Coreece 190 #1 April 14, 2009 Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,436 #2 April 14, 2009 It was a well-coordinated and well-thought-out plan implemented by religious extremists. It is no more worthy of honor than any other mass killing, which is to say that it's not worthy of honor. Worthy of praise? Not really. Worthy of consideration? Yes, which is why we have taken measures to prevent it from happening again. "Cowards incapable of dealing with reality?" I wish they _had_ been cowards incapable of dealing with reality; 3000 people would be alive today if they had been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squarecanopy 0 #3 April 14, 2009 QuoteIt was a well-coordinated and well-thought-out plan implemented by religious extremists. It is no more worthy of honor than any other mass killing, which is to say that it's not worthy of honor. Worthy of praise? Not really. Worthy of consideration? Yes, which is why we have taken measures to prevent it from happening again. "Cowards incapable of dealing with reality?" I wish they _had_ been cowards incapable of dealing with reality; 3000 people would be alive today if they had been. Well said. Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piper17 1 #4 April 14, 2009 Ditto"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #5 April 14, 2009 Excellent. A flawed poll in which you are going to try to justify your misunderstanding of the word coward. Luckily, I found an equivalent poll to help you out: A.) The air that we breath is a magical substance comprised mostly out of Jimbonium (which I understand to be a combination of frogs and carrots). B.) The air that we breath is a composition of nitrogen, oxygon, carbon dioxide, methane, etc... and the holocaust doesn't exist. See where I'm going here? That's right, straight to a dictionary to look up coward. .jim "Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #6 April 14, 2009 Poorly chosen poll options IMO - neither of which cover the reality correctly. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #7 April 14, 2009 QuotePoorly chosen poll options IMO - neither of which cover the reality correctly. Apparently I lack the ability to communicate with these carbon units... I'm just trying to clear Tzu Sun's name.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #8 April 14, 2009 we is too thick, perchance (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #9 April 14, 2009 QuoteIt was a well-coordinated and well-thought-out plan implemented by religious extremists. It is no more worthy of honor than any other mass killing, which is to say that it's not worthy of honor. Worthy of praise? Not really. Worthy of consideration? Yes, which is why we have taken measures to prevent it from happening again. "Cowards incapable of dealing with reality?" I wish they _had_ been cowards incapable of dealing with reality; 3000 people would be alive today if they had been. What he said.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #10 April 14, 2009 QuoteI'm just trying to clear Tzu Sun's name. What has he been accused of, aside from being, arguably, the greatest military commander in recorded history? There is no reason that the lessons Sun Tzu left for posterity can only be used for causes which you consider to be good.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #11 April 14, 2009 I think anyone voting for the first option is just trying to piss off Americans. It was very well planned and executed, it was an act of mass murder.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #12 April 15, 2009 QuoteWhat has he been accused of, aside from being, arguably, the greatest military commander in recorded history? There is no reason that the lessons Sun Tzu left for posterity can only be used for causes which you consider to be good. Well I doubt those lessons could be used for terrorism... Tzu Sun: QuoteConfront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory. QuoteIn the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. QuoteStrategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. QuoteThe general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom. QuoteThe supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. I don't think Tzu Sun would've been proud of the 9/11 attacks nor do I think he would consider them a brilliant idea...and that is of which he is accused.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #13 April 15, 2009 What a piss ant poll "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #14 April 15, 2009 what shit-faced reply....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #15 April 15, 2009 QuoteWell I doubt those lessons could be used for terrorism... Not only can they be, they were. (You don't do Sun Tzu's wisdom justice when you take passages out of context as you have.) QuoteTzu Sun: QuoteConfront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory. I don't think his advice about marching armies onto "death ground" is applicable to the attack. QuoteQuoteIn the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. Nor does it appear that there was any intent to take over the US, so Sun Tzu's reasoning behind that passage is not applicable. Nonetheless, using hijacked planes as missiles the hijackers were able to hit their targets with reasonable precision to maximize the effect of their attack without needing to "shatter and destroy" the US. QuoteQuoteStrategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. That one is quite applicable. Bin Laden stated that his strategy for defeating the US was to destroy our economy. He planned to do so by spending $1 for every $1 million dollars the US spends fighting him. One example of tactics used to implement that strategy was to get his pilot-hijackers to train in the US, and use American commercial jets to destroy highly symbolic buildings located on very expensive real estate. Let's not forget that the box cutters used as weapons are incredibly inexpensive, as combat weapons go. QuoteQuoteThe general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom. What actions, exactly, have bin Laden or other al Qaeda leaders made that offer indication that they covet fame, in your opinion? Are you suggesting that al Qaeda leaders have not engaged in strategic retreat, when necessary, in order to fight another day? QuoteQuoteThe supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. Did you see al Qaeda battling on the streets of NYC? Did you notice that the US is fighting war on two fronts, neither of which are in locations controlled by al Qaeda? Did you happen to notice the price tag of those wars? Do you think those wars are good for our economy? QuoteI don't think Tzu Sun would've been proud of the 9/11 attacks nor do I think he would consider them a brilliant idea...and that is of which he is accused. Strategies promoted by Sun Tzu have been implemented rather well by al Qaeda leaders. My comment that Sun Tzu would have been proud was limited to those implementations. It had nothing to do with whether or not I agreed with al Qaeda's actions; such opinions would be completely irrelevant to an objective evaluation of al Qaeda's attack. I didn't accuse Sun Tzu of anything, except being (arguably) history's greatest military leader. His treatise offers advice that can be effectively implemented by a wide variety of people, not just military leaders.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #16 April 15, 2009 QuoteYou don't do Sun Tzu's wisdom justice when you take passages out of context as you have. Ummm....they're pretty clear quotes. The fact is that Al Qaeda would have to take his quotes out of context in order to justify them for their causes....that is of course if they ever read his material....Do you have any reference for that? I'm just gonna mark your response as a fail and get on with my life.....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 187 #17 April 15, 2009 You make it too complicated. How about: A) Heroes. B) Assholes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #18 April 15, 2009 QuoteUmmm....they're pretty clear quotes. In and of themselves? No, they're not. They lack context. Yet, most of them still clearly apply. You also didn't quote many, many more passages that are even more applicable, his advice regarding logistics and utilizing the enemy's supplies. QuoteThe fact is that Al Qaeda would have to take his quotes out of context in order to justify them for their causes. Sun Tzu didn't make judgement calls about causes. It is not the general's place to decide why a country (in this case, an organization) should go to war. You seem to be caught up in the incorrect idea that Sun Tzu's treatise can only be applied for just causes, and that is absolutely incorrect. So … QuoteI'm just gonna mark your response as a fail ...Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #19 April 15, 2009 QuoteYou make it too complicated. How about: A) Heroes. B) Assholes. That would depend entirely upon ones perspective. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #20 April 15, 2009 QuoteYou seem to be caught up in the incorrect idea that Sun Tzu's treatise can only be applied for just causes, and that is absolutely incorrect. No, I'm caught up in your idea that what Al Qaeda did was brilliant and something to be proud of.... Concede that point and then maybe we can talk.... Until then.....fail.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,436 #21 April 15, 2009 >You make it too complicated. How about: >A) Heroes. >B) Assholes. Unfortunately, not only are those not mutually exclusive, they are sometimes concurrent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 187 #22 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou make it too complicated. How about: A) Heroes. B) Assholes. That would depend entirely upon ones perspective. And thus the poll. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #23 April 15, 2009 I would have been able to vote if you'd added the following choice: "Was a brilliant Art of War performed with nearly flawless execution as well as a disgraceful act against defenseless non-militants" You can be a total, disgusting, evil, asshole and still carry out a brilliantly effective operation at the same time. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #24 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou seem to be caught up in the incorrect idea that Sun Tzu's treatise can only be applied for just causes, and that is absolutely incorrect. No, I'm caught up in your idea that what Al Qaeda did was brilliant and something to be proud of.... Concede that point and then maybe we can talk.... Until then.....fail. The application of Sun Tzu's wisdom was brilliant. That's not the same thing as saying the attack was brilliant. I never said we should be proud of al Qaeda's attack. I said Sun Tzu would have been proud to see how well al Quada applied his teachings with the attack. Anyone who is familiar with his work (i.e. has given his treatise more than a cursory read or two) should be able to see that. That does not and should not imply that Sun Tzu would have been proud that they decided to attack. Personally, I'm not familiar with Sun Tzu's ideologies. He generally left them out of The Art of War, and addressed strategies and tactics from the perspective of military leaders without respect to the political reasons a general might be charged with leading an army into war. You keep trying to make this about ideologies. It's not.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #25 April 15, 2009 I think "tactics without strategy" is pretty much the definition of a suicide bomber attacking a civilian population. Also, AQ doesn't have an end game, not a realistic one, and they have no plans to take anything in tact. I'll give you that they've shown themselves to be resourceful, but that's about where the comparison to Sun Tzu ends. TB, on the other hand, has made their battle one of logistics, have shown they know when to advance and retreat, and have a very successful communication strategy that has allowed them to take large areas without battling the local populace. TB != AQ. That's actually why the battle in Af/Pak has been, and will be, more difficult than the battle in Iraq. I'd give far more credit to Omar than I would to Bin Laden. (but none to either in terms of their cause. I think they're both religious nuts.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
