Gates/Crowley: Who was more at fault?

[likearock 1]

CNN overview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np0hMW4yENQ
Police report: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html
Interview with other arresting officer who is black: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYR4HQGnMgQ

My take:

First, while racial profiling is definitely a real problem in the country, this incident was just as definitely not an example of it. The police were responding to a report from a neighbor - they would have acted identically had the people involved been white.

It sounds like from the very beginning of the encounter, Gates was treating it as a racist act when the police were just doing their job. Gates was abusive, even bringing Crowley's mother into the mix. Furthermore, he wasn't even cooperative with the simple request to establish his claim of residency - he only provided a Harvard ID with no address when a driver's license would have settled the matter right away.

So why was he arrested? In order for police to function effectively, they must be afforded a modicum of respect from the public, especially when they are just doing their job. If they happen to be confronted with someone who is as abusive and disrespectful as Gates was, it's perfectly proper to arrest him for disorderly conduct.

[Andy9o8 0]

Let's get away from "excusable", and focus more on "explainable". I'll try to explain Gates's conduct; and I'll leave it to the ethicists to decide the rest.

I'm not black, but at age 50 and having worked in criminal justice, criminal law and social services in several urban and suburban jurisdictions, I have whatever life experience and related education that I have. And I've come to understand that those who are not black in America cannot begin to fathom the cumulative psychological effect of a lifetime of getting "The Look" and/or "The Attitude" (i.e., suspicion) from white people every time you walk down the street in a mostly-white neighborhood, or you're walking around in a store, or from cops whenever you're driving a car, etc. - and you know damned well that if you were white, you wouldn't be getting The Look or The Attitude.

One can't prove it, of course, but if Gates and his driver were white, it's probably less likely that the neighbor would have called the police. And so Gates, with his own life's experience (he's old enough to remember the pre-civil rights days), and with a lifetime of feeling first hand the resentment from getting The Look and The Attitude from people simply because he's black, reacted with outrage at being suspected of committing a crime at his own doorstep, and decided to make a stand on principle - and then at that point, his temper simply took over. Yes, he could have easily just produced his ID and controlled his language - he just felt that he was damned if he ought to, just because some white neighbor thought he was a Scary Negro.

Recently, I was out jogging before dawn. As I trotted up my driveway at the end of my run, a cop drove up and made me produce my ID. Did that anger me at all? No (and I cooperated without a peep). But if I was a 58 year old highly-accomplished black man at my own doorstep, it might have.

It's hard to understand another man's heart if you've never walked in his shoes.

[rehmwa 2]

Hard to tell without both sides of the story.

Extreme assumptions:

1 - Gate is a black, elite, acedemian with a big chip on his shoulder and takes everything from a racial stance and wants to jump on anyone for any excuse.

vs

2 - Some cop has his own chip on his shoulder and will pick on someone just because of race.

vs, more generically

3 - any situation where a cop and a civilian get into an argument - the civilian is out of his comfort zone and will strike out for any reason vs a cop who does this all the time.

I don't know. Don't care. It's a whole lot of whining. Until I hear otherwise, I'd lean toward the cop being in control because he's trained in these situations and the civilian isn't. I assume #3 and take the whole racial thing out of it and just consider who will be most stressed in the situation and assume they screwed up.

But it doesn't matter, hope fully both stories will come out and people can pick for themselves - and it'll have ZERO bearing on the real results since we don't vote on this stuff in real life.

I'm just disappointed in all the people jumping to conclusions without all the evidence. The pres really screwed that one up too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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he just felt that he was damned if he ought to, just because some white neighbor thought he was a Scary Negro

That's a pretty crappy and racist assumption about the neighbor. The neighbor called the cops because some people were breaking into the house.

sounds like the neighbor is a very good person and did the best out of all of them

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

Gates sounds like someone that should be on "The Best Of Jerry Springer" if not "Cops" his demeanor and self control were not that of ANY one of ANY race that I would want in charge of teaching America's youth.

You say you worked in criminal justice, right?

I haven't, BUT even I know that a policeman cannot do his job properly if he cannot ascertain the identity of the person in question.

It is possible that his attitude and aggressiveness were born out of concern for his family because the facilitator of the home invasion was holding them hostage.

If that was the case, and Crowley left and the family was injured, Crowley would have been guilty of negligence.

It seems entirely too likely that in ANY given situation, if the "oppressed and Angry black man" get upset and throws a fit, there is no right answer and no way to solve the issue without deriliction of duty, or simply ignoring protical.

That being said, what I am gathering from your post, the underlying thought and belief, is that you understand why there should be two separate sets of guidelines for minority interactions and situations.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[TrophyHusband 0]

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[That's a pretty crappy and racist assumption about the neighbor. The neighbor called the cops because some people were breaking into the house.

sounds like the neighbor is a very good person and did the best out of all of them

something i've been wondering about is why the neighbor didn't recognize gates. in every place i've ever lived, i've been able to recognize my neighbors fairly quickly. my hypotheses is that gates is a fisrt class asshole and his neighbor thought that calling the police when he broke into his own house would be a good way to fuck with him.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[turtlespeed 212]

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[That's a pretty crappy and racist assumption about the neighbor. The neighbor called the cops because some people were breaking into the house.

sounds like the neighbor is a very good person and did the best out of all of them

something i've been wondering about is why the neighbor didn't recognize gates. in every place i've ever lived, i've been able to recognize my neighbors fairly quickly. my hypotheses is that gates is a fisrt class asshole and his neighbor thought that calling the police when he broke into his own house would be a good way to fuck with him.

1) If true - It worked.
2) Maybe the neibor doesn't see so good, and didn't recognize him.
3) Gates engineered the situation himself. (I certainly wouldn't put it past him.) Unfortunately, it sounds to me like this scenario is the most likely, although it is only by miniscule amounts, as the #1 listed above seems almost as likely, given the show of his personality.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 0]

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even I know that a policeman cannot do his job properly if he cannot ascertain the identity of the person in question.

Of course that's correct; I never stated otherwise.

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what I am gathering from your post, the underlying thought and belief, is that you understand why there should be two separate sets of guidelines for minority interactions and situations.

Then you need to re-read my post. I made it clear that my intent was to simply explain and comprehend Gates's state of mind and emotion, not to excuse his judgment and apparent loss of temper.

[Andy9o8 0]

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[That's a pretty crappy and racist assumption about the neighbor. The neighbor called the cops because some people were breaking into the house.

sounds like the neighbor is a very good person and did the best out of all of them

something i've been wondering about is why the neighbor didn't recognize gates. in every place i've ever lived, i've been able to recognize my neighbors fairly quickly. my hypotheses is that gates is a fisrt class asshole and his neighbor thought that calling the police when he broke into his own house would be a good way to fuck with him.

Or maybe the neighbor just saw 2 guys from behind trying to jimmy the door, and grabbed the phone. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most sensible.

[TrophyHusband 0]

that's probably the most likele scenerio, but from what i've seen of gates, and my experiences with people who carry the racial chip on their shoulder, my hypothesis certainly isn't a stretch.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[JohnRich 4]

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Or maybe the neighbor just saw 2 guys from behind trying to jimmy the door, and grabbed the phone. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most sensible.

Ding ding ding!

News story, from the neighbor:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/07/27/gates_caller_didnt_cite_race_police_say/

[TrophyHusband 0]

if she couldn't tell what race they were, then that blows my hypothesis out of the water. i still belive gates is an asshole though.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Andy9o8 0]

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people who carry the racial chip on their shoulder,

I understand what you're referring to; but as I discuss in my post #2, I urge you not to use that term too dismissively when applied to someone like Gates.

I know a lot of well-educated black people, some of whom are close friends. They generally don't display a "chip on their shoulder". But on a few occasions, I have seen the effects of it getting triggered in a couple of them, for what they perceived to be racial injustices done to them, or one of their kids. And they were damned if they were going to back down from taking a stand. Combine that with a flash of temper and... well, you have Prof. Gates.

[TomAiello 25]

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if she couldn't tell what race they were, then that blows my hypothesis out of the water. i still belive gates is an asshole though.

There's no way of really knowing that without meeting the guy.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andy9o8 0]

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if she couldn't tell what race they were, then that blows my hypothesis out of the water. i still belive gates is an asshole though.

There's no way of really knowing that without meeting the guy.

Agreed. The man was confronted inside his own home, and then he plain lost his temper. Who has never lost his temper? Who has never acted like an asshole when doing so? When Christ lost his temper at the moneylenders in the temple, some of them probably said "Gee, what an asshole." And that was Christ, mind you.

[JohnRich 4]

Audio of the 911 call is out in the TV news. Totally clears the neighbor of any racial bias. She didn't even mention race - just that two men were pushing in the front door with their shoulders. The 911 operator asked for their race, and she said she thought one was hispanic, and didn't know the other one. She's completely cleared of any wrongdoing in instigating this incident. She was just a concerned neighbor reporting suspicious activity. We should all be so lucky as to have women like this in our communities.

Now let's hear the radio audio from the police officer.

Oh, and how about you journalists digging up some audio from some of Gates' speeches. You managed to find some bad stuff on Obama's Rev. Wright doing that. Maybe you'll find something similar with Prof. Gates too. If you can quit pointing the finger at everyone else long enough to look.

[rushmc 18]

I waited to vote until more info came out. Gates (and his savior Obama) are totally in the wrong.


Gates is a racists. Read his past comments and listen to his interviews. In the end, he is a typical modern day prof at a college.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[bigbearfng 16]

My only criticism of Crowley is he used poor tactics....if Gates was a bad guy with a partner in the res Crowley as an initial responding single man unit may well have been toast.
Personally.....(having worked patrol as a single man unit with some ah shit I fucked up tactics on that one and I'm really lucky to be alive moments)

Report of Burg in progress-2 of them-ask for BU en rt. first one encountered in res-uncoop, refuses to show ID-(gun drawn on entry please) , he gets tazed or OCed (or if a weapon shows he gets shot) and cuffed. wait for back and then clear the rest of the res. at gunpoint. Sort out the rest of who he is after you're code 4! (Loudly verbalize all commands and make sure your digital recorder is rolling)

So Crowley was actually being pretty low key at risk of his own neck........
And Gates/Obama would really be yelling if the above tactics were followed! (Too bad!)

Hmmm, OK I figure someone here's gonna pick apart the above tactics
So I'll just say it now-then please don't work patrol cause you probably won't last long!

[Andy9o8 0]

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Gates is a racists. Read his past comments and listen to his interviews.

To which ones in particular are you referring? Links would be helpful, please, so we don't have to guess which ones you mean. Thanks.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

The cop was responding to a possible burglary. He was making sure Gates' home was not being robbed. What happened between them is known only to them.
But if Gates and Obama think the cops acted poorly or "stupidly", I say let Mr. Obama and Mr. Gates respond to the next call of a possible burglary by themselves.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[futuredivot 0]

Yeah, If I'm looking for a house to rob, I'm picking Gates's. Bet that the response time won't break any records.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[likearock 1]

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if she couldn't tell what race they were, then that blows my hypothesis out of the water. i still belive gates is an asshole though.

There's no way of really knowing that without meeting the guy.

Agreed. The man was confronted inside his own home, and then he plain lost his temper. Who has never lost his temper? Who has never acted like an asshole when doing so? When Christ lost his temper at the moneylenders in the temple, some of them probably said "Gee, what an asshole." And that was Christ, mind you.

Losing your temper is one thing. Making up a charge of racism and trashing someone as a racist in order to cover your ass is quite something else. Find us something in the the New Testament that shows Christ doing that.

As is abundantly clear now, especially after hearing those 911 tapes, race was not an issue in this incident except in Gates' mind.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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if she couldn't tell what race they were, then that blows my hypothesis out of the water. i still belive gates is an asshole though.

There's no way of really knowing that without meeting the guy.

Agreed. The man was confronted inside his own home, and then he plain lost his temper. Who has never lost his temper? Who has never acted like an asshole when doing so? When Christ lost his temper at the moneylenders in the temple, some of them probably said "Gee, what an asshole." And that was Christ, mind you.

its not like the guy was just sitting in his living room watching tv only to have the cops bust down his door and haul him away. he just broke in to his house. crowley was leaving and gates followed him outside and continued to be beligerant. the part that really makes him an asshole is the accusations that race had somethng to do with it.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Andy9o8 0]

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Losing your temper is one thing. Making up a charge of racism and trashing someone as a racist in order to cover your ass is quite something else. Find us something in the the New Testament that shows Christ doing that.

Well, the New Testament is rather "pro-Christ", I think most would agree; so I doubt that such a personal lapse on his part, even if it occurred, would have been candidly portrayed as such. He was a revolutionary who rabble-roused against "The Man" (the Romans and the locally-entrenched religious hierarchy) quite a bit, often not very tactfully. Jesus was often addressed as "Rabbi", which meant "teacher" - in essence, if you think about it, he was the 1st-Century Judean equivalent of a liberal, anti-establishment college professor. Hmm. Anyhow, his tactics did ultimately get him into a heap of trouble with the authorities, now didn't it? And I don't believe those charges were ever dropped.

[Andy9o8 0]

I think Colin Powell takes a very reasonable, well-balanced approach to this:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/28/powell.palin/index.html#cnnSTCText

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Powell: Both Gates, police could have handled things better

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Secretary of State Colin Powell said Tuesday that he has been the victim of racial profiling but believes Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. could have been more patient with the police officer who arrested him.

At the same time, Powell also faulted the Cambridge (Massachusetts) Police Department for escalating the situation beyond a reasonable level.

"I think Skip [Gates], perhaps in this instance, might have waited a while, come outside, talked to the officer and that might have been the end of it," Powell said in an interview with CNN's Larry King.

"I think he should have reflected on whether or not this was the time to make that big a deal.

"I think in this case the situation was made much more difficult on the part of the Cambridge Police Department," Powell said. "Once they felt they had to bring Dr. Gates out of the house and to handcuff him, I would've thought at that point, some adult supervision would have stepped in and said 'OK look, it is his house. Let's not take this any further, take the handcuffs off, good night Dr. Gates.' "

Gates, a top African-American scholar, was arrested July 16 for disorderly conduct outside his Cambridge, Massachusetts, home after police responded to a report of a possible burglary. The charge was later dropped.

Powell said that under the circumstances, Gates may not have been in the appropriate frame of mind to best handle the situation.

"He was just home from China, just home from New York. All he wanted to do was get to bed. His door was jammed and so he was in a mood where he said something," Powell said.

He recalled a lesson he was taught as a child: "When you're faced with an officer who is trying to do his job and get to the bottom of something, this is not the time to get in an argument with him.

"There is no African-American in this county who has not been exposed to this kind of situation," Powell said. "Do you get angry? Yes. Do you manifest that anger? Do you protest? Do you try to get things fixed? But it's the better course of action to try and take it easy and don't let your anger make the current situation worse."

The former secretary of state said he has been racially profiled "many times," including an incident that took place while he was the national security adviser to President Reagan.

"Nobody thought I could possibly be the national security adviser to the president. I was just a black guy at Reagan National Airport," Powell said. "And it was only when I went to the counter and said, 'Is my guest here waiting for me?' that someone said, 'Oh, you're Gen. Powell.' It was inconceivable to him that a black guy could be the national security adviser."

When asked how he dealt with the situation, Powell said, "You just suck it up -- what are you going to do? It was a teaching point for him. 'Yes, I'm the national security adviser, I'm black, and watch, I can do the job.' "