mnealtx 0 #226 June 3, 2009 QuoteQuote Hey, YOU'RE the one that made the abortion=job offer argument - don't blame ME when I show you where it breaks down. Well, that's you who claimed that "fetus don't have the option of accepting the job (birth) or not (abortion)". That's why I asked you how you suggest we could ask fetus' about it. Seems like you have no answer. Just following your (crappy) analogy - looks like there's not much "choice" then...at least not with the person that has to pay the ultimate price.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #227 June 3, 2009 Quote Just following your (crappy) analogy - looks like there's not much "choice" then...at least not with the person that has to pay the ultimate price. There is a choice. It's just not a kind of choice you (or Lord Jizzas) would approve, but it doesn't make it invalid. Look on suicide numbers over the world - not everyone wants to live.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #228 June 3, 2009 Quote Look on suicide numbers over the world - not everyone wants to live. At least they had a CHANCE to live before they decided to check out.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #229 June 4, 2009 Quote That's just a circular argument. The short of it is equality. To the best that anatomy allows anyway. Men and women must have the same choices in terms of having sex. So that's given. Do it or not. Protect yourself or not. They should have the same choices for any decision point afterwards then. This is tougher isn't it? It's easy to give the women an out but lay the cost on the man if the woman opts to have the child. Typical of people with a very patriarchical and male dominant viewpoint. (is it spelled 'misogynistic'?) So - The women is to have the ability to correct her mistake with a very extreme and morally undefinable act. But the Man doesn't have that option too? UNFAIR If one really considers that the woman has the sole choice to bear the child, then one must concede that the man doesn't have that option IN ANY WAY AT ALL. Therefore, his 'choice' is to also to totally reject his responsibilities in the matter as well. A different, but equivalent, type of 'abortion' - also morally difficult to define and equally reprehensible. But, really, why should he also be 'punished' with a mistake? The man can't choose for the woman to have the baby. So the woman should not be able to choose for the man to 'have' that baby as well. Equal - at all times. The current proposed policies are hypocritical. The woman chooses, but the man doesn't. And people don't even realize how 'male dominated' that attitude is..... You do believe in equality? Don't you? It's easier to assume the landmine=men thing. And more fun. I think it's more accurate in many cases too. Some time ago, in a different thread, I brought up something that is the corollary "pro-chioce" agrument with respect to male involvement in un-planned pregnancies. I believe, and still do, that unmarried women who decide to take an unplanned pregnancy to term and raise the child themselves, have every right to do so. The male partner SHOULD have the ability to opt out all parental responsibility, including child support and educational expenses. The male equivalent of ending responsibility for an unplanned pregnancy, AKA male choice. This was not exactly a popular position. I came to this conclusion after reading about a guy in Colorado who got stung for well over 100K for a child that he had no knowlege of. He had a one night stand that produced a child. The mother never contacted him after the one night stand. He went on about his business until about 10-11 years later. The mother had filed for welfare/public assistance and listed the biological father as the father of the kid. The state paid the weasel woman, and went after the bio dad for support payments on a child he never knew he had. No shock that the state won and the guy was on the hook for the $$$. That was and is just flat out wrong. Morally, ethically, and totally wrong. It may have been legal. It was WRONG, in a major way. Male choice is as valid as female choice. It DOES work both ways, or at least, it should. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #230 June 4, 2009 Quote At least they had a CHANCE to live before they decided to check out. I personally knew a few people who wished they were never born (and they all are dead now), so not everyone is happy they had a chance to live. And they were not asked if they wanted to live either. There are also cases like multiple Catholic pedophile priests, and the world would be definitely better if their mothers aborted them.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #231 June 4, 2009 QuoteIf you oppose abortion on the ground that "human life should be valued either from conception or implantation until natural death" (a general Christian style pro-life belief), then you should oppose death penalty and war conflicts on the same ground. I think you are (perhaps intentionally) misstating the pro-life position. The distinction, as I understand it (note that I may be wrong, as this is not my position), is that the child, infant or fetus is an innocent. The criminal on death row, or the enemy soldier, is not.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,792 #232 June 4, 2009 >Why is a viable fetus not a legal person but a comatose >person on life support is? Comatose people are indeed "legal people" But it's a good example, because in both cases they don't have as much of a right to life. In both cases, their closest family member(s) can decide when to terminate life support, even if they have not expressed their wishes directly. In both cases, if someone else kills them in the course of (say) a robbery, it's still murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porpoishead 6 #233 June 4, 2009 also a comatose person has a certificate of live birth and actually lived... walked the earth, paid taxes, was a citizen etc.. so to speak at one point. you can't even get a health/life or any insurance policy on a fetus because there is no cerificate of live birth. when my son (my second kid) was born he went to neo natal ICU after delivery because he still had fluid in his lungs. I took the shaft on that one to the tune of some 8k+ because my insurance would not cover him until they had the birth certificate. so does that make the insurance companies pro-choice or pro-life what???if you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #234 June 4, 2009 Quote I think you are (perhaps intentionally) misstating the pro-life position. The problem with so-called "pro-life" movement is that there is no single position shared by everyone. That's why no matter which one you pick up, someone could always say you're misstating the position. Quote The distinction, as I understand it (note that I may be wrong, as this is not my position), is that the child, infant or fetus is an innocent. The criminal on death row, or the enemy soldier, is not. Yes, I know about one of the pro-life twisted politically-biased wordplays like "innocent human life" (they use it to fight abortion while still supporting death penalty and wars). Personally I find it a twisted . Not everyone on a death row is criminal, the governments have been executing innocent people in past. An enemy soldier is even worse example, as a lot of people who suffer during wars are actually women and children. But this is usually ok, and they're not considered innocent because they do not pray Jesus. Hypocrisy in action.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porpoishead 6 #235 June 4, 2009 it's all a hypocrisy... how many hardcore pro-lifers you think have insurance do business with, or even work for insurance companies insurance companies do not recognize fetuses... by this logic the hardcore pro-lifer should not associate, but to hell with the fetuses when it's not in their best interest or stands in their way of personal gain I guessif you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #236 June 4, 2009 QuoteBut this is usually ok, and they're not considered innocent because they do not pray Jesus. Hypocrisy in action. Why don't you just go ahead and show us all the military training manual that says that, m'kay?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #237 June 4, 2009 QuoteThat's just a circular argument. What is a circular argument? Seriously I have no idea to what you are referring … your hypothetical scenario posits two options: effectively assume no autonomy for men or deny autonomy to women, Those are false options. QuoteThe short of it is equality. To the best that anatomy allows anyway. Yep, that’s what I’ve suggested. QuoteIt's easier to assume the landmine=men thing. And more fun. I think it's more accurate in many cases too. If that’s what your want to argue for, that’s your argument. Not mine. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #238 June 4, 2009 Quote ago, in a different thread, I brought up something that is the corollary "pro-chioce" agrument with respect to male involvement in un-planned pregnancies. sorry, I guess I'm pounding that same drum for entertainment purposes, but now that I'm arguing it, I'm starting to think it makes more and more sense ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #239 June 4, 2009 Quoteso does that make the insurance companies pro-choice or pro-life what??? pro-profit, but they are a business and apparently you had a crappy policy ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #240 June 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe short of it is equality. To the best that anatomy allows anyway. Yep, that’s what I’ve suggested. Quote so, for the sake of equality, then you do agree the man should be able to 'opt' out of supporting a child that he disagrees with having? it's the only equivalent to the woman being the sole decider to abort or not both are autonomous, both do not force the other partner to take part in their choice edit: the 'circular argument' thing was just acknowledging that you rewrote your original note. I read it the first time - it wasn't any better or worse the 2nd time other, my last post posits a way that allows autonomy for both parties on the subject - it's just not very PC. That's a far cry from what you say I'm pushing. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites porpoishead 6 #241 June 4, 2009 pro-profit right on I can agree with that name me a policy then, any policy that covers a fetus or a fresh out the womb newborn.. do you have any kids by the way????if you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #242 June 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe short of it is equality. To the best that anatomy allows anyway. Yep, that’s what I’ve suggested. so, for the sake of equality, then you do agree the man should be able to 'opt' out of supporting a child that he disagrees with having? it's the only equivalent to the woman being the sole decider to abort or not No, it's not. You're still setting up two false choices. And you're still also aggregating the issues of a women's autonomy with responsibility for a child. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #243 June 4, 2009 Quotepro-profit right on I can agree with that name me a policy then, any policy that covers a fetus or a fresh out the womb newborn.. do you have any kids by the way???? yes, she was a preemie, and she was 100% covered from day 1 at the best NICU in the states Bethesda Naval Hospital ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #244 June 4, 2009 Quote>Why is a viable fetus not a legal person but a comatose >person on life support is? Comatose people are indeed "legal people" But it's a good example, because in both cases they don't have as much of a right to life. In both cases, their closest family member(s) can decide when to terminate life support, even if they have not expressed their wishes directly. In both cases, if someone else kills them in the course of (say) a robbery, it's still murder. So why are comatose people on life support considered legal people but viable fetuses aren't? PS: Who (exactly) gets to decide to terminate life support?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yjumpinoz 0 #245 June 4, 2009 Don't know if you saw my previous post, but my ex (wife at the time) chose an abortion against my "choice" and I had no recourse to keep the child I contributed DNA to....You can never convince me that is right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #246 June 4, 2009 QuoteNo, it's not. You're still setting up two false choices. And you're still also aggregating the issues of a women's autonomy with responsibility for a child. nonsense she aborts, the problem is over she doesn't abort, she has to raise a child he 'aborts', the problem is over he doesn't, he has to raise a child 4 possibilities 1 she aborts, he aborts - no kid, everyone moves on 2 she aborts, he doesn't - his decision is pointless, everyone moves on 3 she has the kid, he 'aborts'- she raises as a single parent 4 she has the kid, he doesn't 'abort' - they come to some arrangement to jointly raise the kid (includes the options of 2 parents, single female parent with financial support, single male parent, single male parent with financial support, etc etc etc) it's still not perfect parity, option 2 leaves the father with a powerless position - but we'll let the 'her body' trump the alternative which we both find distasteful but in today's world, #3 is not allowed and that's the equivalent of forcing the woman to bear a child she wants to abort in short, you want to remove any choice from the man - and relegate him to only responding in the 'approved' manner to whatever the woman chooses that's anti-choice for him I'll completely join the choice crowd as soon as they make it non-sexist I only partly join it now because of the exceptions. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #247 June 4, 2009 Quote Next time you see another anti-choice person, ask him how many kids has he adopted, or how long has he been a foster parent. Next time you see an anti-life person, ask them if they support the legalization of drugs, same sex marriages, the blank panthers, the ku klux klan, etc... "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #248 June 4, 2009 Quote Quote Next time you see another anti-choice person, ask him how many kids has he adopted, or how long has he been a foster parent. Next time you see an anti-life person, ask them if they support the legalization of drugs, same sex marriages, the blank panthers, the ku klux klan, etc... gotta watch out for the Blank Panthers - tough crowd, and they really blend in. Not very opinionated though ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #249 June 4, 2009 QuoteDon't know if you saw my previous post, but my ex (wife at the time) chose an abortion against my "choice" and I had no recourse to keep the child I contributed DNA to....You can never convince me that is right. I am honestly very sorry for your experience. In a perfect, idealistic world all children would be wanted, well-cared for, and loved. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #250 June 4, 2009 QuoteWhy don't you just go ahead and show us all the military training manual that says that, m'kay? Where did I say military is pro-life? (not to mention most countries around the world still have mandatory draft).* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 10 of 20 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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porpoishead 6 #241 June 4, 2009 pro-profit right on I can agree with that name me a policy then, any policy that covers a fetus or a fresh out the womb newborn.. do you have any kids by the way????if you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #242 June 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe short of it is equality. To the best that anatomy allows anyway. Yep, that’s what I’ve suggested. so, for the sake of equality, then you do agree the man should be able to 'opt' out of supporting a child that he disagrees with having? it's the only equivalent to the woman being the sole decider to abort or not No, it's not. You're still setting up two false choices. And you're still also aggregating the issues of a women's autonomy with responsibility for a child. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #243 June 4, 2009 Quotepro-profit right on I can agree with that name me a policy then, any policy that covers a fetus or a fresh out the womb newborn.. do you have any kids by the way???? yes, she was a preemie, and she was 100% covered from day 1 at the best NICU in the states Bethesda Naval Hospital ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #244 June 4, 2009 Quote>Why is a viable fetus not a legal person but a comatose >person on life support is? Comatose people are indeed "legal people" But it's a good example, because in both cases they don't have as much of a right to life. In both cases, their closest family member(s) can decide when to terminate life support, even if they have not expressed their wishes directly. In both cases, if someone else kills them in the course of (say) a robbery, it's still murder. So why are comatose people on life support considered legal people but viable fetuses aren't? PS: Who (exactly) gets to decide to terminate life support?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #245 June 4, 2009 Don't know if you saw my previous post, but my ex (wife at the time) chose an abortion against my "choice" and I had no recourse to keep the child I contributed DNA to....You can never convince me that is right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #246 June 4, 2009 QuoteNo, it's not. You're still setting up two false choices. And you're still also aggregating the issues of a women's autonomy with responsibility for a child. nonsense she aborts, the problem is over she doesn't abort, she has to raise a child he 'aborts', the problem is over he doesn't, he has to raise a child 4 possibilities 1 she aborts, he aborts - no kid, everyone moves on 2 she aborts, he doesn't - his decision is pointless, everyone moves on 3 she has the kid, he 'aborts'- she raises as a single parent 4 she has the kid, he doesn't 'abort' - they come to some arrangement to jointly raise the kid (includes the options of 2 parents, single female parent with financial support, single male parent, single male parent with financial support, etc etc etc) it's still not perfect parity, option 2 leaves the father with a powerless position - but we'll let the 'her body' trump the alternative which we both find distasteful but in today's world, #3 is not allowed and that's the equivalent of forcing the woman to bear a child she wants to abort in short, you want to remove any choice from the man - and relegate him to only responding in the 'approved' manner to whatever the woman chooses that's anti-choice for him I'll completely join the choice crowd as soon as they make it non-sexist I only partly join it now because of the exceptions. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #247 June 4, 2009 Quote Next time you see another anti-choice person, ask him how many kids has he adopted, or how long has he been a foster parent. Next time you see an anti-life person, ask them if they support the legalization of drugs, same sex marriages, the blank panthers, the ku klux klan, etc... "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #248 June 4, 2009 Quote Quote Next time you see another anti-choice person, ask him how many kids has he adopted, or how long has he been a foster parent. Next time you see an anti-life person, ask them if they support the legalization of drugs, same sex marriages, the blank panthers, the ku klux klan, etc... gotta watch out for the Blank Panthers - tough crowd, and they really blend in. Not very opinionated though ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #249 June 4, 2009 QuoteDon't know if you saw my previous post, but my ex (wife at the time) chose an abortion against my "choice" and I had no recourse to keep the child I contributed DNA to....You can never convince me that is right. I am honestly very sorry for your experience. In a perfect, idealistic world all children would be wanted, well-cared for, and loved. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #250 June 4, 2009 QuoteWhy don't you just go ahead and show us all the military training manual that says that, m'kay? Where did I say military is pro-life? (not to mention most countries around the world still have mandatory draft).* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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