State with a BA in Cultural Anthropology, on my own specializing in religion, and learned deeper the process of evolution and the empirical evidence whether physical, genetic, or embryological and at the same time I saw groups of faith trying to counter it with the "bible" which at the time I supported. I realized that that is not a sufficient form of evidence as it is radically different from the original works. Now we have "intelligent design" which is just another idiot friendly term for creationism. Still very unsupported only by an ancient book that has changed more than we could imagine.
4. The fact that human beings have been on this planet for 200,000 years with only the last 2.5-3500 years under the belief of a single God. Before that, and still today, it was paganism and before that it was animal/plant spirit worship. It is just an evolved idea used to deny the fact we are responsible for our own actions.
5. Jesus was a man. Thats it. The pagan practices and rituals were applied to Jesus' life to appease both the pagan and new christian uprising in socialized Europe in the 300's AD. Constantine was smart about this and at the first council of niceaa they picked and chose and created different works to add on to the already confiscated Torah.
Here is why we created God: the inability to explain phenomena such as natural disasters, death, the night sky, disease, greed, etc. We put God in the gaps of science. Here is the next part, as we discover more and more and learn daily God is being pushed out of our lives. Sure people will hold on to the idea and that will evolve into the next crazy idea but God is being pushed out of the gaps.
When I left the faith I felt amazing. Highly educated and ready to share my new knowledge with the world. Sadly the people who dont know or understand the advances in science, mathematics, astronomy, history, anthropology and archaeology are the lower class or people who are "too" comfortable in their faith. Claiming faith as there reason for not wanting to learn. But faith is the boast of a man who is too lazy too investigate.
Now my parents are still in the church but me and my 3 siblings are all agnostic/atheist as we went to college and are continuing to learn as more information comes along.
Thank you for taking the time to share your personal details.
My academic background and military service was similar with several points in common. My born again experience occurred on 16 Mar 81. At that time the Holy Spirit presented me with a clear choice between what I had studied and the reality of Jesus.
From your background description, I would say you are a seeker as I was. As such, I believe you will reach that juncture or crossroads in your life where you will be presented with the opportunity to ask Jesus to come into your heart as opposed to being an intellectual concept. It will be a unique circumstance defining your decisive choice. You will recognize the spiritual appointment when it comes.
God speed.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
jclalor 12
"This I believe" by Penn Jillete
I believe that there is no God. I’m beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy — you can’t prove a negative, so there’s no work to do. You can’t prove that there isn’t an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word “elephant” includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?
So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.
But, this “This I Believe” thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life’s big picture, some rules to live by. So, I’m saying, “This I believe: I believe there is no God.”
Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I’m not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it’s everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I’m raising now is enough that I don’t need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.
Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.
Believing there’s no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I’m wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don’t travel in circles where people say, “I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith.” That’s just a long-winded religious way to say, “shut up,” or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, “How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do.” So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that’s always fun. It means I’m learning something.
Believing there is no God means the suffering I’ve seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn’t caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn’t bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.
Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
Penn Jillette is the taller, louder half of the magic and comedy act Penn and Teller. He is a research fellow at the Cato Institute and has lectured at Oxford and MIT. Penn has co-authored three best-selling books and is executive producer of the documentary film, “The Aristocrats."
I believe that there is no God. I’m beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy — you can’t prove a negative, so there’s no work to do. You can’t prove that there isn’t an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word “elephant” includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?
So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.
But, this “This I Believe” thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life’s big picture, some rules to live by. So, I’m saying, “This I believe: I believe there is no God.”
Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I’m not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it’s everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I’m raising now is enough that I don’t need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.
Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.
Believing there’s no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I’m wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don’t travel in circles where people say, “I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith.” That’s just a long-winded religious way to say, “shut up,” or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, “How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do.” So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that’s always fun. It means I’m learning something.
Believing there is no God means the suffering I’ve seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn’t caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn’t bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.
Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
Penn Jillette is the taller, louder half of the magic and comedy act Penn and Teller. He is a research fellow at the Cato Institute and has lectured at Oxford and MIT. Penn has co-authored three best-selling books and is executive producer of the documentary film, “The Aristocrats."
RonD1120 58
Quote
Interesting evolution of thought. I also love all of the insights scientific discovery has given us. But in my studies I couldn't help notice that for a lot of what we need as humans, science doesn't have an answer. Such as the need to love and be loved unconditionally. And a way out of our myoptic sinful pattern of life that prevent us form experiencing this type of love.
I agree, there is no religion that will ever deliver that. But I did find it in a personal relationship with Jesus and the Word of God He embodied.
...
The Greeks have something like 16 different words for love. Us Westerners struggle with its definition. We tend to equate love with lust. We love our wives but break into a sweat trying to figure out the right gift for birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas and Valentine's Day. We love our children by declaring we put a roof over their heads and food in their bellies.
Sex, money and power that is our love. Add for skydivers and other extreme sport enthusiasts, the adrenalin rush.
Agape, Zoe, Phileo, Storge, etc., it's all Greek to me.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
rehmwa 2
QuoteI believe I previously nominated you for the position, but Nightingale would suit me fine too.
that's no good, I'd just exploit the position for my own personal gain and then go hide and live in luxury
I'd also use the bully pulpit to just issue tirade after tirade at members of both political parties - I'd use the same speech each time, but just visibly flip a coin prior to the conference (flip a coin, mutter "heads" and then write "republicans" on a blackboard (tails/democrats conversely) - and then go through the speech, and pause and look at the board each time I'm chewing out "insert party name here" for the same issues. Or even flip a coin each instance instead for an entire speech.
After about 10 of these conferences, I doubt they'd figure out the message anyway though......
Kris has better morals and might take it seriously. Too bad for her, I understand there's good money and pretty woman to be found in the job.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
"Look you idiotic (pause, flip, mutter) REPUBLICANSs you just can't pass that much spending without a source of income. Do you (pause, flip, mutter) REPUBLICANs really want to bankrupt your kids? I can't understand why you stupid (pause, flip, mutter) DEMOCRATs can't seem to get it through your thick skulls. What's wrong with you (pause, flip, mutter)........"
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Ive read this exact article before. Here on dz.com actually.. about 2 years ago. It seems this man has forfeited his right to hope. So, while his intellect is quite inspiring for some, his spirit is leading the dead. I know many dont like me using that word, but, a man who has no hope is already dead... just not in the ground yet. Its sad to me how many he is leading away, and how many cant wait to believe there is no God.
"We didn't start the fire"
Andy9o8 0
QuoteIve read this exact article before. Here on dz.com actually.. about 2 years ago. It seems this man has forfeited his right to hope. So, while his intellect is quite inspiring for some, his spirit is leading the dead. I know many dont like me using that word, but, a man who has no hope is already dead... just not in the ground yet. Its sad to me how many he is leading away, and how many cant wait to believe there is no God.
You're operating from a premise that is a fallacy: that Gillette has no hope. He simply does not believe in God, or gods, etc., etc. That is a far, far, FAR cry from not having hope. Don't make the common mistake of presuming that people whose brains are not hard-wired to believe in the spiritual, or who after much rational reflection (perhaps including their education) have concluded that the spiritual simply does not exist, are without hope, or are somehow "empty" or "lacking" inside. Far from it.
QuoteDon't make the common mistake of presuming that people whose brains are not hard-wired to believe in the spiritual, or who after much rational reflection (perhaps including their education) have concluded that the spiritual simply does not exist, are without hope, or are somehow "empty" or "lacking" inside. Far from it.
Sorry, I stand by my post. A man who believes this life is it has no hope. Sure, hope is experienced in this life without believing in God, but that is so that we might know what hope is, and know that it is good. Grace is also experienced without faith in God, usually closer to our infancy and childhood ironically enough. Also protection and comfort, and the list goes on. Is it only a coincidence that these are also qualities of goodness?
Penn jillette is also operating on the premise of fallacy is he not? In fact it seems he was quite enlightened under the same premise. Its just too bad that his enlightenment is based entirely on evidence. Anyone can believe something they can see, touch, taste, observe... thats extraordinarily easy. Our minds are built to challenge what we hear, so, naturally, my mind is challenging mr jillettes, and I still say he has no hope, and, is leading others into the same pit.
Hope is a right of life. Only, we can freely give it away, and, we can freely keep it. The choice is ours.
"We didn't start the fire"
Andy9o8 0
QuoteA man who believes this life is it has no hope.
That's just nonsense.
pirana 0
QuoteAnyone can believe something they can see, touch, taste, observe... thats extraordinarily easy.
And yet there are those that continue to deny. Proof that many (IMO most) humans are emtional creatures that think, not thinking creatures with emotions.
I think it is the other way araound. Anyone can accept and believe in things simply because they are told so; it takes discipline, awareness, and objectivity to examine something and make up your own mind.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
QuoteThat's just nonsense
You and I simply disagree. The voice of life is going to continue to speak throughout eternity, so also is the voice of death... apparently, they need each other, and you dont have any "evidence" against that. Respectively. I hope that one day we can all live knowing there is more life around every single corner... like when we were children.
If life came from nothing (as many of you suggest), I think it is safe to say that life by its very nature, can never die. I am trying to show you the difference between living and life. Living is obvious, life on the otherhand is much more miraculous in nature.
"We didn't start the fire"
labrys 0
QuoteYou and I simply disagree.
You approach all of these conversations as though you have "facts" and others have simple opinions.
Owned by Remi #?
Quote
Funny you should bring that up. Jehova's Witnesses won't talk to me. After I explain Whose I am and why, they thank me for the time and walk away.
That's why I suggested you ask Jehova Witnesses, not try to explain something to them.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
QuoteYou approach all of these conversations as though you have "facts" and others have simple opinions.
I have a sound mind, thats it. Everyone here believes what they want to believe... including you. I approach these "conversations" (some might consider many of them attacks
) like anyone else who challenges their own mind. Many of you do not like that i dont believe what you believe because it challenges what you believe. Just as what many of you do to me. Surely Im no more offensive to you as you are to me? More likely than not, I am on the defensive side, having to defend what I believe against people who continually believe that I am a ridiculous waste of a mind. Just paraphrasing... sort of.
Many times I am told by people on here that I have no communications skills, no reason, no logic, no understanding, ect... But I say "YOu and I simply disagree" and im the one accused of being condescending? How about adding something to the conversation instead of just expressing your frustration with me? Respectively.
"We didn't start the fire"
QuoteSorry, I stand by my post. A man who believes this life is it has no hope. Sure, hope is experienced in this life without believing in God, but that is so that we might know what hope is, and know that it is good.
Are you trying to say that there must be purpose of our lives (i.e. kind of target mission we must accomplish, which is set up by some god)?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
QuoteAre you trying to say that there must be purpose of our lives (i.e. kind of target mission we must accomplish, which is set up by some god)?
Life seems to be about revelation. In the flash of an instant the light can be revealed. God is love. We reflect this love, and everything in the balance as well. Nothing is "set up" by God... everything is God. All we can do is follow our hearts.
"We didn't start the fire"
I got this before from these forums and it does hold alot of truth. JCD I believe spoke of a song by someone talking about the idea of love. He said, "was it love or the idea of love". I dont remember what I wrote him back, but that stuck, in a good way. I mean, it is a very interesting and provocative thought, or idea even. The thought being that love could only be a strong idea in someone. Anyway, I have kept it in my head and incorporate it in different places ect.. Its cool... and it doesnt stop with love.
I noticed that basic song about Love just being an idea, could be used for many human expressions and emotions. So, it seems the only way to truly be satisfied with the answer to that question is by asking yourself if you believe that love is an idea, or something more.
I mean, is hope merely an idea.. faith? At what point does an idea become real? At what point does the light turn on and you recieve a change of perception? At what point does that idea become real? This answer is only found in your heart. It cant be found anywhere else.
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