My problems with God

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Religion is a belief in something. It may or may not be accompanied by rituals, social gatherings etc.

Not to me.

See Andy908's post above on you and definitions. You want to invent your own language go ahead, but try and use different words from pre-existing ones like English.

[kallend 1,661]

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Pedophilic R-C priests and the bishops that cover for them, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, G.W. Bush and many others show that your statement is absurd in the extreme.

I do not follow or answer to any of those folks. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ of Nazareth. You can have the same relationship, if you choose. None of my business.

All professed Christians, all claim a relationship with The Naz, and all unworthy of anyone's trust, including yours.

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I did meet G.W.Bush, along with his brother Jeb. I saw him as a Christian man. He did nothing in office to change my mind.

Lying about WMDs, the cost of prescription drug coverage, warrantless wiretaps, (among many other things), didn't prompt you to doubt his honesty? Shame on you.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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If one beleived that when one died he would spend eternity in paradise, why would you even care what happened here for the 70 or 80 years when you are alive. Let alone run for office, I know Jesus spoke somewhere that he was not apart of the earthly kingdome but of his father's kingdome. If I truly believed in Jesus I would sell all my belongings and give the proceeds t the poor, I would turn the other cheek. I would cover all my bases.

This is deep. The time spent here on earth is already time spent in eternity. I agree with you about GW, but just because a man is weak spiritually, does not mean he has no spirit. It would've been nice for GW to turn the other cheek, for any president for that matter, and perhaps if he had been a little stronger in spirit he would have. America would be "greatly vulnerable" to any attack if a spiritually strong Christian were in charge... many would die as a result, but, the message and power of Jesus would be heard in an amplified voice on that sort of worldly stage... its just not time yet.

The rest of your post is very true. Im afraid you may underestimate how weak we Christians really are, and how much we have to rely on God. Perfection that Jesus speaks of in the Gospels is unatainable in our minds. But, he shows us that we are loved in this weakness, and that alone makes us perfect in love. But your right, if you can find someone who did what the apostles were told to do, then you may find a very strong spiritual Christian... but, love will be present in that case (regardless of their posessions), so, look for that to make sure they are pure. Other than that, simply doing something like that in faith so that you would live later in paradise goes against the spirit of heaven (This alone is one of the fundamental problems with man made religion). If you find someone like that, they truly will want to die for you so that you might know God as well.

Something to consider also, is why would God "set the bar" below perfection if he was tying to prove our weakness in relation to him? No, its we are weak, but made perfect in that weakness through the refining power of love. This is the message given to the apostles.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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The problem people have with the concept of an afterlife, imao, stems from examples of people doing things in life that affect others negatively that they wouldn't do if they had no such belief in said afterlife.

Agreed. But also think its a bit deeper than just the promise of an afterlife. Its the miracle of life itself that holds the depth of that concept within the individual

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If all anyone ever did as a result of thinking there was an afterlife was be nice to everyone, no one would bother arguing about it

Surely this is true right?

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If you put yourself in the shoes of someone who believes that what we see around us is all we have, and we owe it to ourselves to make the most of what little that is, you'll see just how screwed up Pascal's Wager really is. The cost of believing and being wrong is written over and over again in history; it's unimaginably large

Im sorry, I dont know pascals wager... sounds like if you believe and your wrong, then you've wasted your life, but if you believe and your right then your going to heaven? Help me out. If thats what it is, then I must say philosophy class sounds like it is getting much more boring to the ever evolving wonder in the human imagination.

Im afraid you greately underestimate the power in Gods grace. God is beyond the mind, he lives in the heart. Tell someone you love them mind to mind, or, show them you love them heart to heart. The heart is the greatest tresure chest... fill it, and no matter what happens in life, you will keep that treasure always.

But I would agree with you if my faith we founded merely on tradition, oppression, rituals ect... Jesus came to say that those are not the ways to God, that faith is the only way. So, if someone truly enjoys all the rituals ect.. becasue of their faith, then what are they missing out on? Perhaps it is us who is missing out? But, if someone doesnt enjoy the rituals, and does them just for favor from God, then this goes against the message of the Gospel, and in that case you would be right.

Consider a bhuddist monk. They attempt to live extrememly humbly, and at one with life, and love, and in nature ect... thats what gives them enjoyment, pleasure, peace and enlightenment. they dont do that because they think they are going to heaven, they feel as if earth can be heaven, and so do I. Inviting God into your life is far from missing out, in fact, for me there was so much that I found to gain rather than desire to give up. Is this a fair observation to your original post?

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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If a person does not express a belief and faith in God, how do you know you can trust them? How do you know they have a history of doing right things?

Pretty much the same way as most of us do - looking on person's behavior, i.e. what person does, not what person says. One can express a belief and faith in God, and then have sex with underage boys - this has been happening in past, so as you see just expressing beliefs in God means nothing. People have committed perjury after taking an oath on bible as well.

Also if you ever been in Scandinavian countries, they are very non-religious (less than 10% of the population is religious), and apparently they do not have any trust issues.

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When Christians deal with other Christians they at least have a common foundation on which to build a relationship. The relationship may not be perfect but it has an agreed upon starting point.
That is the sole purpose of the CHRISTIAN SKYDIVERS ASSOCIATION. Christian skydivers like to associate with other Christian skydivers.

Unfortunately the difference between various Christians is so large that most Catholics would likely prefer to build a relationship with atheist than with a Jehowa Witness - and vice versa. So this has pretty little use as a relationship starting point.

And skydivers have a much better starting point for any relationship - after all, there are much less skydivers than Christians.

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No one wants to make you a believer in Christ. That is a choice for you and you alone. God is not going to drag you kicking and screaming in heaven.

The main problem, as I said above, is that some Christians still want everyone to follow their rules, no matter whether we believe in Christ or not. Why would otherwise Mormon church sponsor the Prop 8 in California?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[jcd11235 0]

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This thread was initiated on Jehovah.... so initiate one on Allah.

They are the same imaginary entity.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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If a person does not express a belief and faith in God, how do you know you can trust them? How do you know they have a history of doing right things?

Why would someone expressing a belief and faith in god indicate that they are trustworthy or will do the right thing?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[georgerussia 0]

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I do not follow or answer to any of those folks. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ of Nazareth. You can have the same relationship, if you choose. None of my business.

Well, you now have to choose one of those:

1. Either person's belief and faith in God is a basis for you to know that you can trust this person. Then this would mean you would have to trust all those clergy pedophiles as well, which in turn would mean that there is something wrong with your choice of basis.

2. Either person's belief and faith in God is irrelevant to whether you can trust this person. Then it doesn't really matter.

You started with 1) but now it seems you switched to 2). Is it correct?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Will_Evo 0]

I took no offense to the post, but when you say things like
"The ones who give it up, give it up because they grew bitter towards God for showing them their sin in the first place", it makes it seem you were talking about everyone else, and not you.

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Who said God has made a mistake? Im sure the grass would say the same about the lava that flows over it during an eruption because it doesnt know it will bring the grass back even more lush than before, and in nature, we are no different than grass, we just think (awareness) we are.

I did, how else can you explain an all knowing and supposedly loving being, not only allowing, but creating a hell, and again, not only allowing but creating a creation he knew would screw up? This reminds me of a quote I absolutely love.

""We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." -- Gene Roddenberry

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Faith is a very very very powerful thing, but humans are so weak in it, as Jesus says

No I agree faith is a very powerful thing, and a very very dangerous thing. What do you think causes Muslim extremists to kill themselves and others? It was very well put by Sam Harris who said, hope is a intellectual idea, and nothing more, hope rarely prompts a emotional response, but belief, now that is whole different beast. When a person believes something, their emotions become involved, and this is the exact thing that allows for the mentality to run planes into buildings.

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This is assuming you know the end conclusion. All we know is that Jesus saves, and God will appear again, and before that the world will turn to shit... apart from that, we are left to wonder like a child wonders

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe the end result is listed int he bible, god is suppose to come down, gather his people, and then destroy the Earth. Now I go back to a logical means of reasoning, If I was an omniscient being, and knew who what when where and why I want to create a new heaven, I would skip all the extra and just create the end result, an omniscient being would not require a "playing out" of his creation.

I didn't touch on everything, so if you would like a reply on some other points, let me know.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[maadmax 0]

I did, how else can you explain an all knowing and supposedly loving being, not only allowing, but creating a hell, and again, not only allowing but creating a creation he knew would screw up? This reminds me of a quote I absolutely love.

""We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." -- Gene Roddenberry

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You could have a point, if you like God, were all-knowing & all-powerful. As it is, you are probably in the dark like the rest of us.
One thing is for certain, the world is full of faulty humans. And we are either destined to the waste bin of history, or we can strive
for perfection through God and coexist with God in eternity. Excuse me for disagreeing with you, but I bet God has a better handle on
what is best for His creation, no matter how it may seem to us.

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[Will_Evo 0]

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I did, how else can you explain an all knowing and supposedly loving being, not only allowing, but creating a hell, and again, not only allowing but creating a creation he knew would screw up? This reminds me of a quote I absolutely love.

""We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." -- Gene Roddenberry

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You could have a point, if you like God, were all-knowing & all-powerful. As it is, you are probably in the dark like the rest of us.
One thing is for certain, the world is full of faulty humans. And we are either destined to the waste bin of history, or we can strive
for perfection through God and coexist with God in eternity. Excuse me for disagreeing with you, but I bet God has a better handle on
what is best for His creation, no matter how it may seem to us.

...

I agree it is a bit far fecthed to understand what it would mean to be all knowing and all powerful, but I can guess. Don't use the complexity of your god to explain why we can't understand what he is doing. If that was the case, then I would tell you not to worry about gravity, it is much to complex an idea for us to investigate.

using as much perception as humanly possible, we are able to imagine what it would be like to "know everything". I can tell you, I would not make another mistake in my entire life, I would never trip and fall again, I wouldn't jump on the one I knew I would die, wouldn't drive on a day I knew I would crash, I would not invest my time into a relationship I knew would fail anyways etc... So now why can I not apply this logic to god. If I was a god, I would not create humans who I know, will let me down, and put me through all this trouble, just to get where I am going anyways, I would create the end result. It makes perfect and logical sense, to say it is not is hiding behind complexity.

This brings me to another point that Richard Dawkins brings up in his book "The God Delusion". Why if the question of life is so complex, and science can't answer it, is religion automatically given the trump card? Just because a question is so complex, does not mena it cannot be answered by science.

"And whatever else they may say, those scientists who subscribe to the 'separate magisteria' school of thought should concede that a universe with a supernaturally intelligent creator is a very different kind of universe from one without. The difference between the two hypothetical universes could hardly be more fundamental in principle, even if it is not easy to test in practice. And it undermines the complacently seductive dictum that science must be completely silent about religions central existence claim. The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question, even if it not in practice- or not yet- a decided one."

-Evo

Zoo Crew

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[SkyChimp 0]

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This thread was initiated on Jehovah.... so initiate one on Allah.

They are the same imaginary entity.

Not when the thread is only hacking scriptures of the bible and not the Qu'ran.

Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?!

[SkyChimp 0]

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""We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

The bible says God created man with free will. I cannot find where it says humans were created faulty. I know Gene said it but since he's dead can you post a reference to this?

Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?!

[Ron 7]

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You have to open the channel by humbling yourself and inviting Him in. In is with the heart not the mind.

Please answer why God suddenly stopped contacting people like he is claimed to have done in the past.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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No, but the spirit of santa is real.

Maybe, but total belief in him does not make a fat man pop down my chimney with a sack full of toys. Just as I feel total belief in God does not mean there is a heaven.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Here's a question... Why only have a problem with God and not Allah?

Allah = God... Just a different name.

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You engage the bible but not the Qur'an.

Because I have read the Bible, not the Quran. I know sections of the Bible, not the Quran.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Bolas 5]

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I'm not much on this psychoanalytical BS

Then what are you doing in SC??
This is where skydivers get deep argue, bicker, PA, and occasionally debate, where else can you go for coversations like these? But your right, what will be, will be.

Fixed it.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Andy9o8 0]

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""We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

The bible says God created man with free will. I cannot find where it says humans were created faulty. I know Gene said it but since he's dead can you post a reference to this?

Re: "faulty", you're falling into the fallacy of thinking that just because something is not specifically mentioned by its exact name in the bible, that the concept simply does not exist in the bible. I have the same argument with, for example, people who (incorrectly) think that just because the Constitution might not specifically mention "X" by name, that the principle of "X" (for example, "privacy") is not encompassed by the Constitution. In either case, that is incorrect.

That being said, the bible - aside from its myriad translations over the eons - is replete with one vignette after another after another detailing human faults, bad judgment, consequences, and attempts at redemption.

[Bolas 5]

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Religion is man made, and man is evil at its core.

What a negative outlook on yourself and others.

I feel we're for the most part born blank slates with possible predispositions to certain behaviors in our DNA. Environment is the biggest factor.

If someone is told something enough or treated a certain way, they're more likely to imitate it.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[champu 1]

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The problem people have with the concept of an afterlife, imao, stems from examples of people doing things in life that affect others negatively that they wouldn't do if they had no such belief in said afterlife.

Agreed. But also think its a bit deeper than just the promise of an afterlife. Its the miracle of life itself that holds the depth of that concept within the individual

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If all anyone ever did as a result of thinking there was an afterlife was be nice to everyone, no one would bother arguing about it

Surely this is true right?

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If you put yourself in the shoes of someone who believes that what we see around us is all we have, and we owe it to ourselves to make the most of what little that is, you'll see just how screwed up Pascal's Wager really is. The cost of believing and being wrong is written over and over again in history; it's unimaginably large

Im sorry, I dont know pascals wager... sounds like if you believe and your wrong, then you've wasted your life, but if you believe and your right then your going to heaven? Help me out. If thats what it is, then I must say philosophy class sounds like it is getting much more boring to the ever evolving wonder in the human imagination.

Pascal's wager was an acknowledgement that reason couldn't conclude whether or not God exists and an attempt to determine what a person should believe given that.

It asserts that if you believe and you're correct you go to heaven (an infinite gain) and if you don't believe and you're wrong you suffer for eternity (an infinite loss.) It then also asserts that there is nothing significant to be gained or lost in believing or not believing if there is no God.

No one is arguing that if you believe and you're wrong that you're wasted your life. I'm arguing that people as a whole, as a result of believing, have wasted millions of lives through wars and repression of human rights. This is hardly insignificant.

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Im afraid you greately underestimate the power in Gods grace. God is beyond the mind, he lives in the heart. Tell someone you love them mind to mind, or, show them you love them heart to heart. The heart is the greatest tresure chest... fill it, and no matter what happens in life, you will keep that treasure always.

But I would agree with you if my faith we founded merely on tradition, oppression, rituals ect... Jesus came to say that those are not the ways to God, that faith is the only way. So, if someone truly enjoys all the rituals ect.. becasue of their faith, then what are they missing out on? Perhaps it is us who is missing out? But, if someone doesnt enjoy the rituals, and does them just for favor from God, then this goes against the message of the Gospel, and in that case you would be right.

Consider a bhuddist monk. They attempt to live extrememly humbly, and at one with life, and love, and in nature ect... thats what gives them enjoyment, pleasure, peace and enlightenment. they dont do that because they think they are going to heaven, they feel as if earth can be heaven, and so do I. Inviting God into your life is far from missing out, in fact, for me there was so much that I found to gain rather than desire to give up. Is this a fair observation to your original post?

As I wrote above, if all anyone ever did as a result of thinking there was an afterlife (or, less specifically, believing in a god) was be nice to everyone, no one would bother arguing about it. I'm not asking you to answer for those who have done terrible things in the name of their god, I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that such atrocities are a byproduct of belief in general.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Well I do disagree with that and I am quite sane.

You cannot estimate your own sanity :) Like one shrink patient said, its everyone else around him who are blind and insane - don't they see he is Napoleon Bonapart ready to bring a New World Order? Same with inmates, who mostly believe they're innocent. Same as alien abduction "victims" who are pretty much sure that they're the only sane people there, and if you cannot believe their true stories about how aliens kidnapped them and forced to have sex with other aliens, this is because you are blind and not yet ready to accept the truth. And you're not really different from them - pretty much the same "truth", which only becomes true for those who "accept" it - pretty ill statement from any logical point of view.

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Also, these kind of statements are exactly what I am talking about. I am not telling you that you are insane because you don't believe. That would be wrong just as it is wrong to tell me or other Christians that they are insane because they have faith and see the Bible as a guide full of truth.

Well, this would be outright lie. Even between Christians there are strong disagreements regarding what some verses in the Bible really mean, and therefore what is allowed, what should be done and what should not. A "guide" which everyone can interpret in a different way is not really a guide at all, so nobody sees the bible as a guide. They see their interpretation of the bible as a guide.

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It's a little ironic that you do not like Christians who have that emotional fire to tell people about the Lord when it seems you have that same kind of emotional fire to tell those of us who believe in God or the Bible that we are wrong or insane.

I don't care about your or other Christians emotional fire if it's done in a proper place, like this forum or your church. However I'm not going to your house to tell you the God does not exist, and I'm not asking the politicians to make prayers illegal everywhere and for everyone. And this is where Christians' "emotional fire" backfires.

There are still remedies, of course - the courts often struck down those stupid small-town laws, and having a large "Jesus-free home" sign on my front door seems to work well to distract everyone who feels the emotional need to tell me more about their lord and savior. But it takes extra time and effort, just because Christians cannot contain themselves.

You are more crazy about your "faith" and yes I did just call it that, then most Christians I know. I'm sorry you do not like free speech. Let me be clear about one thing. I am not forcing God to anyone here... I do not do that. If you ask I will tell you but I don't get fired up about it anymore. I've grown out of that phase of life. I don't care that you don't believe just as much as you don't care what I believe. Some of what you say is just really ironic.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[billvon 2,454]

>" those scientists who subscribe to the 'separate magisteria' school
>of thought should concede that a universe with a supernaturally
>intelligent creator is a very different kind of universe from one without."

That's a pretty huge assumption. A universe with a God who does not meddle in physical laws is identical to a universe without a God. (Indeed, atheists might claim that they are in fact the same thing.)

[maadmax 0]

--I agree it is a bit far fecthed to understand what it would mean to be all knowing and all powerful, but I can guess. Don't use the complexity of your god to explain why we can't understand what he is doing. If that was the case, then I would tell you not to worry about gravity, it is much to complex an idea for us to investigate.


I will not hide behind complexity as my defense, but I will plead ignorance to the big comprehensive picture of reality. All I can possibly know now is miniscule. But the Bible says that someday we will know in full. And like the force generated by gravity, the force emanating from God is known by its characteristics.

[lurch 0]

"I say Great!!!! That is wonderful, and you are to be admired and envied. Someday when there is an accounting of what you did with your life, you will be able to present a convincing defense. Other people, myself included, have failed to meet Gods standard of perfection."

You are not making sense. You say "when there is an accounting" as if it were a cold hard real fact that some variant on the notion of "god" will be forcing me to stand trial and answer for my actions in life as if I had committed some crime and must defend myself against judgement by some notion of a "standard of perfection". There is also an undertone of sarcasm in your reply that seems to imply that you believe I'm not "really" happy and functional by your god's standard specifically because your god is left out.

I will be presenting no "convincing defense" because I will not be judged by any mystical imaginary entities...neither your god nor anyone else's. My existence is self-justified and needs no defense. I exist to improve my own life and the lives of those I love and care about (Friends and family). Any crimes I may commit, I have to live with, which is reason enough not to commit any that I can avoid. -I- am the sole true judge of me, taking full responsibility for my choices and actions and I choose to judge harshly and hold myself to a high standard of civilization and behavior. I live the best life I can, voluntarily. Not under duress, judgement or threat of punishment.
You may find this hard to wrap your head around but it is possible to have a fully functional conscience and sense of responsibility and morality even with no threat of judgement or punishment hanging over one's head.
Some of us try to be good people not because someone commanded it or threatened us with judgement or punishment, but because we freely CHOOSE to be.

The flip side is that I have no expectation of reward after, either. Every good deed I ever do doesn't add up in some holy bank account to be used to defend myself in some theological court of law. It is energy cast into the void. I'm ok with that too. So long as it helped someone, caused a smile, improved something while it was being cast into the void, it wasn't wasted. I'm philosophically hedonistic that way. Trying hard just to be a good person regardless of the outcome is its own reward. It is the way of life of a free man, and I will take it.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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t was very well put by Sam Harris who said, hope is a intellectual idea, and nothing more, hope rarely prompts a emotional response

You are receiving your revelations from the knowledge of the created, rather than the wisdom of the creator. What makes us different than nature? If we can create things, and we are apart of nature, then it would seem reasonable to assume that nature has creative wisdom as well. But as it is with people who cant believe in God, this all sounds incredibly foolish to you im sure. Its just not fair to others who are curious about Jesus to come across someone who discredits him even more becasue "he use to be a Christian", and here are the reasons Im not anymore...

Our bodies were made to build, but its our minds that have the power. We dont even use the majority of that power, and I believe it is because we are still putting walls around faith. Your example of someone doing negative things with faith should give you reason to believe it is possible to do great and good things with it as well.

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""We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." -- Gene Roddenberry

Who? I mean, who are we to question what gives us life? We all need to remember that we are only alive right now because of life. Life doesnt owe us any explanation or revelation at all, it doesnt even owe us time. Why do we think it does? Im sure many of the things believers say sounds crazy and foolish to non-believers, but some of the things you guys say also sounds just as foolish to us. Thats a very interesting dynamic difference in the "faulty design" of the human mind. That some see absolute perfection in God, and others cannot. Seems to me that you would need both to recognize the truth.

"We didn't start the fire"