Ever hear the right say: Well GHWB, now this is your economy?

[Lucky... 0]

We all know that 15 minutes after Obama took office, it was his ecconomy. Well, the turd Reagan handed GHWB was bad, not near as bad as now, but it was a couple years out of a recession, so after it tanked did people blame GHWB? I don't redcall it, I just recall GHWB getting elected under the promise of no new taxes, but never: It's your economy now. Same with Clinton, since the economy was flourishing shortly after Clinton took office, no one form the right said: It's your economy now.

Why do people say this horrific mess is Obama's? That question is somewhat rhetorical, but I ask it looking for a contrast from previous presidents who have receieved a bad economy and weren't so ridiculed.

[kelpdiver 2]

This was nearly incomprehensible, but stabbing at it:

yes, Bush was blamed in 1992 for the economy and Clinton won in large part because of it. Bush was the guy who was amazed by the price scanner at the grocery store.

[Amazon 7]

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This was nearly incomprehensible, but stabbing at it:

yes, Bush was blamed in 1992 for the economy and Clinton won in large part because of it. Bush was the guy who was amazed by the price scanner at the grocery store.

In 1992 Bush had been in charge of the Voodoo doodoo for 4 years. To be honest.. though he was just following Reagan who blew money like no other president had by that time. George the First had been right in his campaign back in 1980... but He and his son have followed it with glee ever since. It has been very very good for their family fortune... and the fortunes of their friends.

[Lucky... 0]

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This was nearly incomprehensible, but stabbing at it:

yes, Bush was blamed in 1992 for the economy and Clinton won in large part because of it. Bush was the guy who was amazed by the price scanner at the grocery store.

Well, I think Bush was held over the coals by his own for raising taxes. The ignorant American wasn't able to understand that Reagan cut taxes from:

- 70% - 50%
- 50% - 38%
- 38% - 28%

So where else could he go with them, esp in the era of the Gulf War? I think to typical dumb American blamed Bush minute tax increase, 28% - 31% and the luxury tax, etc was the demon for the bad economy, when it was the Reagan cuts over the 8 years before him. He inherited Reagan's mess and lost for it, really unfair.

Love how you dislike the content, so it's now incomprehensible. Typical.

[Lucky... 0]

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In 1992 Bush had been in charge of the Voodoo doodoo for 4 years.

Actually Jan 93 would be 4 years, but more importantly, he tried to change direction of fascist Ronnie. He cut the military and raised taxed slightly, so he went the other way with it. Albeit in small ways, for a Republcian he was honerable and the first since Eisenhow to not be a coward.

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To be honest.. though he was just following Reagan who blew money like no other president had by that time.

Yea but he tried to change and did a little at the cost of his presidencey.

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George the First had been right in his campaign back in 1980... but He and his son have followed it with glee ever since.

I just disagree. Clinton and GHWB were he same president; Reagan and GWb were the same.

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It has been very very good for their family fortune... and the fortunes of their friends.

Now that's all true. I bet if you were close to GHWB he would tell you how ashamed he is of his dipshit kid.

[kelpdiver 2]

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In 1992 Bush had been in charge of the Voodoo doodoo for 4 years.

Actually Jan 93 would be 4 years, but more importantly, he tried to change direction of fascist Ronnie. He cut the military and raised taxed slightly, so he went the other way with it. Albeit in small ways, for a Republcian he was honerable and the first since Eisenhow to not be a coward.

He may (or may not) have cut the military as part of the peace dividend from the end of the Cold War, but he presided over a continuous increase in the deficit, so let's not break out the love fest for his fiscal prowess.

More facts, fewer run on sentences, please.

[d16842 0]

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We all know that 15 minutes after Obama took office, it was his ecconomy. Well, the turd Reagan handed GHWB was bad, not near as bad as now, but it was a couple years out of a recession, so after it tanked did people blame GHWB? I don't redcall it, I just recall GHWB getting elected under the promise of no new taxes, but never: It's your economy now. Same with Clinton, since the economy was flourishing shortly after Clinton took office, no one form the right said: It's your economy now.

Why do people say this horrific mess is Obama's? That question is somewhat rhetorical, but I ask it looking for a contrast from previous presidents who have receieved a bad economy and weren't so ridiculed.

Personally, I don't think a President is the major driver of the economy, good or bad. I don't give Reagan most of the credit, or Bush most of the blame.

Our present financial mess was initiated by the housing mess. And much of it was caused by a handful of Democrats in the House and Senate, putting absurd rules in place through Fredie Mac and Ginnie May, including no down payments, loans to anyone without credit checks or the ability to repay, allowing interest only or balloon payment mortgages, etc. And I don't let Republicans off the hook, as they sat on the same committees, in fact they led them. So long as they got their pork projects, anything the Dems wanted to add so that everyone could have a house they could not afford was fine with them.

But mainly I believe the American economic troubles were driven by a public that wanted it all, the big house they could not afford, the new car, make that multiple cars, the boat and RV, the $100K in credit card debt, and a negative savings rate. We do want it all and we want it now. In 1955 the typical new home was 1,100 square feet, with the family having more than three kids. They saved up until they had a 20% or greater down payment. In recent years, every newly wed young couple I knew was buying a 3,000 square foot house, 100% financed, and then they financed the furniture to go in it. And the cruise, not to mention the $50K wedding.

Add to that American company management that outsourced most of its manufacturing. GE and Wallmart literally created China as a major manufacturing nation. Those who said we could have a "service economy" and do well on it were nuts.

The prime way to create wealth is to turn raw materials into something valuable. We used to do a lot of that. Today we have largely service industries that merely spread existing wealth around. Sooner or later you run out of national accumulated wealth to spread around.

It is quite the mess.

Tom B

[Ron 7]

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Ever hear the right say: Well GHWB, now this is your economy?

Yes and we have heard the left say it as well.

""It's the economy, stupid" was a phrase in American politics widely used during Bill Clinton's successful 1992 presidential campaign against George H.W. Bush. For a time, Bush was considered unbeatable because of foreign policy developments such as the end of the Cold War and the Persian Gulf War. The phrase, coined by Clinton campaign strategist James Carville, refers to the notion that Clinton was a better choice because Bush had not adequately addressed the economy, which had recently undergone a recession."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[zoobrothertom 5]

Be careful, most skydivers don't usually have the attention span for rational thought.

____________________________________
I'm back in the USA!!

[Lucky... 0]

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He may (or may not) have cut the military as part of the peace dividend from the end of the Cold War,...

I'm not going to nitpick his motives, he did well with the mess he got from FR. And Clinton could say damned the other side and make radical changes, GHWB had to tip-toe, as it was his predecessor he was unfucking. GHWB was 2 things fascist Ronnie (FR) wasn't:

- A proud military member who was willing and did fight for his country

- Sane

So I don't think GHWB thought the Russians were out to get us as the delluded, senile one, FR. So I think GHWB would have scaled back anyway. Besides, he could have kept the mess going under the guise of another enemy lurking out there. After all, the world is full of combative enemies that all they do is to seek out ways to destroy the US, right? I think it's criminal not to spend twice the already 8 times that of #2 . Dudee, he did the right thing under the scrutiny and against the wishes of the paranoid nuts party, quit questioning his motives.

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...but he presided over a continuous increase in the deficit, so let's not break out the love fest for his fiscal prowess.

He treid to be a faithful Republican as the people who put him there wished and keep taxes low. That was a failed idea so around teh time he enterd the Gulf War he had to raise taxes along with his spending cuts. He was a model president under the worst of circumstances:

- Following an extremely popular president that is now being discovered as a spendy POS

- Being an incumbent (party) and having to change policy from the previous

- Having to cut the military

- Having to raise taxes, albeit not that much

- Enjoying a recession as gifted from the previous pres

- Inheriting a bad economy

- Facing a war in the ME - handling it impecably


So to consider the, 'totality of the circumstances' I would give him a solid B if not an A-.

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More facts, fewer run on sentences, please.

More substance, less rhetoric, please.

[Lucky... 0]

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Personally, I don't think a President is the major driver of the economy, good or bad. I don't give Reagan most of the credit, or Bush most of the blame.

Love how you say/infer Reagan-credit / Bush-blame. You could have stated it the other way.

As for any pres being tHE major driver of the economy,of course they are. When I was in high school that was the chant, but please, tell me:

- Who sends the initial proposal for the annual budget to congress?

- Who has veto power to nix out 535 members of congress in 1 strike of a pen?

- Who has unilatteral war powers, sending troops and billions of dollars away?

- Who signs tax laws?

Other than veto overrides, the president IS THE ULTIMATE LEGISLATOR.

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Our present financial mess was initiated by the housing mess. And much of it was caused by a handful of Democrats in the House and Senate, putting absurd rules in place through Fredie Mac and Ginnie May, including no down payments, loans to anyone without credit checks or the ability to repay, allowing interest only or balloon payment mortgages, etc.

Actually, no. The low interest rates were the ultimate catalyst and cause of this mess. Are you talking about Gramm, Leach, Bliliey?

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And I don't let Republicans off the hook, as they sat on the same committees, in fact they led them. So long as they got their pork projects, anything the Dems wanted to add so that everyone could have a house they could not afford was fine with them.

Again, which laws/acts, etc?

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But mainly I believe the American economic troubles were driven by a public that wanted it all, the big house they could not afford, the new car, make that multiple cars, the boat and RV, the $100K in credit card debt, and a negative savings rate.

Since, as a whole, we have shown we cannot be responsible on our own, the gov needs to regulate. Furtermore, cutting teh int rates that low that long is the primary cause and catalyst, GLB was just an accellerator. W/o GLB and with bargain basement int rates we would still have had this mess.

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We do want it all and we want it now. In 1955 the typical new home was 1,100 square feet, with the family having more than three kids. They saved up until they had a 20% or greater down payment. In recent years, every newly wed young couple I knew was buying a 3,000 square foot house, 100% financed, and then they financed the furniture to go in it. And the cruise, not to mention the $50K wedding.

No arg there, but since we can't/won't act responsibly we need the gov to nanny us.

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Add to that American company management that outsourced most of its manufacturing. GE and Wallmart literally created China as a major manufacturing nation. Those who said we could have a "service economy" and do well on it were nuts.

Agreed. That's why the destruction of our dollar will be just what the doctor ordered. We make good stuff and if our dollar just crashes our goods will be in huge demand around the world, which is why Chian is tasked with artifically propping the USD up.

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The prime way to create wealth is to turn raw materials into something valuable. We used to do a lot of that. Today we have largely service industries that merely spread existing wealth around. Sooner or later you run out of national accumulated wealth to spread around.

Yep and then your currency crashes - bout where we are now.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

From your favorite source, Wikipedia, on Reagan's military service:

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Military service
After completing fourteen home-study Army Extension Courses, Reagan enlisted in the Army Enlisted Reserve[26] on April 29, 1937, as a private assigned to Troop B, 322nd Cavalry at Des Moines, Iowa.[27] He was appointed Second Lieutenant in the Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry on May 25, 1937, and on June 18 was assigned to the 323rd Cavalry.[28] His service number was 0 357 403.

Reagan was ordered to active duty for the first time on April 18, 1942. Due to his nearsightedness, he was classified for limited service only, which excluded him from serving overseas.[29] His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason, California, as a liaison officer of the Port and Transportation Office.[30] Upon the approval of the Army Air Force (AAF), he applied for a transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF on May 15, 1942, and was assigned to AAF Public Relations and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit (officially, the "18th AAF Base Unit") in Culver City, California.[30] On January 14, 1943 he was promoted to First Lieutenant and was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of This Is The Army at Burbank, California.[30] He returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit after completing this duty and was promoted to Captain on July 22, 1943.[27]

In January 1944, Captain Reagan was ordered to temporary duty in New York City to participate in the opening of the sixth War Loan Drive. He was re-assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit on November 14, 1944, where he remained until the end of World War II.[27] He was recommended for promotion to Major on February 2, 1945, but this recommendation was disapproved on July 17 of that year.[31] He returned to Fort MacArthur, California, where he was separated from active duty on December 9, 1945.[31] By the end of the war, his units had produced some 400 training films for the AAF.[27]

Maybe you should actually investigate a person's background before accusing them of not being willing to fight for his country. I find it surprising that even you would stoop so low as to say someone was unwilling to fight for their country when that person had joined the reserves during peacetime, reported for duty when drafted and, by no fault of his own will, was relegated to stateside duty only. Never forget that for every soldier who fought overseas during WWII, there were several people stateside doing important work to help that soldier perform his best.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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Yes and we have heard the left say it as well.

Perhaps because he succeeded FR and was part of the admin that sent us down teh toilet, but still not his personal doing.

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""It's the economy, stupid" was a phrase in American politics widely used during Bill Clinton's successful 1992 presidential campaign against George H.W. Bush. For a time, Bush was considered unbeatable because of foreign policy developments such as the end of the Cold War and the Persian Gulf War. The phrase, coined by Clinton campaign strategist James Carville, refers to the notion that Clinton was a better choice because Bush had not adequately addressed the economy, which had recently undergone a recession."

Yes, I knew that factoid, Carville's kind of a freak, but he's great. Again, the operative word you used is, 'politics.' Yes, you want to blame the other side just like FR and his, "There you go again" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_you_go_again_(Reagan) in reference to Carter's attack on Reagan's Medicare record (not to shining). Then Reagan went on to spend like no one else.

FDR's VP Garner called Hoover a Socialist after Hoover signed the Revenue Act of 1932, running teh top bracket up 260%. Of course then FDR's admin went on to become the biggest socialists of all time in the US.

And then there was, "Read my lips."

So you want to hang your hat on campaign slogans as tho they're meaningful? Good luck with yourself.

But to address the economy under GHWB, he inherited a mess that was just waiting to pop. The debt had increased so much in such a short time in time of peace. Some want to call the Cold War, wartime. This is ridiculous and to say that therefore FR couldn't help but to overspedn for this pseudo-war, gee, the debt fell during a couple years under Eisenhower and he had the Korean War to contend with, the debt fell in 1969 during the heat of the VN War and both of these times were also under the period of the Cold War, so WTF?

Here's one explanation: The top tax rate under Eisenhower was 91%, in 1969 I think it was in teh 70's% and during the Great Fasist Pig Ronnie it went from 70% to 50% to 38% to 28%. Then this mess of shit was handed off to GHWB and he had to be a good Republican bitch and promise to keep taxes low in the midst of alarming peacetime debt increase in order to get elected. Basically, FR maxed out a stack of credit cards and handed them to GHWB on the way out. It's a delluded fantasy to think you can take a tax rate that has worked since 1932 and in 1980 cut it form 70% to 28% and continue the spending mess. So was FR delluded? Of course.

- Thought the USSR wanted to start a fight with us just as they were dedicating a lot of their arms to AFG. Not to mention we were feeding them.

- Thought cutting taxes and grossly overspending would be possible w/o trashing the economy.

So when you look at a president's record, you have to look at what they inherited, what they endured and what they left. Examine the processes and the intent for which they meant and measure their accomplishments.

GHWB:

- Inherited a mess by way of debt, deficit, military, tax rate way too low, etc.

- Had to endure the Gulf War and did so fantastically

- Raised taxes in disobedience of his own party to control the debt

- Cut teh military in disobedience of his own party to control the debt


I think he did well.

[Lucky... 0]

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Be careful, most skydivers don't usually have the attention span for rational thought.

Apparently you don't or you would add something constructive.

[Gawain 0]

The two most used words to come out of President Obama's mouth are: "Unprecedented" and "Inherited".

It has been a non-stop blame game for 10 months on the part of the current administration.

As for President GHW Bush, when he broke his promise on taxes, the "right" DID speak in 1992.

Your assessment in one of your follow-on posts I don't find all that disagreeable. President GHW Bush was definitely not a coward, as most of those from the "Greatest Generation" are not, I suspect (none of the ones I've met anyway).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Lucky... 0]

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Maybe you should actually investigate a person's background before accusing them of not being willing to fight for his country.

Child, this is shit I know and have cited before. As a military vet that I am and YOU'RE NOT, I know that guard and reserve military members get inducted and sent to basic just like any full-time military member. They get physicals just like the reguar military members and I find it BS to think he made it past those and was allowed into reserve military duty, but not to the war. We were so hard-up for military guys we had established the draft > 6 moths before Coward Ronnie weaseled his way out goin gto fight with the men, rather cower with the bitches in Hollywood. Which also makes me wonder how he turned on them after the war, acting as tho he was the only real American. How dumb the electorate to think FR was true-blue, he was FR yellow.

We were taking anyone and everyone in 1942, a little eye problem wouldn't be a deal-breaker. Oh, and I always saw him wearing glasses during an after politics too. I know he wore contacts, as the arrogant coward he was, but his eyes were not that bad. I guess you bought all the BS about GWB and his cowardly escape from VN and his AWOL from the guard too, huh?

You claim to have voted for Obama, yet all you do is to defend Republicans; do you think anyone here is dumb, naive, gullable enough to buy that? I don't.

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I find it surprising that even you would stoop so low as to say someone was unwilling to fight for their country when that person had joined the reserves during peacetime, reported for duty when drafted and, by no fault of his own will, was relegated to stateside duty only.

I find it believable that a person such as you, a person w/o military service, would defend a WWII dodger like Reagan.

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Never forget that for every soldier who fought overseas during WWII, there were several people stateside doing important work to help that soldier perform his best.

Right and making training movies, fucking LA beotches was his order, what a dedicated sacrificing man .

Here's a little hint: He used his Hollywood connections to avoid going to fight with the men.

[Gawain 0]

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As a military vet that I am

...with FULL VA BENEFITS...don't forget that.

This is why I call you out. I have never met a vet that so besmirched another's service while touting his/her own service. I have met my share of absolute sh*t-bags, and felt their service was less than honorable, but they served. Even I give them that.

President Reagan volunteered. You sh*t on him for that?! Do you sh*t on President Carter's service? What about President GW Bush's? What about Gov. Pete Wilson?

You know, by your logic, most members of the Army and Marine Corps could use the same argument on those in the Air Force and some in the Navy. Instead, we banter in friendly inter-branch ribbing. You choose to take it to a whole new level that I refuse to believe any vet that served honorably would do.

I pray that you are only being a poseur, because your venomous disregard for your fellow brothers in arms is a discredit to us all.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Belgian_Draft 0]

So much for your wanting constructive and civil discussions.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

Aw, you don't count, he said you obviously weren't a vet, remember?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[airdvr 200]

He's a wannabe. Not the vet he claims to be. Don't know if he's ever left an airplane through anything other than a covered ramp. Is Ted Kuzinski still alive?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Gawain 0]

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Aw, you don't count, he said you obviously weren't a vet, remember?

He didn't say that to me...but if he had, that would've been the icing on the cake...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mnealtx 0]

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Quote

Aw, you don't count, he said you obviously weren't a vet, remember?

He didn't say that to me...but if he had, that would've been the icing on the cake...

Oh, yeah he did... in the healthcare bill thread, after you asked him about his 'full VA benefits'.

I was going to mention it to him that he didn't know who he was talking about, but I already had Ian up my ass about defending another vet, so I held off.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[d16842 0]

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As for any pres being tHE major driver of the economy,of course they are. When I was in high school that was the chant, but please, tell me:

- Who sends the initial proposal for the annual budget to congress?

- Who has veto power to nix out 535 members of congress in 1 strike of a pen?

- Who has unilatteral war powers, sending troops and billions of dollars away?

- Who signs tax laws?

Other than veto overrides, the president IS THE ULTIMATE LEGISLATOR.

Well then I defer to your superior powers. This must be Obama's economy after all.

Yes the president makes a budget request, which Congress ignores and puts in whatever they want.

Yes, the president has veto authority. Congress got smart and now send an omnibus bill, generally late, and if the president vetos it he shuts down the government and makes one hell of a mess. Give him a line item veto, and I will grant that one.

The President doesn't have unilateral war powers. Congress must fund it. Every year. And Congress has funded both wars all the way through.

Tax laws he signs indeed, the ones congress gives him. Did Congress give Bush the tax laws he wanted? No.

Tom B

[Gawain 0]

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Aw, you don't count, he said you obviously weren't a vet, remember?

He didn't say that to me...but if he had, that would've been the icing on the cake...

Oh, yeah he did... in the healthcare bill thread, after you asked him about his 'full VA benefits'.

I was going to mention it to him that he didn't know who he was talking about, but I already had Ian up my ass about defending another vet, so I held off.

You're right!! How did I miss that? That's funny stuff right there!

If Ian is still up there, can I tickle his feet?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Aw, you don't count, he said you obviously weren't a vet, remember?

He didn't say that to me...but if he had, that would've been the icing on the cake...

Oh, yeah he did... in the healthcare bill thread, after you asked him about his 'full VA benefits'.

I was going to mention it to him that he didn't know who he was talking about, but I already had Ian up my ass about defending another vet, so I held off.

You're right!! How did I miss that? That's funny stuff right there!

If Ian is still up there, can I tickle his feet?

I figured you'd get a kick out of it. I read it and thought "oh FUCK no he didn't just say that!!!"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706