Do you think America is a "free" country

[AdamLanes 1]

Maybe you like to have rapists, thieves, and murderers running around your community Billvon, but I for one (and I think I am in the majority) do not. Do you not voluntarily pay for things that you want? Or do you initiate violence, like the government, to get what you want?

[AdamLanes 1]

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OK. So you are an EMT and a twelve year old child is struck by a car near where you are working. She doesn't have insurance. Do you just drive away?

No, but do you advocate the government pointing a gun at me at the same time?

[billvon 2,435]

>Maybe you like to have rapists, thieves, and murderers running around
>your community Billvon . . .

Not at all! Our police department does a pretty good job there.

>Do you not voluntarily pay for things that you want?

I do voluntarily pay for things that I, myself, want. I also voluntarily pay taxes for things that we, as a community/state/country, want.

>No, but do you advocate the government pointing a gun at me at the same time?

Nope, unless you're committing a crime.

[AdamLanes 1]

So are you Bolas advocating the government to initiate violence against me to get what you want?

[AdamLanes 1]

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No, but do you advocate the government pointing a gun at me at the same time?

Nope, unless you're committing a crime.

And would you consider it a crime to force someone to pay for something that they do not want?

[Bolas 5]

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So are you Bolas advocating the government to initiate violence against me to get what you want?

Assume you're still talking taxes:

If peacable means don't work then yes. If you're going to have rules and laws they need to be enforcable and enforced, hopefully equally. What level of escalation it goes to is up to you.

Otherwise why would people pay? Sure some may pay "because it's the right thing" but others do to avoid the consequences of not.

However if it became known that if you threatened the tax collector they just went away and never tried to collect again, everyone would start threatening them and nothing would be collected.

You wanna see a prime example of no consequences and it's impact?

Look at our education system: "No child left behind"

Students do nothing, disrupt class, don't do homework, yet they still advance... At least until high school where suddenly there is consequences. The problem is it's way too late as they've not been taught that there are consequences.

A good analogy would be telling someone to take their hand off an unlit stove over and over then turning it up to high. They are understandably shocked and confused.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[DanG 1]

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And would you consider it a crime to force someone to pay for something that they do not want?

That depends. Did that person enter into a contract promising to pay for the thing? Have they now, after enjoying the benefits of said thing, decided they don't want to pay for it?

If so, then no, it is not a crime to force that person to pay for the thing that they now do not want.

I suspect you know where both of the arguments lead. Yours leads to anarchy. The other leads to society.

- Dan G

[AdamLanes 1]

No, the person never wanted the thing they are being forced to pay for.

[DanG 1]

Um, yeah, doesn't matter if they wanted it or not. They got it, and they'll continue to get it in the future. Like someone else said, if you don't want to live in a society, find a deserted island and set up shop.

- Dan G

[AdamLanes 1]

So you are okay with someone pointing a gun at you, taking your money by force, and spending it on anything they want? Because what is the difference?

[billvon 2,435]

>And would you consider it a crime to force someone to pay for something
>that they do not want?

If it is something they agreed to buy, or something they or their legal representative voted for? If yes, then it would be appropriate to force them to pay for it. To not do so would be fraud.

Your underlying assumption seems to be "if we just made taxes voluntary, everyone would pay them and everyone would be happy." Communist Russia showed how much that _doesn't_ work. Hey, in an ideal society, everyone just contributes what they can through the goodness of their hearts, and since everyone's heart is so very good, we'll have enough labor/money to take care of that 12 year old who got hit by the car, that troublesome Al Qaeda and that busy sky over New York.

Then reality hits. People don't want to pay ANYTHING. They will pay the absolute minimum they can get away with. Air traffic control? Why the hell should I pay for that? I'm not flying anywhere in the next week. Military spending? We don't need to spend much money there. Heck, we've got lots of ships and planes. We can go a few years without funding them while I save up for that house I really want.

Fire departments? Sure, I'll give them $20. What? They need a new fire truck? Hey, I'm not giving you any more money until I have enough money to build that new house! Then they can protect that.

Center for disease control? For what disease? I can't even pronounce that. Hey, I'm all for public health, but I got this $3000 here, and that new bay window is going to cost $3000. I'll give them some money some other time.

And so it goes. Taxes are not around because people want to piss you off, they're around because the societies that DON'T have taxes collapse (or are taken over) when they become undefended. There's a reason utopian societies (from Marx's communism to Rand's libertarianism to Huxleys's engineered utopia) don't exist (or don't exist for long.) They don't work.

[billvon 2,435]

>So you are okay with someone pointing a gun at you, taking your money by
>force, and spending it on anything they want? Because what is the difference?

Are you OK with a Chinese soldier pointing a gun at you and taking all your money and land by force?

[AdamLanes 1]

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Your underlying assumption seems to be "if we just made taxes voluntary, everyone would pay them and everyone would be happy." Communist Russia showed how much that _doesn't_ work. Hey, in an ideal society, everyone just contributes what they can through the goodness of their hearts

I can't believe you just said that Communist Russia made taxes voluntary!!!! WTF?!?! I'm done here

[wmw999 2,149]

How's the saying go?

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Freedom isn't free

Yeah, that's it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,149]

Bullshit. You just don't want to engage past the "I don't want to pay for whatever I don't use" stuff.

How much do you think it would cost to have a system to let everyone pay only for what they thought was important?

And what happens when the unforseen consequences of the underfunded mandates begin to show. Little things like food inspection (we're already seeing that).

It's so much better to pay a lot when stuff is really down the shitter than it is to pay for it up front before you need it. Kind of like insurance -- it's much cheaper if you just don't buy it in the first place.


Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DanG 1]

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So you are okay with someone pointing a gun at you, taking your money by force, and spending it on anything they want? Because what is the difference?

Now you're just being silly.

We all understand that you've come to the realization (guess what, you're not the first one) that the power of the law is ultimately the power to do physical violence. It's not a new concept, and it's not a particularly useful concept either.

Take your arguments into the real world and perhaps we can have a productive discussion.

- Dan G

[Capt.Slog 0]

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WTF?!?! I'm done here

May I suggest you'd like Afghanistan or Uzbekistan. Pretty much everyone is on their own over there.

[billvon 2,435]

>I can't believe you just said that Communist Russia made taxes voluntary!

They didn't. They effectively made WORK voluntary. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." You may recognize that quotation.

One of the underlying principles of communism is that people will voluntarily contribute to society according to their abilities. In fact, it is half the formula that communism is based on, that people will simply want to give labor for the good of all. It didn't work. When people didn't see a rather immediate return for their efforts, or those efforts provided only a small part of a faraway goal, most people preferred not to work. Let some other farm produce all that wheat. I'm tired and my TV show is on. Besides, I'm not getting anything out of it!

That is precisely the approach you are taking to support of city/state/federal government. You figure people will just want to voluntarily support the military, and the CDC, and air traffic control, even though they get no immediate tangible benefit from doing so. It didn't work in the USSR and it won't work here.

[cliffwhite 0]

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How's the saying go?

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Freedom isn't free

Yeah, that's it.

Wendy W.

Well how much should we have to pay to live in a dictatorship?
I don't know if you read the news today but according to the memos that's what we've been under since late 2001.

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[cliffwhite 0]

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Um, yeah, doesn't matter if they wanted it or not. They got it, and they'll continue to get it in the future. Like someone else said, if you don't want to live in a society, find a deserted island and set up shop.

Let's see Dan, do you know that not one dollar of income tax collected goes to running the country?
Yes, unbelievably that is true! Every dollar of income tax collected by the IRS goes to pay interest to the Federal Reserve Bank, a private ,for profit banking firm.

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[DanG 1]

No, I didn't know that. Where does the money come from to run the country?

- Dan G

[cliffwhite 0]

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No, I didn't know that. Where does the money come from to run the country?

Mostly it's borrowed , thus the interest payments. Do you know where the Federal Reserve gets the money to lend the US?

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[billvon 2,435]

>Do you know where the Federal Reserve gets the money to lend the US?

Primarily from us.

[cliffwhite 0]

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>Do you know where the Federal Reserve gets the money to lend the US?

Primarily from us.

Oh No,No,No. While they do sell treasury bills and government bonds to raise money, the majority of the money lent to the US government by the Federal Reserve Bank is created out of thin air. A simple keyboard stroke and the Fed creates money. Basicly they * monetize* an I.O.U.

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[akarunway 1]

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>So you are okay with someone pointing a gun at you, taking your money by
>force, and spending it on anything they want? Because what is the difference?

Are you OK with a Chinese soldier pointing a gun at you and taking all your money and land by force?

Here in the U.S. they just call it eminent domain. Sounds better.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.